[RickJ]

You did not address the point that I raised that puts a hole in that theory - why did Trent not agree with the apocrypha included in the Vulgate, if indeed the Vulgate's inclusion of these books was proof of their inclusion in the canon?

I cannot address "why"... but can only say what is observable: The Council of Trent affirmed the Canon that was in use for a long time.

[Tj3]

I cannot address "why"...but can only say what is observable: The Council of Trent affirmed the Canon that was in use for a long time.

But what they presented was not in agreement with what ScottRc said was the "canon" of the past. That is the point. The argument does not hopld water if the claim of the canonical definition of the past does not align with what the Council of Trent defined as the canon.

[RickJ]

? I don't understand what you are saying. What do you believe that the "canon" was earlier?

Clearly we are at one with what we today call the New Testament, but as for the Old, history shows us clearly that Christians, in general and in the majority, accepted what Catholic Christians today accept.

What are you looking at that shows you otherwise?

[JoeT777]

But what they presented was not in agreement with what ScottRc said was the "canon" of the past. That is the point. The argument does not hopld water if the claim of the canonical definition of the past does not align with what the Council of Trent defined as the canon.

Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent
The Fourth Session
Celebrated on the eighth day of the month of April, in the year 1546.

And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below:

Of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second.

Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle.
But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church.

TJ3: you might want to count them. I haven't done so, but I'm sure you'll find 73 here. In any event the Latin Vulgate edition is the governing document.

JoeT

[Tj3]

? I don't understand what you are saying. What do you believe that the "canon" was earlier?

It is not what I believe that it was earlier, but what the claims on here are by Roman Catholics that it was.

Clearly we are at one with what we today call the New Testament, but as for the Old, history shows us clearly that Christians, in general and in the majority, accepted what Catholic Christians today accept.

That is not agreed and not as clear as what you seem to think that it is.

[Tj3]

[I]
TJ3: you might want to count them. I haven't done so, but I'm sure you'll find 73 here. In any event the Latin Vulgate edition is the governing document.

JoeT

Then why does this list not agree with the Vulgate - that is the question.

[ScottRC]

You might want to count them. I haven't done so, but I'm sure you'll find 73 here. In any event the Latin Vulgate edition is the governing document.
JoeT

Hehe... I don't think it's a simple matter of counting them... but I would bet that your average non-Catholic does not know that the Vulgate titled the books of Ezra and Nehemiah as 1 and 2 Esdras... and you'll get some poor uneducated sap wondering where they went!

Sad that so many Christians don't know the history of their own faith... I wish it could be taught in schools... oh well.

Peace be with you Joe.

[Tj3]

Hehe... I don't think it's a simple matter of counting them... but I would bet that your average non-Catholic does not know that the Vulgate titled the books of Ezra and Nehemiah as 1 and 2 Esdras ...... and you'll get some poor uneducated sap wondering where they went!

Sad that so many Christians don't know the history of their own faith... I wish it could be taught in schools.... oh well.

Peace be with you Joe.

See it does not count to use abuse as an alternative to an answer - you missed!

[JoeT777]

Peace be with you Joe.

Scott: If this is meant for this joe, thanks I need it. And if it's not, if you don't mind, I'll take it anyway. And also with you.

Tj3: I offer you the same peace. John 16:12 teaches us that there are many things too painful to know, so God's Sprit teaches us in his own time. I pray you'll discover what God wants of you.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Tj3: I offer you the same peace. John 16:12 teaches us that there are many things too painful to know, so God’s Sprit teaches us in his own time. I pray you’ll discover what God wants of you.

JoeT

Joe,

Thanks. God has indeed been guiding me thorughout my life!

Tom