[N0help4u]

I can almost see what you are saying. It is more clear than the way De Marie tries to explain things. I asked De Marie at least three times if purgatory is before or after the judgment of the believers she never did reply.
SOME of the verses you quoted I always understood as being before you die and not sure I see them as meaning after you die. The ones that seem to say after you die I will have to check them more. Also I do believe there was a waiting place (possibly called Purgatory) before Jesus' death but I can see no reason for it since Jesus death since the Bible says that he was the final sacrifice and propitiation for our sins. It seems to me that if you need more than his reconciling us by his death then his death was less meaningful.

Why does the Bible say that as soon as you ask God to forgive your sins he casts them as far as the East is from the West and forgets them and other verses like that?

Why do all those verses say that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient?

[Tj3]

Why do all those verses say that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient?

That's only because God chose to take all sins from those who are not Catholic. :D

[arcura]

NoHelp4U
Purgatory is for those who have passed this life but not fully in the grace of God.
Their sinful nature needs to be purged; refined away so that their soul is pure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[arcura]

Tj3,
You might think an inaccuracy such as that is funny, but the what might happen to a person soul is not funny.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

NoHelp4U
Purgatory is for those who have passed this life but not fully in the grace of God.
Their sinful nature needs to be purged; refined away so that their soul is pure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

In scripture, everyone either has all their unrighteousness taken away,

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

Or they are on their way to hell:

John 3:18-21
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
NKJV

There is no middle ground.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
You might think an inaccuracy such as that is funny, but the what might happen to a person soul is not funny.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Thus my concerns that people hear the gospel, and not think that there is hope after death whereby they can pay for their own sins.

[revdrgade]

Scripture is still the source and norm of all doctrine.

You are basing your belief that the church has equal authority as God's Word by writing:
"The Scriptures say that the Church...." thereby recognizing the authority of scripture.

The phrase, "house of God" refers to a building, the temple as it is used in the OT and by Jesus.

"The church" in the NT, however, is not defined as a corporate group, but usually as local gatherings of Christians. Since they are one in faith, they are also generalized as the body of Christ.
It is not only the RCC that errs in acting like the corporate group (rulers, bishops, pastors, etc) are equal to the Word of God, but also many Christians denominations slip into this arrogant mode.

The "church" is the gathering and it INCLUDES prophets and teachers, but they are called the "church"

Acts 13:1
13:1 In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers:
NIV

Acts 15:30-31

30 The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.
NIV

Rom 16:5-6
5 Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.
NIV

The church is always the body of Christ with only one head. And He is "the Word become flesh"... but still "the Word"

Col 1:17-18
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church ; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
NIV

Here Jesus says that the "truth" which is spoken of in I Tim. 3:15 is the word of God, which is what we mean when we speak of Scripture.
John 17:15-17

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
NIV

The churches can proclaim God's Word, they can rightly interpret it and apply it... but they cannot add or subtract from it without doing harm to the people of God.

[ScottRC]

I can almost see what you are saying. It is more clear than the way De Marie tries to explain things.

I appreciate you saying that... I don't expect you to agree that I'm correct in my interpretation, but I would hope that you come to understand that we believe it is truly a BIBLICAL doctrine.

I asked De Marie at least three times if purgatory is before or after the judgment of the believers she never did reply.

After.

Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation. (CCC 1022)

It seems to me that if you need more than his reconciling us by his death then his death was less meaningful.

I can understand that... but be sure that we don't doubt the sufficiency of Christ's death on the Cross for us... it is just that we don't believe this has made us "magically" perfect... we are still sinners and still continue to sin... we still have all our human bad habits etc etc... and I don't believe that we can stand before God unless we are PURE. Nothing can come before God --- no one will see His face that is not perfected in love... and since many of us die without this perfection:

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.(1030)

So again... the sacrifce on Calvary WAS sufficient to open the doors to heaven, but we still have to do our part... we have to respond to the grace God gives us to become partakers in the divine nature.

[Tj3]

I can understand that... but be sure that we don't doubt the sufficiency of Christ's death on the Cross for us... it is just that we don't believe this has made us "magically" perfect... we are still sinners and still continue to sin.... we still have all our human bad habits etc etc.... and I don't believe that we can stand before God unless we are PURE.

No we are not perfected now, but no matter what sins those who are saved commit or have committed, they are cleansed by the blood on the cross (1 John 1:9 and others), therefore there is nothing that we can do to improve upon what God Himself already did.

Further, to pay the price for sin required a perfect sinless man - and since none of us meet the qualifications, we cannot pay the price for any sin.

[N0help4u]

Yeah I agree we go through the fire for works and perfected but not sin and
that fire is the judgment day of the believers not the purgatory.
I still do not understand why God would make sure that the first and second resurrection, the judgments of the wicked, the nations, the believers, etc... and the crowns would all be explained yet no out right mention of purgatory. Why?

[arcura]

Tj3.
Your are selecting scripture to say what you want it to say and ignoring other passages.
Purgatory is real as scripture indicates as has been provided here.
Please be careful.
The day will come that you will know that personally.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Tj3.
Your are selecting scripture to say what you want it to say and ignoring other passages.
Purgatory is real as scripture indicates as has been provided here.
Please be careful.
The day will come that you will know that personally.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

If it is in scripture, Fred, then all you would need to do is to show us the scripture rather than simply telling everyone who has read scripture that they are wrong.

[ScottRC]

I still do not understand why God would make sure that the first and second resurrection, the judgments of the wicked, the nations, the believers, etc......and the crowns would all be explained yet no out right mention of purgatory. Why?

I don't believe there needed to be a "out right mention" of it... since I don't believe all God left us was a book... I believe that even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries... like the teachings of the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the Theotokos, and purgatory.

But I would like to point out that while I do believe this teaching is true, I don't believe it affects our salvation... what I mean is, that belief or lack of belief of purgatory does not affect your relationship with Christ so it's just fine if we agree to disagree.:D

[N0help4u]

Then why did he or would he find it significant to include the judgments and other things but feel that purgatory was insignificant to explain?

Belief or lack of belief of purgatory does not affect your relationship with Christ
I can agree with that -basically

[sndbay]

I don't believe there needed to be a "out right mention" of it.... since I don't believe all God left us was a book.....I believe that even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.... like the teachings of the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the Theotokos, and purgatory.

But I would like to point out that while I do believe this teaching is true, I don't believe it affects our salvation... what I mean is, that belief or lack of belief of purgatory does not affect your relationship with Christ so it's just fine if we agree to disagree.:D

Then you do not believe a teaching that would make us believe Christ was unworthy of washing us clean of all sin, might also not provoke God to anger? My belief is in scripture that does indeed say different. The Word of Truth offer to you.

Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
This is Truth..

Hebrews 10: 20-22 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God;Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

This is Truth!

Hebrews 10: 26-27 For [U]if we sin wilfully [/U]after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

This is truth!!

Hebrews 10:29-30 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

[ScottRC]

Then why did he or would he find it significant to include the judgments and other things but feel that purgatory was insignificant to explain?

You assume that purgatory is not clearly in scripture... I obviously disagree... but (yet again) we always come back to how to settle this using scripture alone, and I think this shows it is not possible.

Catholics have both scripture AND the teachings of the early church (which as you see are based upon the Bible):


Comments by Jacques Le Goff, author of The Birth of Purgatory [University of Chicago Press, 1984] Excerpts from chapter 2 "The Fathers of Purgatory"

From the Old Testament, Clement [of Alexandria] and Origen took the notion that fire is a divine instrument, and from the New Testament the idea of baptism by fire (from the Gospels) and the idea of a purificatory trial after death (from Paul). The notion of fire as a divine instrument comes from commonly cited interpretations of Old Testament passages [ e.g. Lev 10:1-2; Deut 32:22; Jer 15:14; cf. Luke 3:16].... (page 53)

Origen's conceptions were more detailed and far reaching than Clement's. As we have seen, Origen thought that all men, even the righteous, must be tried by fire, since no one is absolutely pure. Every soul is tainted by the mere fact of its union with the flesh....Origen and Clement agree that there are two kinds of sinners, or, rather, that there are the righteous, whose only taint is that inherent in human nature (rupos, later translated into Latin as sordes), and the sinners properly so called, who bear the extra burden of sins that in theory are mortal (pros thanaton amartia, or peccata in Latin).... (page 54,55)

For Clement of Alexandria, the 'intelligent' fire that enters into the sinner's soul was not a material thing...but neither was it a mere metaphor: it was a 'spiritual' fire (Stromata 7:6 and 5:14)....what is involved [in Origen's view] is a purificatory fire, which, though immaterial, is not merely a metaphor: it is real but spiritual, subtle....Origen's eschatological notions were highly personal...He believed that the souls of the righteous would pass through the fire of judgment in an instant and would reach Paradise on the eighth day after Judgment Day.... (page 55,56)

Thus, if Origen glimpsed the future Purgatory, still his idea of Purgatory was so overshadowed by his eschatology and his idea of Hell as a temporary abode that ultimately it vanishes from view. Nevertheless, it was Origen who clearly stated for the first time the idea that the soul can be purified in the other world after death. For the first time a distinction was drawn between mortal and lesser sins. We even see three categories beginning to take shape: the righteous, who pass through the fire of judgment and go directly to heaven; those guilty of the lesser sins only, who sojourn in the 'fire of combustion' is brief; and 'mortal sinners,' who remain in the flames for an extended period. Origen actually develops the metaphor introduced by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.... (page 56,57)

In this period [of the fourth century] Christian thought concerning the fate of the soul after death was based mainly on the vision of Daniel (Dan 7:9) and on a passage from Paul (1 Cor 3:10-15), and less frequently on Tertullian's idea of refrigerium and Origen's concept of a purifying fire....Lactantius (d. after 317) believed that all who died, including the righteous, would be tried by fire, but not until the Last Judgment [cites Instit 7:21 Migne PL 6:800]...Hilary of Poitiers (d. 367), Ambrose (d. 397), Jerome (d. 419/420), and the unidentified writer known as Ambrosiaster, who lived in the second half of the fourth century, all had ideas on the fate of the soul after death that make them heirs of Origen. (page 58,59)

And I can provide you with quote upon quote from the Church Fathers on prayers for the dead, purgatory, and the development of the doctrine... all BEFORE Constantine and Nicea.

To me, it is as "Christian" a belief as the Canon of Scripture or the Trinity... these "extra-Biblical" teachings happen to play a large role in our faith.

belief or lack of belief of purgatory does not affect your relationship with Christ
I can agree with that -basically

Cool.:D

[N0help4u]

passage from Paul (1 Cor 3:10-15) is about the judgment of believers where works are purged not sin and then you are given crown(s) according to your works.

[arcura]

Tj3,
How many times must I post the Scripture that indicates the reality of Purgatory?
Don't you read my posts?
I have posted those passages here just in the past few days and also on several other boards you were on over the years.
Why do you ignore that fact of truth?
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Tj3,
How many times must I post the Scripture that indicates the reality of Purgatory?
Don't you read my posts?
I have posted those passages here just in the past few days and also on several other boards you were on over the years.
Why do you ignore that fact of truth?
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I have read your posts, and you can keep copying and pasting the same old same old hundreds of times and it won't be any more true. You know that I have refuted themelsewhere a number of times previously. Must I show you where these are taken out of context again?

Have you taken the time to check them out yourself yet, or are you just copying and pasting them off the website once again?

[FreeDream]

De Maria, I have to wonder if perhaps you did not open this can of worms with the intent to open the debate. Looking back on the responses... yes, I've read them. Numerous times.

Understanding where the majorities travel, I see both sides of the lines. I see, too, that this thread ain't going to end with all parties thinking along the same lines. Now; I don't follow either the church, or the scripture, but I respect both. I've friends from all walks of spiritual life, and none of them do I scorn for their beliefs. So, here is where I stood almost twelve years ago. I'd have been almost fifteen, back then.

For much of my youth, I had been searching for reasons to believe in the bible. To believe in the priests and the preachers; their teachings and doctrines. I would say I was lucky enough NOT to have a superimposing family whose life values were based solely on faith and religion. At the same time, that may have proved to have been a flaw in life. I don't know.

Simultaneously, I found less and less that if I was to find faith with the scriptures, to take them fully and completely literally would have been folly in and of its own right. I read from the bible; asked my questions and was not satisfied with the answers, based on the different perspectives I was getting from different preachers from the same churches I attended.

Between the ages of fifteen and twenty, I walked with Protestant, Methodist, Catholic, Jehovas, etc. Different preachers for the same organizations had given me differing views that invariably led fellow members of the church into arguments, disputes and verbal eruptons that I would not by choice return within several weeks. At that time, I was a sponge for the knowledge they might grant to me.

If I was to find the faith in myself, however, I found I could not rely on them. I chose not to rely on them. I returned to my father's belief, in the end. That to find the kingdom of god lay not within the church, but LOOSELY within the scriptures, and with the self.

Now, in my youth, as well, I was known for being a bit of a rebel. For being the one that cracked the foundations, so that others might explain themselves a little more. One of the classes I ended up taking for a filler to my schedules was a bible study class. This was back in Eastern Kentucky. Definite Bible-Belt materia, this region. Yet, the teacher had asked that each of us pose a question at the beginning day, and ask if we had found our answers to that question at the ending day of the class.

My question: For a Scripture of God to have been re-written so many times, removed from and added to by the elders of our civilizations, why do we follow its doctrines as though they are truth?

My answer: For seven of ten people, the scriptures are what we are raised to believe to be true. Despite our historical teachings that the bible and its doctrines have been a ploy to keep us as a mob of people in line with what our elders and teachers want for us; not for what we ourselves yearn to feel for in a faith.

Scriptures alone, or church with them?

Because of my youth, I cannot in good faith follow either--I take my own path to find god in the end.

I hope this gives another perspective upon which to guide your responses in the future, De Maria.

Peace be with you.

Free Dream