[De Maria]

"Hope is a theologically grounded notion, and I think that perhaps is especially true as Sen. Obama uses it. Hope would have to be distinguished from optimism, which is supposing things will turn out well. Hope is daring to envision something that is beyond either optimism or planning. It is an articulation of a vision, and, as the Bible says, without a vision, the people perish.... [Obama's hope] is grounded in a notion that what God intends is justice and mercy and compassion, even if that seems, under current circumstances, to be unrealistic." --Ted Jennings, professor of biblical and constructive theology, Chicago Theological Seminary

Don't get me started on Obama. I didn't figure you for a liberal until the discussion on the gay issue.

Have you and I concluded our discussion here? I couldn't find a response to my last message.

[Wondergirl]

I didn't figure you for a liberal.

I'm not.

Thanks for derailing my question.

[arcura]

Joe, I do agree with you That one term for the abortion ultra liberal is enough.
I fact it is one to many.
I HOPE your HOPE is fulfilled.
I also HOPE that I am heaven bound.
That HOPE is a firm belief in the words Jesus spoke as recorded in the Holy Bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[De Maria]

I'm not.

Thanks for derailing my question.

Hm?
1. You were talking about Obama with someone else.
2. Obama is a liberal, is he not?
3. I simply added my two cents as friendly chit chat. Believe me, if I said what I think about Obama, that would derail the thread.

4. This thread is about "the hope of heaven". Perhaps you've forgotten that you and I traded several messages in the first two pages on this topic. I asked if you and I had concluded our discussion because I might have overlooked a response from you.

In conclusion, I didn't derail your thread. You had already taken a rabbit trail of your own choosing and I attempted to bring the thread back to your OP.

[Tj3]

Don't change the subject. Lets go back to what you posted. What does,
In fact, I do not even judge myself. mean?

What does:
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes

mean?

There's no getting around those verses. We are not to judge ourselves saved. Jesus will do that.

You are going backwards. We already reviewed the context to that and taking a few words out of context is not a proper means of interpretation. If so, then you must also agree that God meant what he said here:

Prov 31:9
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
And plead the cause of the poor and needy.
NKJV

John 7:23-24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NKJV

1 Cor 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
NKJV

The verse that you reference has absolutely nothing to do with salvation when read in context. Even Akoue appears to agree with that. Why do you claim otherwise?

[Wondergirl]

You had already taken a rabbit trail of your own choosing and I attempted to bring the thread back to your OP.

I gave a quote about hope. You picked out one word and chewed on it.

[Wondergirl]

Hm?
1. You were talking about Obama with someone else.

I wasn't talking with anyone about Obama.

[Akoue]

For anyone who is interested, 1Cor.11.31-32 uses different words, all of which are sometimes translated "judge". Better translations will typically render v.31: "If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment" [ei de heautous DIEKRINOMEN, ouk an EKRINOMETHA]. Then, in v.32, we get "krino" again: "we are judged by the Lord" [KRINOMENOI de hupo [tou] kuriou]--which sounds vaguely reminiscent of 1Cor.4.5.

[Akoue]

Even Akoue appears to agree with that.

Akoue has argued over many pages that 1Cor.4.5 does prohibit judgement regarding salvation. He even argued that references to 1Cor.3 do not in any way change the fact the 1Cor.4.5 is prohibiting judgment regarding salvation. As De Maria rightly points out, we are not to render a verdict (or judgment) regarding salvation until the Lord comes; he will render the verdict because he alone knows our hearts and our motives. (See previous post: "we are judged by the Lord".)

[Tj3]

Akoue has argued over many pages that 1Cor.4.5 does prohibit judgement regarding salvation.

Ah, interesting. We did go over this earlier and when I addressed the issue of salvation, you appeared to agree that it has nothing to do with salvation. Perhaps you can show us precisely where this passage refers to salvation.

While you are at it, you may want to look at the numerous passages throughout scripture where judgments are made regarding the salvation of people, such as this one:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
NKJV

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

Note that this is past tense, thus God has already saved them, and since Paul says "us", he is including himself.
And this one which clearly shows that Paul judges himself saved in the hope:

Rom 8:24
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
NKJV

I could show you many others, so you have the problem of showing us where the passage in 1 Corinthians speaks of salvation, dealing with the local context (which has been clearly shown to not say what you claim), and the wider context of scripture where we find that indeed scripture permits judgments of salvation, including ourselves.

I look forward to your concise and direct response.

[De Maria]

You are going backwards. We already reviewed the context to that and taking a few words out of context is not a proper means of interpretation. If so, then you must also agree that God meant what he said here:

Prov 31:9
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
And plead the cause of the poor and needy.
NKJV

John 7:23-24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NKJV

1 Cor 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
NKJV

The verse that you reference has absolutely nothing to do with salvation when read in context. Even Akoue appears to agree with that. Why do you claim otherwise?

I notice you didn't answer my questions.

[arcura]

Yes indeed.
I agree that we should NOT judge ourselves OR others about salvation.
My reasons are the bible tells us not to judge that way and the fact that we do not KNOW what is in the hearts of others.
Jesus does and will know and the bible says the He WILL BE the judge of that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[De Maria]

I wasn't talking with anyone about Obama.

According to this quote it indicates that you said:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
"Hope is a theologically grounded notion, and I think that perhaps is especially true as Sen. Obama uses it. Hope would have to be distinguished from optimism, which is supposing things will turn out well. Hope is daring to envision something that is beyond either optimism or planning. It is an articulation of a vision, and, as the Bible says, without a vision, the people perish... [Obama's hope] is grounded in a notion that what God intends is justice and mercy and compassion, even if that seems, under current circumstances, to be unrealistic." --Ted Jennings, professor of biblical and constructive theology, Chicago Theological Seminary

Therefore unless someone else is using your "Wondergirl" profile, you were talking about how Obama uses the term "hope" theologically.

[Tj3]

I notice you didn't answer my questions.

But I did - many times in this thread. This is exactly what we have been discussing over the past few days.

[Tj3]

Yes indeed.
I agree that we should NOT judge ourselves OR others about salvation.
My reasons are the the bible tells us not to judge that way and the fact that we do not KNOW what is in the hearts of others.
Jesus does and will know and the bible says the He WILL BE the judge of that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Really Fred? Maybe you missed these references (for example)

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
NKJV

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

Note that this is past tense, thus God has already saved them, and since Paul says "us", he is including himself. And this one which clearly shows that Paul judges himself saved in the hope:

Rom 8:24
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
NKJV

I could show you many others, so you have the problem of showing us where the passage in 1 Corinthians speaks of salvation, dealing with the local context (which has been clearly shown to not say what you claim), and the wider context of scripture where we find that indeed scripture permits judgments of salvation, including ourselves.

I do agree that judging salvation of others is something best left to God, but there are cases where it is appropriate. In the case of ourselves, scripture is very clear.

I await any verse which says in context that we are not to judge our salvation.

[De Maria]

But I did - many times in this thread. This is exactly what we have been discussing over the past few days.

No, you didn't. But I'll let you try again.

Don't change the subject. Lets go back to what you posted. What does,
In fact, I do not even judge myself. mean?

What does:
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes

Mean?

There's no getting around those verses. We are not to judge ourselves saved. Jesus will do that.

[Tj3]

No, you didn't. But I'll let you try again.

Don't change the subject. Lets go back to what you posted. What does,
In fact, I do not even judge myself. mean?

What does:
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes

mean?

There's no getting around those verses. We are not to judge ourselves saved. Jesus will do that.

I did actually. We have discussed these points to death over the past several days. I invite you to read over the thread.

You are going backwards. We already reviewed the context to that and taking a few words out of context is not a proper means of interpretation. If so, then you must also agree that God meant what he said here:

Prov 31:9
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
And plead the cause of the poor and needy.
NKJV

John 7:23-24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NKJV

1 Cor 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
NKJV

The verse that you reference has absolutely nothing to do with salvation when read in context. Even Akoue appears to agree with that. Why do you claim otherwise?

[Wondergirl]

According to this quote it indicates that you said:


Therefore unless someone else is using your "Wondergirl" profile, you were talking about how Obama uses the term "hope" theologically.

Please read more carefully. Wondergirl said nothing.

The entire quote was from Ted Jennings. The part you put in bold, the "I think that perhaps is especially true as Sen. Obama uses it," are Professor Jennings' words, not mine. The quote was run in the 12/30/08 Chicago Sun-Times.

[arcura]

De Maria,
I expect that Tj3 will continue to dodge those questions.
But I hope I am wrong and he does provide good answers rather that dodge them
Fred

[Tj3]

De Maria,
I expect that Tj3 will continue to dodge those questions.
But I hope I am wrong and he does provide good answers rather that dodge them
Fred

Fred,

I see that you and De Maria are starting the same old approach that no doubt will once again end up in getting a thread shut down - false accusations, attacks against the person, and trying to repeat to death the same old questions after the points were discussed to death so that things go around in circles.

Talking about things not answered, I note that you ignored my comments back to you:

---------------------
Really Fred? Maybe you missed these references (for example)

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
NKJV

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

Note that this is past tense, thus God has already saved them, and since Paul says "us", he is including himself. And this one which clearly shows that Paul judges himself saved in the hope:

Rom 8:24
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
NKJV

I could show you many others, so you have the problem of showing us where the passage in 1 Corinthians speaks of salvation, dealing with the local context (which has been clearly shown to not say what you claim), and the wider context of scripture where we find that indeed scripture permits judgments of salvation, including ourselves.

I do agree that judging salvation of others is something best left to God, but there are cases where it is appropriate. In the case of ourselves, scripture is very clear.

I await any verse which says in context that we are not to judge our salvation.