[CHSaint]

The Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that if we don't hear the Church (Matt 18:17) we should be treated as heathen.

Yet some people say we should neglect the Church and listen to Scripture alone?

Why, if doing so is to disobey Scripture?

There is a commandment: "Honor the Sabboth Day to keep it holy". Church is our fellowship, gathering, and strengthing of our Christian walk through Scripture reading etc... Going to church is part of being a Christian and sharing in the body of Christ. Faith is not a personal thing, but something to be shared (taught and learned). A verb not a noun. Therfore requires action, and church is one of those actions. Sola Scriptura does not mean not to go to church.

[ScottRC]

The Bible forbids praying to or through anybody but Jesus

I believe otherwise... and my belief is founded upon MY INTERPRETATION of Scripture... so who decides what is the truth?

I can quote verse after verse from Scripture to "prove" that prayers to saints are certainly supported by the Bible... for instance:

MT 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (St. Luke's Gospel 20:38 adds "for to him all are alive" or "for all live unto him")

... but as always, the Bible alone shows that it is not FORMALLY SUFFICIENT to determine orthodoxy... all we can do is go back and forth with Bible quotes without ever settling the matter.

And this brings me back to the reason I left the Protestant faith and joined the Catholic Church... I just couldn't believe in a faith that believes God would establish a Covenant with all mankind through His Son's precious Blood, and then put mankind in a situation where they could never agree as to what this God really requires of them..?

[N0help4u]

Okay would like to hear them can you start a new post with them?

[ScottRC]

okay would like to hear them can you start a new post with them?

I think you missed the point-------> why bother?

All we can do is go back and forth with Bible quotes without ever settling the matter... if you are just curious to learn the Catholic teaching on this, I'd be happy to provide them... but I'm wondering what would be the point otherwise?

[N0help4u]

Its up to you because I really don't like arguing verses back and forth for the most part but I do like to learn what others believe so you are right it will just be discussion for the most part.

[ScottRC]

Its up to you because I really don't like arguing verses back and forth for the most part but I do like to learn what others believe so you are right it will just be discussion for the most part.

Done.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ts-243086.html

[Tj3]

I believe otherwise... and my belief is founded upon MY INTERPRETATION of Scripture... so who decides what is the truth?

Scripture says that NO MAN can interpret the Bible.

2 Peter 1:20
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
NKJV

We are therefore to allow scripture to interpret itself.

I can quote verse after verse from Scripture to "prove" that prayers to saints are certainly supported by the Bible... for instance:

MT 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (St. Luke's Gospel 20:38 adds "for to him all are alive" or "for all live unto him")

This refers to those who are alive in Christ but does not permit nor even mention prayers to the dead. The prohibition against communication with the dead in Deuteronomy uses a word which refers to those dead in the flesh. Read 1 Samuel 28 if you want to see God's response to communicating with a dead saint.

... but as always, the Bible alone shows that it is not FORMALLY SUFFICIENT to determine orthodoxy... all we can do is go back and forth with Bible quotes without ever settling the matter.

Are you saying that there is no right interpretation? I contend that there is but men keep trying to force their interpretations and opinion on what the Bible says, instead of submitting themselves to what it says.

And this brings me back to the reason I left the Protestant faith and joined the Catholic Church... I just couldn't believe in a faith that believes God would establish a Covenant with all mankind through His Son's precious Blood, and then put mankind in a situation where they could never agree as to what this God really requires of them..?

I am neither protestant nor Catholic, but to me it makes no sense to say that you are going to leave one denomination for a denomination which insists that its own manmade interpretation of the Bible is right and adds to the Bible because men are forcing their own interpretations on the Bible. Why not just submit yourself to the Bible instead of submit yourself to another interpretation of men?

[ScottRC]

Scripture says that NO MAN can interpret the Bible.
----------------------
We are therefore to allow scripture to interpret itself.

Huh?

Where do we play into this?

Does the Bible give us a hint after it interprets inself?

This refers to those who are alive in Christ but does not permit...

Okey dokey.

Are you saying that there is no right interpretation? I contend that there is but men keep trying to force their interpretations and opinion on what the Bible says, instead of submitting themselves to what it says.

No... I know that there is... I'm just wondering how YOU would determine what the Bible says since you've already stated you are not allowed to interpret it.

Why not just submit yourself to the Bible instead of submit yourself to another interpretation of men?

Wouldn't my personal interpretation be yet another interpretation of "man"?

With respect, your post does not make much sense... I'm not allowed to interpret scripture for myself, but yet you insist that I should submit myself to my personal interpretation??

Who's on first? :) God bless you for your answers.

[Tj3]

Does the Bible give us a hint after it interprets inself?

Personally I don't think that the word of God is a joking matter - but to each his own.

No... I know that there is... I'm just wondering how YOU would determine what the Bible says since you've already stated you are not allowed to interpret it.

We allow the Bible to speak to us, interpret itself.

Wouldn't my personal interpretation be yet another interpretation of "man"?

It would indeed.

With respect, your post does not make much sense... I'm not allowed to interpret scripture for myself, but yet you insist that I should submit myself to my personal interpretation??

How you managed to twist and mis-represent what I said into that is beyond me.

Maybe you can tell us why you would submit yourself to another man's interpretation (i.e. your church)?

BTW, do you reject what the word of God says about prohibiting private interpretation? If so, by what authority do you judge God's word to be in error?

Deut 12:8
8 You shall not at all do as we are doing here today--every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.
NKJV

[N0help4u]

With respect, your post does not make much sense... I'm not allowed to interpret scripture for myself, but yet you insist that I should submit myself to my personal interpretation??

Once again we have said repeatedly it is not up to personal interpretation, nobody is saying it should be personal interpretation but that a churches doctrine/tradition should be backed by the scripture. I think I have said that about 12 - 15 times in this post.

[ScottRC]

We allow the Bible to speak to us, interpret itself.

Biblical relativism is no joking matter to me... but to each his/her own.

Maybe you can tell us why you would submit yourself to another man's interpretation (i.e. your church)?

Seemed to work for those who followed the Apostles... I figure that's good enough for me, but your results may vary.

BTW, do you reject what the word of God says about prohibiting private interpretation?

I don't reject it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again we have said repeatedly it is not up to personal interpretation, nobody is saying it should be personal interpretation but that a churches doctrine/tradition should be backed by the scripture. I think I have said that about 12 - 15 times in this post.

You can say it a million more times... but it does not answer my questions.

Who decides that a churches doctrine/tradition is "backed by the scripture"?

The Catholic Church claims that all of her doctrines and traditions can be "backed" by scripture... that you don't agree with their interpretations is not the point... I still want to know by what authority do you determine what is and what is not "backed by the scripture"?

[N0help4u]

The denomination
Like Luther, Protestant, assemblies of God and trusted theologian scholars etc...

What I am saying is NO you can't just decide to interpret the Bible yourself to your own satisfaction and not back it up with nothing but what you want to get out of it to fit your own
Agenda like De Marie seems to think we mean.
We are not saying Tom can interpret to his liking or I can to mine.

[ScottRC]

The denomination
Like Luther, Protestant, assemblies of God and trusted theologian scholars etc...

So each one can determine for themselves what the truth is?

Wouldn't that mean that one is right and all the others are wrong?

That does not sound like something God intended: hardly the "pillar" of truth if you are a member of one of the hundreds/thousands of denominations that are wrong.

We are not saying Tom can interpret to his liking or I can to mine.

I understand that... and thank you for trying to explain... but I'm not making that argument... I'm just trying to establish by what means do non-Catholic Christian groups determine orthodox teaching/doctrine.

[N0help4u]

Maybe none have it all right but we have to go with the conviction in our heart what we believe to be right. Just like the atheist can not see how believers have faith and you can not understand how we believe as we do and vice a versa we have to be convicted and convinced fully in our hearts and then it is up to God.

[ScottRC]

Maybe none have it all right but we have to go with the conviction in our heart what we believe to be right.

I can't argue with that my friend...

I'm just wondering why this does not apply to me and my Church..?

:)

[Tj3]

I understand that ... and thank you for trying to explain... but I'm not making that argument... I'm just trying to establish by what means do non-Catholic Christian groups determine orthodox teaching/doctrine.

Have we not said it enough times?

[N0help4u]

You are free to believe your church but my question is where in the Bible does it back up Purgatory and other doctrines?

[Tj3]

You are free to believe your church but my question is where in the Bible does it back up Purgatory and other doctrines?

Yep! No church has the right to say that their doctrinal teaching is beyond testing by the measure of scripture.

Even the Apostle Paul encouraged men to go to scriptures to see if what he said was true.

Acts 17:10-11
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
NKJV

[N0help4u]

Yeah look at some of the New Testament Churches they were far from perfect like Galatians and Corinthians

[ScottRC]

You are free to believe your church but my question is where in the Bible does it back up Purgatory and other doctrines?

*sigh*

I hate this game you folks like to play.

A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness (Purgatory)
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Now you'll tell me: "NO! You're wrong!----- I'm RIGHT"