[arcura]

JoeT777,
Excellent.
That IS a keeper.
With your permission I shall pass it on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[ordinaryguy]

ordinaryguy,
When Jesus said, "The kingdom is within you" He was speaking to His apostles who were to become the first bishops of His Church Kingdom on this earth.

Sorry, but no, he wasn't:

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said...

Whether you "buy" that The Church is God's Kingdom on earth or not does not change the fact that the majority of Christians (over one billion) do believe it and are members of it.

I can't imagine that you really think that the number of people who believe something is an accurate indicator of whether it's true or not. But if you want to go there, even assuming that your tally of one billion in favor is accurate, there are almost seven billion people in the world today, so the proposition loses by a landslide.

[ordinaryguy]

Let start here but first lets look at some context.

There is nothing you have to do first, before seeking the Kingdom within. All your paragraphs of "context" are an elaborate way of keeping the Kingdom of God safely confined to the outer world.

The Kingdom of God is the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the bride of Christ.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this.

[sndbay]

The Kingdom of God is the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the bride of Christ.

JoeT

Joe I would have to question the idea, because The Word in Christ Jesus is not limited to the Roman Catholic Church. Revelation tells us of seven churches or candlesticks. Only two of the seven does God find favor in.

And I would also post that The Word in Christ Jesus says the Kingdom of God is such as little children coming to Christ.

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[arcura]

ordinaryguy,
Yes, I agree that we will disagree on that.
Have a Happy, prosperous New Year,
Fred

[ordinaryguy]

ordinaryguy,
Yes, I agree that we will disagree on that.

Yes, an agreement to disagree is better than endless disputation.

[arcura]

ordinaryguy.
Yes, I do agree with you on that and probably on a lot of other issues.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Joe I would have to question the idea, because The Word in Christ Jesus is not limited to the Roman Catholic Church. Revelation tells us of seven churches or candlesticks. Only two of the seven does God find favor in.

And I would also post that The Word in Christ Jesus says the Kingdom of God is such as little children coming to Christ.

[1] -- Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

[2] -- Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

[3] -- Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

[4] --- Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I couldn't agree with you more on citations 1 through 3 above. Yes, we should encourage children to come to Christ. And yes the nature of the Kingdom of God on earth is much as little children, trusting, loving, unassuming, and unpretentious. These three citations bear more on the nature of the Kingdom of God than showing it as something other than the Catholic Church.

Your fourth citation shows precisely my point; that the Kingdom of God is the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the bride of Christ. What wasn't quoted about the Kingdom of God in this passage was more important than what was.

At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who, thinkest thou, is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus, calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them. And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 18:1-4)

In verse 1 in Matthew chapter 18 is the disciples over who was the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven (A term often used as a metonym for the Kingdom of God. However, Christ's disciples were showing an inordinate pride as the Twelve. And, like children they needed to be reminded of the need for humility. However, we already know the choice for the principal of the Twelve is; the most humble fisherman, Peter. (Cf. Matt 16: 18).

Christ found only 1 in 12 who understood that He was the Messianic King who was God, and even he was to deny Him three times. Thus we see with a lesser portion (1/12th), verus 2/7ths of the Churches in the Book of Revelations that look like a virtual multitude, Christ still completed His ministry, establishing God's Kingdom. Yet “ Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom” (Matt 4:23) Teaching the good news of His Kingdom on earth, Christ “went about all the cities and towns, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease, and every infirmity” (Matt 9: 35) The Messiah told us Himself about his ministry, “… I must preach the kingdom of God: for therefore am I sent. 44 And he was preaching in the synagogues of Galilee. ( Luke 4:43). It's overwhelming clear, the positive portion of Christ's mission was the Kingdom of God.

In fact, the Gospels can't be rightly understood unless we see Christ on his mission, selecting the Twelve Evangelists, selecting and gathering a number of followers, organizing a hierarchy; revealing parts of His hidden teaching (Cf. Matt 13: 11), and sending the Apostles on missions to preach the Kingdom.

So, just how does one reason rightly in their understanding of the Gospel with the Kingdom of God? How then are the scriptures to be read in harmony one with the other unless the Kingdom of God exists here on earth in the form of the Catholic Church? So how does ” free thinking” serve us when we must deny Christ's sacrifice for the Kingdom of God, the bride of Christ? In the exercise of undisciplined thinking, do we not become undisciplined vassals of the Kingdom? And to what reward will this bring us? Again, Disorder in the intellect causes a “disorder in the heart, and vice-versa” and thus disseminates immorality, free morals begets immorality. Good men such as us shy away from immorality, why then would we consider reasoning in an undisciplined fashion, and well beyond the intellectual walls of the Church? Who will protect us outside the City gates?

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
That's anothr good post with good reasonig.
Thanks.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

However, we already know the choice for the principal of the Twelve is; the most humble fisherman, Peter. (Cf. Matt 16: 18).
JoeT

In evident indentity Christ did show in scripture, asking Peter 3 times whether he loved HIM. And because Peter's replied 3 times YES, I love YOU LORD, then God revealed to Peter, Our Father's Will. I do not deny Peter's love for Christ... it was evident! And it did also show evident proof that God reveals to those who love Him...

So, just how does one reason rightly in their understanding of the Gospel with the Kingdom of God? How then are the scriptures to be read in harmony one with the other unless the Kingdom of God exists here on earth in the form of the Catholic Church?
JoeT

I believe in the simplicity of Christ. That we should not deny one child, but receive all that believe in "CHRIST".. Why? because is written in scripture.

Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

AND I would question because it is written, Can our minds be deceived from the simplicity of Christ? The simplicity of evidences offered in scripture.
1. His voice (Jhn 10:27)
2. I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.(Jhn 14:6)
3. For we walk by faith, not by sight ( 2 Cr 5:7)

So how does ” free thinking” serve us when we must deny Christ's sacrifice for the Kingdom of God, the bride of Christ? In the exercise of undisciplined thinking, do we not become undisciplined vassals of the Kingdom? And to what reward will this bring us? Again, Disorder in the intellect causes a “disorder in the heart, and vice-versa” and thus disseminates immorality, free morals begets immorality. Good men such as us shy away from immorality, why then would we consider reasoning in an undisciplined fashion, and well beyond the intellectual walls of the Church? Who will protect us outside the City gates?

I believe in Baptism, for it offers the newness of life. Dead in Christ, to raise as Christ did. For first we do have teaching, in the law which is the lamp of the light. But those who hear His voice and walk in Christ are the ensample of what God's children believe. Love in Christ opens the door that He stands waiting to give. One's heart and mind of free will is built through experiences, and God's teaching along the way that we can reap by that which is sown. The presence of God within us, and with us, by the Holy Spirit. A child of God does the Will of their Father, just as Christ has shown us.
2 Cr 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Scripture does not say be converted to Catholic, but it does say all souls belong to God, and all were given free will, and all must be converted to a child of God. Doing the Will of the Our Father who sent us. A servant to Our Father. ~ In Christ

[JoeT777]

There is nothing you have to do first, before seeking the Kingdom within.

But, this isn't scripturally based. I thought you were one of those who held that our relation with God should be ruled by the Bible alone? Do you suppose that Christ teases us with a kingdom that can't be achieved? The following shows that the Kingdom is to be sought out and that we are to do this first:

1. Luke 12:31 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice: and all these things shall be added unto you. 32 Fear not, little flock, for it hath pleased your...

2. Matt 6: 33 Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow;...

3. Luke 17:20 And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God should come,. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall...

4. Luke 11:9 And I say to you: Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find:... of God cast out devils, doubtless the kingdom of God is come upon you.. .

All your paragraphs of "context" are an elaborate way of keeping the Kingdom of God safely confined to the outer world.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this.

First, I don't make the claim that the Kingdom of God is mine, nor is the intent to withhold citizenship within this Kingdom from anybody. Scripture shows us that it belongs to all who call on it; “whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose it shall preserve it.”

In evident indentity Christ did show in scripture, asking Peter 3 times whether he loved HIM. And because Peter's replied 3 times YES, I love YOU LORD, then God revealed to Peter, Our Father's Will. I do not deny Peter's love for Christ... it was evident! And it did also show evident proof that God reveals to those who love Him...

Yes it was to Peter that it was first revealed that God walked among them. Yes he loved Christ. And if we too love God, then we must first seek out the Kingdom ; and Peter was its first Vicar. But, to know this we first need to see how this Kingdom came to being through Peter and the other Eleven. We know that the Kingdom is a priestly Kingdom of God promised to Moses on Mount Sinai, “and you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (et vos eritis mihi in regnum sacerdotale, et gens sancta.) (Exodus 19:6). There cannot be two Kingdoms of God, thus we see in Matt 21:43 as it were, a changing of the guard from the chosen people of the twelve tribes to Christ's followers and the Twelve Apostles.

The Twelve were not simply priestly ministers of truth; the Twelve were not simply representatives of the 12 tribes. The Apostles were the “loaves of proposition” Unlike the Leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, these twelve were the only loaves that the Son of David, The Messiah, found within his temple. (Cf. 1 Sam 21:6). As you remember David went to the high priest Achimelech for bread. The only bread was the “proposition loaves.” These loves were unleavened, uncommon bread; the holy bread to be consumed (metaphoric vision of the real presence in the Eucharist - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist ) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

"Bread of the faces", i.e. "bread of the presence (of Yahweh)" (Exodus 35:13; 39:35, etc.), also called "holy bread" (1 Samuel 21:6), "bread of piles" (1 Chronicles 9:32; 23:29), "continual bread" (Numbers 4:7), or simply "bread" (Hebrew Version, Exodus 11:23). 'ártoi tês prothéseos, "loaves of the setting forth" (Exodus 35:13; 39:35, etc.) which the Latin Vulgate also adopts in its uniform translation panes propositionis, whence the English expression "loaves of proposition", as found in the Douay and Reims versions (Exodus 35:13, etc.; Matthew 12:4; Mark 2:26; Luke 6:4). The Protestant versions have "shewbread" The loaves of bread spoken of here formed the most important sacrificial offering prescribed by the Mosaic Law. (New Advent) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Loaves of Proposition CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Loaves of Proposition

In Exodus 40 we see the tabernacle (the residence of God) has been set up. A veil or curtain separates the ark from the priests. Loaves of bread were stacked in front of the curtain in two stakes of 6 (12 loaves) in the presence of God. The loaves were in the presence of God, hence the name presence-bread.

“And Moses did all that the Lord had commanded …And he set the table in the tabernacle of the testimony, at the north side, without the veil, 21 Setting there in order the loaves of proposition, as the Lord had commanded Moses”

Christ being the fulfillment of the Old Testament which we know requires each and everything He did to be related to the temple as prophase requires. Holding this view we see the Twelve Apostles “in the presence of God;” the holiest of sacrifices in the temple; bread made of wheat sieved multiple times, i.e. separation of wheat and tars. Important is that the first time the tabernacle the Twelve loaves were in the presence of God, and when He held the bread Christ said at the last supper “this is my body,” the twelve holy loves were present – facing God, “face bread”. The nourishment of the Twelve Loaves isto be consumed every time they preached the Kingdom of God; they nourish the masses with the body and blood of Christ and the knowledge of the Kingdom. Still further, at the end of their time, new freshly baked loaves were replaced, with new “.

In conclusion, for me, this adds a new dimension to standing before the tabernacle of the Kingdom of God. Partaking of the “real presence” is participating in the Old and New Kingdom as well as a personal relationship with the crucified Christ. Christ is truly present in any sense you want to consider; being the sacrifice of both the Old Testament and the New. What is happening in Matthew 16 is THE MOST important sacrificial exposure of the bread (Apostles) to the Face of God. Only after Peter confessed was he exposed to the presence of God; who was Most Holy Sacrificial Lamb. Thus when Christ says, “That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” The intent is crystal clear to 12 Jewish Apostles. Christ was God, Peter was to be the head of the Church – that same church, the same Kingdom, is what we call the Roman Catholic Church. It's authority is of One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

I believe in the simplicity of Christ. That we should not deny one child, but receive all that believe in "CHRIST".. Why? because [it] is written in scripture.

Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

AND I would question because it is written, Can our minds be deceived from the simplicity of Christ? The simplicity of evidences offered in scripture.
1. His voice (Jhn 10:27)
2. I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.(Jhn 14:6)
3. For we walk by faith, not by sight ( 2 Cr 5:7)

The parable of the wheat and tars requires us to believe in the Kingdom of God. Its therein we shall find fertile ground in which to grow our faith. And the consequence of planting our faith in that fertile ground is more efficacious for spiritual growth. Taken in this context I can only agree with that immediately above.

I believe in Baptism, for it offers the newness of life. Dead in Christ, to raise as Christ did. For first we do have teaching, in the law which is the lamp of the light. But those who hear His voice and walk in Christ are the ensample of what God's children believe. Love in Christ opens the door that He stands waiting to give. One's heart and mind of free will is built through experiences, and God's teaching along the way that we can reap by that which is sown. The presence of God within us, and with us, by the Holy Spirit. A child of God does the Will of their Father, just as Christ has shown us.

2 Cr 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Scripture does not say be converted to Catholic, but it does say all souls belong to God, and all were given free will, and all must be converted to a child of God. Doing the Will of the Our Father who sent us. A servant to Our Father. ~ In Christ

The Sacred Scriptures are very clear, in the concept of the Kingdom of God. You cannot read scripture without it – it becomes textually meaningless, because we are taught to seek out the Kingdom of God; not simply do the will of God. We can't sit on our duff and say, I believe in God, I believe in Christ and DO nothing; our faith requires, demands, a response. That response requires that we partake of the bread of life (see John 6) and that can only be found in the Catholic Church. "Tradition of the Church proclaims. For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."

JoeT

[arcura]

sndbay,
In the early days of Christianity there was no need to covert to The Church with Peter as it's head for all the apostles who were building The Church which later became known as the universal or Catholic Church were all of Jesus Christ's Assembly which He called MY Church.
There were no denominations way back then, Only The Church and a few that were heresies.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay,
In the early days of Christianity there was no need to covert to The Church with Peter as it's head for all the apostles who were building The Church which later became known as the universal or Catholic Church were all of Jesus Christ's Assembly which He called MY Church.
There were no denominations way back then, Only The Church and a few that were heresies.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, I have only one way and that way is Christ.

(John 14:6) I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And when we speak of The Word which was made flesh, we eat of it. ~In Christ

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

[sndbay]

~In Christ

John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

[galveston]

Are some of you saying the Catholic church is NOT a denomination?

Get real.

[arcura]

Galveston,
I am historically REAL!!
The Church was not a denomination until after the reformation.
That's several hundred years after Jesus founded it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

That response requires that we partake of the bread of life (see John 6) and that can only be found in the Catholic Church. "Tradition of the Church proclaims. For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."

JoeT

The bread of life came from Heaven, so to say it can only be found in the Catholic Church is against what is written and fore told by Christ. The bread is Christ, The Word made flesh.

We can not trade Christ in, and say the Catholic Church alone is the fullfillment to obtain salvation. That would be giving up the love of Christ to follow the church. Christ said I am the way...

[JoeT777]

Are some of you saying the Catholic church is NOT a denomination??

Get real.

Yes. What I'm saying is that the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ, the Kingdom of God.

And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one. I in them, and thou in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. (John 17:20-23)

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
Right you are.
AND
I pray that someday all will be one with Christ's One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

The bread of life came from Heaven, so to say it can only be found in the Catholic Church is against what is written and fore told by Christ. The bread is Christ, The Word made flesh.

Yes, the bread is Christ, “I am the bread of life.” And as those who followed Moses ate manna, Christ offered himself, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.”

If there was any ambiguity of the real presence it is removed in the next few verses, “I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.” (John 6) Eat real flesh of Christ, drink the real blood of Christ.

We can not trade Christ in, and say the Catholic Church alone is the fullfillment to obtain salvation. That would be giving up the love of Christ to follow the church. Christ said I am the way...

The RC doctrine holds that other denomination are not deprived of the mystery of salvation, but fall short of the fullness of means of salvation. Though deficient, salvation is not denied as if it was obtained in fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church. (THANK A CATHOLIC POPE FOR YOUR SALVATION - for what he binds is bound in heaven; what is unbound is unbound in heaven.) Whereas, many in the Protestant world would charge the RC Church of paganism, demonism, and thus be damned; the Church holds that other Christian faiths can find salvation. Even still, “For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained." (Cf Unitatis Redinegratio November 1964)

JoeT