[Tj3]

Sure it does.

Maybe in your mind.

My goodness. Do you have that much trouble understanding English? Obviously it was not used by Christians in the West. Therefore it was used by Christians in the East.

Ah yes, the tried and true ad hominems, best used when you have no means of rebuttal.

[Tj3]

When you only read anti-Catholic apologetics, some of the real history of the Christian faith slips through the cracks.... :(

I must be hitting right on target - more ad hominems.

Most of what I read about Roman Catholicism is written by Romans Catholics and has the endorsement of the Roman church.

Most of what I read regarding sound doctrine is in the Bible. If these sources are anti-Catholic, well, it would be good for you to consider the implications.

[De Maria]

Maybe in your mind.

Ah yes, the tried and true ad hominems, best used when you have no means of rebuttal.

Obviously you've lost interest in intelligent debate. Bye.

[Tj3]

Obviously you've lost interest in intelligent debate. Bye.

I have interest in an intelligent debate. Do you know where I can find one?

I never did have interest in ad hominem arguments.

[arcura]

De Maria and ScottRC,
I agree that you both are correct.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[De Maria]

I must be hitting right on target - more ad hominems.

Most of what I read about Roman Catholicism is written by Romans Catholics and has the endorsement of the Roman church.

You might want to post it some time so we can explain it to you.

Most of what I read regarding sound doctrine is in the Bible.

I doubt it. Although you deny being Protestant, your doctrines are based on Protestant premises which are unsound since they are really a rebellion against the Church of God.

If these sources are anti-Catholic, well, it would be good for you to consider the implications.

Your doctrines are not based on the Bible as you claim. But on Protestant Traditions which you claim not to follow. But your adherence to Sola Scriptura belies that claim.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ScottRC]

I must be hitting right on target - more ad hominems.

*yawn*

Come on... you've got to give up on this... it works the first time, but then you've got to actually start discussing the thread topics.

I'm still wondering if you can provide some examples of your "bible-only" Christians ---- pre-Constantine... I doubt you would post something so foolish without being able to support this with facts, right?

History should support your contention that "the changes occurred in 325AD when Constantine amalgamated the pagan Roman religion into the church"... you should be able to provide ample quotes from the early Church that show how Christians have a theology similar to yours... and then show examples of the corruption after Catholicism became pagan.

Looking forward to reading your examples, heck, even ONE example... instead of the usual dodge.

[sndbay]

The Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that if we don't hear the Church (Matt 18:17) we should be treated as heathen.

The Church is a House of God, and He is the Pillar and the Ground Truth.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


To determine righteousness, results of 3 if thy brother shall trespass against thee Matthew 18:15-16 One should always try to resolve this alone first. The of witness, followed last with the church.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Yet some people say we should neglect the Church and listen to Scripture alone?

The Importance of Scriptures

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Why, if doing so is to disobey Scripture?

I would suggest you use Our Father's Truth if the church is His House.

As a child of God we enter the House of God to give honor, praise , and glory to Our Father. Our Father is the Spirit of Truth to all that is written.

Deu 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Believe

[Tj3]

*yawn*
Come on... you've gotta give up on this.... it works the first time, but then you've gotta actually start discussing the thread topics.

Scott,

When you or Maria decide to start discussing, and not either posting ad hominems or other abuse, and stop trying to tell everyone else that your denomination is God's only denomination, and start actually addressing the points raised respectfully, then we can have a real discussion - something that I think would be quite interesting.

The other thing is that when you start asking me for things that I provided to your dozens of times, I find it hard to believe that you are serious, but rather it comes across that you are just trying to waste my time.

Tom

[Tj3]

You might want to post it some time so we can explain it to you.

I got a good laugh out of that!

I doubt it. Although you deny being Protestant, your doctrines are based on Protestant premises which are unsound since they are really a rebellion against the Church of God.

First, I see no indication that you have listened enough to know what I believe - you have misrepresented my beliefs time and again. And the arrogance in your last line speaks for itself.

Tom

[arcura]

SottRC,
I see the Tj3 can not produce that which he claims he can, instead he cries "abuse" for your noticing that.
Fred

[De Maria]

The Church is a House of God, and He is the Pillar and the Ground Truth.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


To determine righteousness, results of 3 if thy brother shall trespass against thee Matthew 18:15-16 One should always try to resolve this alone first. The of witness, followed last with the church.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.




The Importance of Scriptures

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.



I would suggest you use Our Father's Truth if the church is His House.

As a child of God we enter the House of God to give honor, praise , and glory to Our Father. Our Father is the Spirit of Truth to all that is written.

Deu 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Believe

Sndbay,

Your post seems to support my argument against Scripture alone.

If it doesn't, please show where and how any of those references in your message support Scripture alone.

[arcura]

De Maria,
I would also like to see that.
Fred

[Tj3]

SottRC,
I see the Tj3 can not produce that which he claims he can, instead he cries "abuse" for your noticing that.
Fred

Fred, I have produced everything that I claimed, and I did so without the need to abuse or use ad hominems, You cannot say the same, or you would still be on AW.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Where is that abuse you claim?
I merely stated my fear for your soul.
It is why through my love of Jesus and for his followers like you that I have been praying for years and will continue to do so.
I want to see you in heaven.
It the name of Jesus I love you and want to see to saved.
No abuse done or intended.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Where is that abuse you claim?
I merely stated my fear for your soul.
It is why through my love of Jesus and for his followers like you that I have been praying for years and will continue to do so.
I want to see you in heaven.
It the name of Jesus I love you and want to see to saved.
No abuse done or intended.
Fred

Fred,

Your abuse is obvious to anyone who cares. It was obvious to the owners of AW.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Since when is the love of Jesus and for those who follow him abuse?
Fred

[JoeT777]

We've been through this. Many different Bibles include non-canonical reference material. And the New Catholic Encyclopedia (among other sources) agree with me. Deny if you wishg - it will not change reality.

Et al:

Regarding Sacred Scripture

I think De Maria may have covered this several times in this and other threads, repeating it surly couldn't hurt.

The Council of Laodicea (circa 365) is first synod or council to have reportedly discussed the books in the Scripture. The following is the Old Testament books discussed: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.

The following were the New Testament books discussed: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon. CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

While these books may or may not have been canonized at the Council of Laodicea, the Council provides historical proof that many of the books considered sacred by St. Jerome were considered sacred by that date. Furthermore, it is apparent that they had been used for some time.

Later, the Scriptures were canonized by Pope Innocent in 405; intact as we know it today and were re-canonized by Trent, Session 4, 1546. The fourth session of the Council of Trent listed the books as those contained in the Latin Vulgate. And just to remove any ambiguity it was flatly stated, “But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.” The Vulgate is one and the same translation by St. Jerome for Pope Damasus in 374, proclaimed by St. Augustine (circa 397) and approved by Pope Innocent.

Prior to that St Jerome, we see that the early Church Fathers used an Old Testament containing the deuterocanonical books, which were considered sacred:

Didache: Wisdom
St. Clement: Judith, Wisdom, Esther
St. Polycarp: Tobit,
St. Irenaeus: Baruch, Wisdom
Clement of Alex: Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel
St. Hippolytus: Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel
Tertullian: Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel
Origen: Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel, Esther
St. Cyprian: Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1Mach, 2Mach, Daniel


As I'm sure you're aware, the argument that the Roman Catholic Church “changed” the Scriptural Cannon in 1546 simply isn't true.


I had actually written this for another thread, but it seems it is now closed. I hadn't participated in that thread, so it couldn't have been caused by me – I can get argumentative. This is the third or fourth thread closed for the same reason in the last few weeks. I suspension that this is a tactic used to close any discussion regarding topics in which Catholics participate. Am I imagining things?


JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT777
Thanks for posting that here as has been posted on the Christian board before.
It is good for the truth to be reposted for those who had not the opportunity to see it previously.
It is also of value for those who want to remember it well.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[sndbay]

Sndbay,

Your post seems to support my argument against Scripture alone.

If it doesn't, please show where and how any of those references in your message support Scripture alone.

Christ is the Foundation and upon it was the fellowship built by the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the corner stone. This is what the House of God feeds the children of God. The fellowship in Christ, the Foundation.

1 Corinthains 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ

Eph 2:19- 20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, [but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

DeMaria, Who Did Christ follow?