[Tj3]

The term THE flesh is also commonly used in Scripture.

Yes it is, but when one reads scripture or anything else, one must examine the context in which the word appears, not just make assumptions based upon something that one saw somewhere else.

[De Maria]

Yes it is, but when one reads scripture or anything else, one must examine the context in which the word appears, not just make assumptions based upon something that one saw somewhere else.

The context is clear in John 6.

Jesus speaks of His flesh availing to eternal life.

And then Jesus speaks of THE flesh availing nothing.

It couldn't be clearer.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

The context is clear in John 6.

Jesus speaks of His flesh availing to eternal life.

And then Jesus speaks of THE flesh availing nothing.

I believe that it is extremely clear, and cannot imagine how anyone who was not imposing their own theological system or that of their denomination could mistake what it is saying.

We've been through this route once already - want to do it again?

The same verse that says "The Flesh", also refers to "The Spirit".

The same word in Greek is used for "The".

Are you saying that this does not refer to the Holy Spirit, but rather that any spirit can give life? Be consistent.

[Peter Wilson]

De Maria, Hi I'm back. What I meant bt a religious tradition, is that perhaps, you may have an understanding of the meaning, even though it may differ from mine, but the average Catholic has no idea, they learn a few stories but hardly, if ever read it for themselves.
I was brought up a Catholic, all my family are Catholics, but not one of them read the Bible. I even ask people that I meet, who are Catholic, about 1 in 10 actually own a Bible, but I haven't found one that actually reads it.
They believe in the traditions of men, perpetrated by the Universal Church, (Catholic Church, as you know), ask any one of them to explain the meaning of "saved by faith and not works", if you got one sensible answer out of 100, then you would be doing good.
The normal answer would be along the lines "I'm a Catholic!"
Every Catholic that I know, including me, when I was one, thinks nothing of going to a fortune teller, reading and believing Astrology, their star signs etc, believing in chance and luck, swear and curse, using Jesus name as a curse, getting outragously drunk, (I've even seen priests do this whilst carousing with women at a bar, they were regulars,) having sex out of marriage, using drugs, cheating, stealing,etc and still they consider themselves "good Catholics" and going to heaven, "just because they are Catholics". They may go to confession now and then, and go to Church, just to fulfill their religious duty.
Ask them anything about God or Jesus, and they either no nothing, or only the Christmas and easter story, or they say angrily, "I don't want to talk about that rubbish!"
They don't change, unless their lifestyle forces them to, through illness or prison.
A lot of good it does them, as far as I am concerned, you are welcome to your traditions, but I would much prefer the Power of God.
Just how many souls are you really saving, I think it would be better if they heeded the Lord's command,"

Rev. 18
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
So that you will not share in her sins,
So that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
And God has remembered her crimes.

I'm sure that you know that many people believe the Mystery Babylon in Revelation is the Catholic Church, I hope it isn't, but I suspect that it is.
Mark 7
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
But their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
Their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

Keep smilin' :)

[N0help4u]

Exactly the social club + entitlement because you are this religion or that is what first made me wake up. I even remember back in the early 70's my church youth group met at one of the members house and had a drinking party and they dared the one guy to drink a bottle as fast as he could and he died. The pastor came and they covered up any blame on anybody's part. The whole incident made me realize how can you go to church for 2 hours a week and then live like the devil for the rest time. The guys in the church would stare at their watches in the fall and point at the watches for the pastor to know he was on his final countdown so they could get out early enough to get home to watch the football game.
I have said for years that even drug dealers say they are Christian because their grandma raised them TELLING them they are Christian so on grandma's word alone they believe it so.
The Bible Matt 7 even says that the do gooders of the Church will say Lord, Lord did we not [do all these good works] in your name and he will say depart from me

[De Maria]

I believe that it is extremely clear, and cannot imagine how anyone who was not imposing their own theological system or that of their denomination could mistake what it is saying.

We've been through this route once already - want to do it again?

The same verse that says "The Flesh", also refers to "The Spirit".

The same word in Greek is used for "The".

Are you saying that this does not refer to the Holy Spirit, but rather that any spirit can give life? Be consistent.

I am being consistent. It is you who is being inconsistent.

Jesus consistently refers to HIS Flesh.

Then He refers to THE Flesh.

Obvious difference there.

So, it is you imposing your presuppositions into Scripture just as you imposed your presuppositions into Cardinal Newman's statement as has already been demonstrated.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

De Maria, Hi I'm back. What I meant bt a religious tradition, is that perhaps, you may have an understanding of the meaning, even though it may differ from mine, but the average Catholic has no idea, they learn a few stories but hardly, if ever read it for themselves.

Well, I find the same problem with the average Protestant. They know a few lines of Scripture which have generally been taught to them in a twisted manner. So although they recognized Scripture verses, they don't know Scripture at all because they don't know the true meaning of the words.

But Catholics listen to Scripture read every time they go to Mass and the interpretation of the Scripture is correct. Therefore, though they can't name a chapter and verse, they know the truth rather than a lie.

I was brought up a Catholic, all my family are Catholics, but not one of them read the Bible. I even ask people that I meet, who are Catholic, about 1 in 10 actually own a Bible, but I haven't found one that actually reads it.

Do they go to Mass?

Next time you go to Mass with your family, listen to the readings and the homily.

They believe in the traditions of men, perpetrated by the Universal Church, (Catholic Church, as you know), ask any one of them to explain the meaning of "saved by faith and not works", if you got one sensible answer out of 100, then you would be doing good.

That is a perfect example Pete. Lets see what Scripture says:

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

OH MY!! The Catholic doctrine. And most Catholics know that they have to do good deeds in order to get into heaven Pete. Be honest. Isn't that true? Because Protestants accuse us of a "works" theology.

Oh, but wait, you've probably been taught that St. Paul said, saved by faith ALONE.
Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

Romans 3:28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.

Why that just says saved THROUGH faith. And nowhere is the word "alone" to be found unless you have a copy of Martin Luther's Bible wherein he added that word to Scripture.

But that's hard to understand. It almost seems as though St. Paul is contradicting St. James. And Scripture is clear, St. Paul does say things in a manner hard to understand.

2 Peter 3 15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

So what does St. Paul understand by faith? Lets look at Hebrews 11:
4 By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice

7 By faith Noe, ..., framed the ark for the saving of his house,

8 By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

In other words, St. Paul knows that by faith we obey, by faith we work and if we don't work that means we don't have faith.

The normal answer would be along the lines "I'm a Catholic!"

EXACTLY!! In other words, I'm a member of the TRUE Church of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Every Catholic that I know, including me, when I was one, thinks nothing of going to a fortune teller, reading and believing Astrology, their star signs etc, believing in chance and luck, swear and curse, using Jesus name as a curse, getting outragously drunk, (I've even seen priests do this whilst carousing with women at a bar, they were regulars,) having sex out of marriage, using drugs, cheating, stealing,etc and still they consider themselves "good Catholics" and going to heaven, "just because they are Catholics".

Up to this point, I thought you were sincere. But I'll be upfront. You are lying.

But I'll ask you one thing just to see what you say. Was your mother Catholic? And does she fall in this category as well?

They may go to confession now and then, and go to Church, just to fulfill their religious duty.

Nothing wrong with fulfilling religious duty.

Ask them anything about God or Jesus, and they either no nothing, or only the Christmas and easter story, or they say angrily, "I don't want to talk about that rubbish!"

You paint with a broad brush. I also know many non Catholics who don't like to talk about religion.

They don't change, unless their lifestyle forces them to, through illness or prison.

Unless you have some sort of reliable data to support this strange idea of yours, I must pass it off as simply anti-Catholic invention.

A lot of good it does them, as far as I am concerned, you are welcome to your traditions, but I would much prefer the Power of God.

If you understood Scripture, you'd know that our Traditions are the Word of God.
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Just how many souls are you really saving, I think it would be better if they heeded the Lord's command,"

Rev. 18
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

I'm sure that you know that many people believe the Mystery Babylon in Revelation is the Catholic Church, I hope it isn't, but I suspect that it is.

Again because you don't understand Scripture and are simply listening to anti-Catholic babble. Let me show you:

Babylon is described as "that great city":

Rev 17: 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Rev 18: 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour is thy judgment come.

The "great city" is the city in which Jesus was crucified:

Rev 11: 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. . The Kings of the earth gathered in Jerusalem to crucify Christ.

Rev 17: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication

Acts 4: 26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Babylon and Jerusalem are built on seven mountains:

Revelation 17: 9And here is the understanding that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth, and they are seven kings:

Jerusalem is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

Babylon is destroyed by fire:

Rev 18: 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire

Jerusalem is destroyed by fire:

Ez 23: 25And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.


God calls His people out of that city:

Rev 18: 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Paul calls people out of Jerusalem:

Heb 13: 12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Mark 7
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

Keep smilin' :)

I'm smiling because you are showing how Satan has fooled you. Let me ask you, did Jesus condemn all traditions in this verse?

Because as I read it, he only condemned traditions OF MEN. Now, the Catholic Church keeps traditions. While you keep Scripture alone. That contradicts Scriptures clear teaching:

2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

But let me show you a well known secret. It is well known that the Churches which came from the Reform traditions have no leader. Or, to be more precise, they each have a leader. That is what the many headed dragon represents.

Apocalypse 12 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:

Thus this dragon represents the Protestant Churches which have no true leader but many small leaders which are led by the Anti-Christ. That is why these Churches added divorce and remarriage to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even though Jesus said:

Mark 10 11 And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

And these Churches permit contraception and masturbation even though the Word of God clearly teaches:
Genesis 1 28 And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.

Some of these Churches even permit homosexual clergy. Homosexuality, an abominable sin in the eyes of God:
Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense [sic] of their error which was meet."

And many other sins have these Churches legitimized in the name of Jesus Christ. But Christ is clear:

Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Still smiling?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

I am being consistent. It is you who is being inconsistent.

You are applying two different definitions to the same word used in the same context, the same sentence.

Hardly consistent. You are using neither consistent grammar nor sound interpretation.

You can keep insisting that we must all ignore grammar and the context and fall in line with your denomination because you say that we must, but if you expect us to all turn off our brains and do so, you are sadly mistaken.

[De Maria]

You are applying two different definitions to the same word used in the same context, the same sentence.

Hardly consistent. You are using neither consistent grammar nor sound interpretation.

You can keep insisting that we must all ignore grammar and the context and fall in line with your denomination because you say that we must, but if you expect us to all turn off our brains and do so, you are sadly mistaken.

I'll let reasonable people decide between your interpretations and the Church's.

Your explanation leads to the conclusion that Christ's flesh avails nothing.

The Church's explanation leads to the conclusion that Christ's flesh imparts the Holy Spirit and therefore avails much. This is consistent with the Incarnation. Christ's becoming flesh is definitely profitable for us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Peter Wilson]

De Maria, hey there, a little hot under the collar are we, sorry, I was probably not very gracious towards the Catholic church, just that it is full of hypocrites, that's all, how-ever not all, I have heard that there are some true believers in there, perhaps your one?
What I mean to say about the attitude of many of the Catholic persuasion, is that they are superstitious, and that, to the extreme.
Yes my parents and my sisters go to mass, though my father can't at the moment as he is in a nursing home.
He has been going to the same Catholic Church in Port Macquarie for 35 years. I asked him who his friends were there once, he told me he doesn't know anybody to talk to.
Now he is in a nursing home, and the only visitors he gets is from family. Where is his spiritual leader, who knows, obviously, he doesn't care about his sheep, even his faithful ones.
Faith without works is dead, I certainly agree, in Hebrews 11, it also says that without faith, it is impossible to please God.
If I say that I believe and then go off and act like the rest of the world, with no mind to follow the way of Christ, then certainly, that faith is dead.
What are you believing God for now, or are you just walking in those things that bring you comfort, like your traditions.
When was the last time you told your people that we healed by the stripes of Jesus (Isaiah 53 : 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
When did you lay hands on some-one and stand for their healing, when was the last time you gave a prophetic word to some-one, do miracles happen in your church, how about dreams and visions, when did you see some-one set free from drug addiction or demonic control after just receiving and believing the words of Jesus, how about the deaf hearing, or the blind seeing, or the crippled walking? Do you have faith to believe for these things, would you preach this in your church, would you tell some-one dying from Aids that God can heal them, what about a child dying from leukemia, would you tell the parents that Jesus can heal that child?
Well, I have been a part of this type of Church, and not only in one Church, many Churches believe for these same things and have put their faith into action and have had the victory.
I have experienced many of these myself, I have been healed, delivered, set free from a number of addictions and illnesses.
If I hadn't come to the Lord when I was 35, I would surely be dead now or in prison. God spoke to me, audibly, and told me to get baptised by full immersion.
I was just leaving a fellow's place, whom I had gone to kill, it was my second attempt. The first time, about 12 months before, an angel stopped me, (at least I believe it was an angel), as as I was holding this fellow by the throat and punching him to death, this angel stepped between us and said "That's enough, go home", he was about 6'8" and powerfully built. There was no-one in the street before hand.
So what do you believe God for, to go to Purgatory for a couple of million years or so.
I tried to get back to God through the Catholic church for many years,.
Whenever I went to a town to work or live, I would go to the Presbytery and make an appointment to talk to the priest.
All but one, had no idea about the questions I had, and all I was asking them was to tell me how to live my life according to Gods word.
The last one, told me that I had to be humbled, so as I went to see him weekly, he told me to lean forward and offer him my head so that he could pull out some hair.
He said that this would make me subject to him, whatever he meant by that, I'm not sure.
He said that he did to the altar boys all the time.
I thought, "he's supposed to be my spiritual leader, he must know what he is doing), so I offered my head, whenever he told me to, and I must say, it hurt when he pulled out my hair. I was 34 at the time.
One night, he said that to humble me, he was going to take me from the presbytery, down the main street, along the breakwall of the "Beautiful Hastings River" ( bit of tourism advert there!) back along the breakwall, back up the main street and back to the presbytery, with my head under his arm!
That would take about 1 hour to walk that distance.
I went home and thought about it, and rang him up and said that if God can forgive me, I can forgive those that hurt me, and said lets forget about it.
That was the last time I was going to the catholic church for help, that was weird!

[Tj3]

I'll let reasonable people decide between your interpretations and the Church's.

You mean between what the Bible says and your denomination's interpretation, because that is what we are discussing.

Your explanation leads to the conclusion that Christ's flesh avails nothing.

Eating His flesh is the context, and He (Jesus) says that eating it avails nothing - that He used His flesh as symbolic of the Spirit and the word.

[De Maria]

You mean between what the Bible says and your denomination's interpretation, because that is what we are discussing.

No, unlike you, I can distinguish between YOUR OPINIONS and what Scripture says.

Eating His flesh is the context, and He (Jesus) says that eating it avails nothing - that He used His flesh as symbolic of the Spirit and the word.

Again, Jesus says that eating His flesh (and drinking His Blood) avails to eternal life:

Here we see it negatively stated.

John 6 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

In other words, if you don't eat MY Flesh and drink MY Blood, you have not life in you.

Then we see it positively:

John 6 55 He that eateth MY flesh, and drinketh MY blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

In other words, if you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you have everlasting life.

Note finally, that He says, "THE" flesh profiteth nothing.

64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing.

If He meant to deny what He had previously said, He would have said,

MY Flesh and MY Blood profiteth nothing.

But He didn't. He clearly distinguished the difference between His Flesh and THE flesh.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

No, unlike you, I can distinguish between YOUR OPINIONS and what Scripture says.

Heh heh heh - got to start sniping eh? Must be running short of arguments!

Again, Jesus says that eating His flesh (and drinking His Blood) avails to eternal life:

Here we see it negatively stated.

John 6 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

If you stop there without reading Jesus' explanation, then you are relying on your own private interpretation. I'll take Jesus' interpretation over that of any man any day.

[Tj3]

It depends upon whether they are saved.
What is necessary to be saved? You have to be brought into spiritual contact with the saving death of Jesus by faith and baptism and loyal membership in his Church, by love of God and neighbors, proved by obedience to His commandments, by the sacraments, especially Holy Communion, by prayer, and good works and by final perseverance, that is persevering God’s friendship grace until death. A Catechism for Adults, Rev. William J. Cogan,

Scripture says:

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
NKJV

[ScottRC]

You have to be brought into spiritual contact with the saving death of Jesus by faith and baptism and loyal membership in his Church,

HUH?

So you have to be a "loyal" member of the Catholic Church or you don't go to heaven? :confused:

Please clarify... because your posts seems to be TOTALLY against the teachings of the Church.

Thanks.

[N0help4u]

HUH?

So you have to be a "loyal" member of the Catholic Church or you don't go to heaven? :confused:

Please clarify... because your posts seems to be TOTALLY against the teachings of the Church.

Thanks.

Even though I agree that saintjoan is not right in their statement
WHERE did she say 'Catholic' Church and were do you get the impression that they are TOTALLY against the teachings of the Church when it looks like they seem to believe that through the church the only way to be saved.

De Marie even says herself that the Catholic Church is the only True religion

saintjoan
It depends upon whether they are saved.
What is necessary to be saved? You have to be brought into spiritual contact with the saving death of Jesus by faith and baptism and loyal membership in his Church, by love of God and neighbors, proved by obedience to His commandments, by the sacraments, especially Holy Communion, by prayer, and good works and by final perseverance, that is persevering God's friendship grace until death. A Catechism for Adults, Rev. William J. Cogan

[De Maria]

De Marie even says herself that the Catholic Church is the only True religion

Why yes, that is true.

And I agree with what I've read by St. Joan and ScottRC to this point.

I believe what St. Joan has reasonably left out is what is contained in paragraph 847 of the Catholic Catechism:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

But lets be real. Its hard to include every single detail of every single doctrine in a short summary.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

So it wasn't that she was wrong as scott implied but his question would seem to contradict the Catholic teaching and saint joan's reply was actually that she left something out.

[Tj3]

HUH?

So you have to be a "loyal" member of the Catholic Church or you don't go to heaven? :confused:

Please clarify... because your posts seems to be TOTALLY against the teachings of the Church.

Thanks.

Actually, that is the teaching of the Roman Church. I posted a link to the information on here (cannot remember if it was the same thread) not too long ago.

[De Maria]

so it wasn't that she was wrong

Not in my opinion.

as scott implied but his question would seem to contradict the Catholic teaching

I don't see that either. Show me.

and saint joan's reply was actually that she left something out.

Correct. That is what I see. Either of them may correct me if I'm wrong.

Sincerely,

De Maria