[N0help4u]

Where did I agree that sola scriptura contradicted the bible?

I also never said that works of iniquity would be burned
Did you misunderstand my reply?

IN fact I asked you if purgatory was before or after the judgment of the believers three times and you never did answer that.

[Tj3]

Odd, I don't see the word "biblical" doctrine in there. I see where he said, "2 Timothy 2
2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

Taking it out of context, you wouldn't.

Nor do I. But, since Jesus created the Church, I accept her authority:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

My denomination is the Church which Jesus built. And the Church which Jesus built is called the Pillar of Truth in the Bible. If you had a higher authority than that Church, you would be mentioned in said Bible, but you aren't.

So, try again. Just saying you have higher authority than the Church doesn't make it so.

But the key here is - what is the church? It is NOT your denomination or any other. Scripture is abundantly clear on that point. A point that you seem unwilling to consider from a scriptural perspective. If you are looking at the wrong church, then you are taking your direction from the wrong source. The true church would never stray from God's written word.

Not true. You follow YOUR interpretation of Jesus word. That is not the same thing since your interpretation is erroneous.

I allow scripture to interpret itself.

[De Maria]

where did I agree that sola scriptura contradicted the bible?

You said you didn't believe in Sola Scriptura here:

Message #26:

I never claimed to go by scripture only but that everything should be able to be backed by scripture.

I also never said that works of iniquity would be burned
Did you misunderstand my reply?

No. You agreed that works of iniquity is sin and you agreed that works are burned before the Judgement seat.

Message #223:

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Ok. I get the reference. So works of iniquity are sin.

Now, are these works tested? If so, where?
In the Judgment of the unbelievers. The great white throne judgment.
Unsaved sinners will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

IN fact I asked you if purgatory was before or after the judgment of the believers three times and you never did answer that.

Yes I did. Message #222

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
You never did answer my question is purgatory before or after the judgment?

I believe it is the Judgement.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Taking it out of context, you wouldn't.

Since neither the word "biblical nor Scriptural is there anywhere, I would say that I've proved you took it out of context.

But the key here is - what is the church?

I agree.

It is NOT your denomination or any other. Scripture is abundantly clear on that point. A point that you seem unwilling to consider from a scriptural perspective. If you are looking at the wrong church, then you are taking your direction from the wrong source. The true church would never stray from God's written word.

1. The Catholic Church has never strayed from God's word.
2. It is the denominations which follow the tradition of men known as Sola Scriptura which have strayed from God's word.
3. The Church described in Scripture describes the Catholic Church:
Daily Mass:
Acts Of Apostles 2 42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers...

Holy Eucharist:
1 Corinthians 10 16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

One Shepherd:
John 21 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

One Lord, One faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

One doctrine:
Romans 16 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.

Justification by faith and works
James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

Prayer to Saints:
Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

Suffering to expiate sin:
1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:

Infallible Church:
1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Authoritative Church:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Teaching Church:
Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

I allow scripture to interpret itself.

Does Scripture say that it interprets itself? Or rather does Scripture say that it can be misunderstood?

2 Peter 3 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

And that they need to be explained:

Acts 8 27 And rising up, he went. And behold a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore. 28 And he was returning, sitting in this chariot, and reading Isaias the prophet. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?

31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man show me?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Since neither the word "biblical nor Scriptural is there anywhere, I would say that I've proved you took it out of context.

Reaching for the bottom of the barrel with that one, aren't you? I am sure that you know that the words are descriptive of the doctrine and need not exist in the text (i.e trinity). I am ausre that you are also aware that this approach would be fatal to your "purgatory" argument.

But the key here is - what is the church?

I agree.

You say that you agree and then avoid the question.

1. The Catholic Church has never strayed from God's word.

I cannot believe that you even believe that - the doctrines such as purgatory and the belief in worshiping saints, Mary etc. are bad enough, but ever heard of the Borgia popes?

It is the denominations which follow the tradition of men known as Sola Scriptura which have strayed from God's word.

You've done a poor job of trying to defend that position. Indeed you have even indicated that you have mis-understood what the term means.

The Church described in Scripture describes the Catholic Church

There were no denominations in the 1st century.

But I do believe that there is a description of the Roman Church in the book of Revelation.

[De Maria]

Reaching for the bottom of the barrel with that one, aren't you? I am sure that you know that the words are descriptive of the doctrine and need not exist in the text (i.e trinity). I am ausre that you are also aware that this approach would be fatal to your "purgatory" argument.

Wrong in both cases TJ.

First of all, the doctrines being taught are not necessarily explicit in Scripture. Therefore they have to be preached. And that is exactly what we are talking about. A Tradition which goes hand in hand with Scripture. Spreading the same information and more importantly putting it into practice from the time that Jesus mouthed the words.

And that is certainly not fatal to the idea of purgatory since even the Jews were praying for their dead before the advent of Jesus. This is explicitly taught in the Deuterocanonicals which Luther took out of the Christian Bible:

2 Machabees 12 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

You say that you agree and then avoid the question.

No, I agree that in order to come to agreement, we must agree on what is the Church.

You believe the Church is an invisible amorphous entity composed of people who don't agree with each other on anything except that they can ignore the visible Church and that they can interpret Scripture any way the wind blows.

I believe the Church is the Body of Christ,
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Imbued with His Power:
Matthew 28 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

With authority to make disciples of the world:
Luke 16 15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

I believe my understanding is supported by Scripture.

I cannot believe that you even believe that - the doctrines such as purgatory and the belief in worshiping saints, Mary etc. are bad enough, but ever heard of the Borgia popes?

We don't worship Mary or the Saints. However, we do pray to them in imitation of Scripture:

Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

but ever heard of the Borgia popes?

Yes, I have.

You've done a poor job of trying to defend that position.

Actually, I think I've done a superlative job.

Indeed you have even indicated that you have mis-understood what the term means.

No actually, it is you who alleged that I didn't know what Sola Scriptura meant. And then when you finally provided your definition, it turned out to be almost exactly as the one I provided. Which was not mine but Luther's by the way.

There were no denominations in the 1st century.

True. Denominations are a result of Luther's reformation. In the first century only the Catholic Church existed.

But I do believe that there is a description of the Roman Church in the book of Revelation.

Yes, there is:
Apocalypse 21 9 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Reaching for the bottom of the barrel with that one, aren't you? I am sure that you know that the words are descriptive of the doctrine and need not exist in the text (i.e trinity). I am ausre that you are also aware that this approach would be fatal to your "purgatory" argument.

Wrong in both cases TJ.

First of all, the doctrines being taught are not necessarily explicit in Scripture. Therefore they have to be preached. And that is exactly what we are talking about. A Tradition which goes hand in hand with Scripture. Spreading the same information and more importantly putting it into practice from the time that Jesus mouthed the words.

And that is certainly not fatal to the idea of purgatory since even the Jews were praying for their dead before the advent of Jesus. This is explicitly taught in the Deuterocanonicals which Luther took out of the Christian Bible:

2 Machabees 12 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

You say that you agree and then avoid the question.

No, I agree that in order to come to agreement, we must agree on what is the Church.

You believe the Church is an invisible amorphous entity composed of people who don't agree with each other on anything except that they can ignore the visible Church and that they can interpret Scripture any way the wind blows.

I believe the Church is the Body of Christ,
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Imbued with His Power:
Matthew 28 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

With authority to make disciples of the world:
Luke 16 15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

I believe my understanding is supported by Scripture.

I cannot believe that you even believe that - the doctrines such as purgatory and the belief in worshiping saints, Mary etc. are bad enough,

We don't worship Mary or the Saints. However, we do pray to them in imitation of Scripture:

Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

but ever heard of the Borgia popes?

Yes, I have.

You've done a poor job of trying to defend that position.

Actually, I think I've done a superlative job.

Indeed you have even indicated that you have mis-understood what the term means.

No actually, it is you who alleged that I didn't know what Sola Scriptura meant. And then when you finally provided your definition, it turned out to be almost exactly as the one I provided. Which was not mine but Luther's by the way.

There were no denominations in the 1st century.

True. Denominations are a result of Luther's reformation. In the first century only the Catholic Church existed.

But I do believe that there is a description of the Roman Church in the book of Revelation.

Yes, there is:
Apocalypse 21 9 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[sndbay]

I believe the Church is the Body of Christ,
[I]Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church

De Maria

Christ is the head of the body of the church.. which means the body are the members of a ministry within a structure. Christ is known as the foundation as well.

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.


Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Who is the servant of all? The church.. Who is the servant working for? Christ

[Tj3]

Wrong in both cases TJ.
First of all, the doctrines being taught are not necessarily explicit in Scripture. Therefore they have to be preached.

This makes no sense. One should not preach a doctrine which is not clearly taught in scripture. Preaching something does not make it true. BTW, Maccabees is not only not canonical, but the author does not claim inspiration, but rather attributes it to himself alone. Maccabees was added at the council of Trent - but of course you even reject the New Catholic Encyclopedia when it disagrees with you.

And that is certainly not fatal to the idea of purgatory since even the Jews were praying for their dead before the advent of Jesus.

It seems that you are trying to introduce yet another topic (and false doctrine) to further obfuscate the issue at hand.

No, I agree that in order to come to agreement, we must agree on what is the Church.

You believe the Church is an invisible amorphous entity composed of people who don't agree with each other on anything except that they can ignore the visible Church and that they can interpret Scripture any way the wind blows.

You are having a hard enough time defending what you believe without trying to thoroughly mis-represent what I believe.

I believe the Church is the Body of Christ

Then it is not your denomination. The first denomination was the Roman Catholic Church created in 325AD as I already proved (but you continue to deny because it does not agree with you)

We don't worship Mary or the Saints. However, we do pray to them in imitation of Scripture

I'd be happy to prove otherwise, using quotes directly out of Catholic writings. Prayer, BTW is a form of worship, and you will find no prayers to anyone but God endorsed in scripture.

No actually, it is you who alleged that I didn't know what Sola Scriptura meant. And then when you finally provided your definition, it turned out to be almost exactly as the one I provided. Which was not mine but Luther's by the way.

Then you did not read what I posted.

BTW, the Roman Catholic church is described, not in the passage you quoted, but Rev 17:1-6.

[N0help4u]

I don't understand why OR HOW you manage to twist things I never said sola scriptura contradicts the Bible!

HOW can the Bible contradict the Bible!?

[sndbay]

I believe the Church is the Body of Christ,
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Imbued with His Power:
Matthew 28 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

De Maria

Christ is the head of the body of the church.. which means the body are the members of a ministry within a structure. Christ is known as the foundation as well.

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.



Try taking all that is being said when refer to scripture 1 Colossians1:24

Col 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;, Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

As for Imbued with His Power: More like Imbued in His service or rule Matthew 28 18 All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

[De Maria]

Christ is the head of the body of the church.. which means the body are the members of a ministery within a structure. Christ is known as the foundation as well.

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.


Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Who is the servant of all? The church.. Who is the servant working for? Christ

I agree with everything you have said in this message. It reflects very well the teaching of the Church:
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 86

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

I agree with everything you have said in this message. It reflects very well the teaching of the Church:
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 86

Then you should be able to show me where scripture says that man becomes God (CCC Article 460)

[De Maria]

This makes no sense. One should not preach a doctrine which is not clearly taught in scripture.

1. You just shot down Sola Scriptura.
2. And you just contradicted your previous message, you said:

I am sure that you know that the words are descriptive of the doctrine and need not exist in the text (i.e trinity).

Preaching something does not make it true. BTW, Maccabees is not only not canonical, but the author does not claim inspiration, but rather attributes it to himself alone. Maccabees was added at the council of Trent - but of course you even reject the New Catholic Encyclopedia when it disagrees with you.

The Septuagint version of the Old Testament existed before Christ. It includes the Deuterocanonicals, which include the Maccabean books.

It seems that you are trying to introduce yet another topic (and false doctrine) to further obfuscate the issue at hand.

Read the thread again. You accused the Church of adding 7 books (message #228). And Nohelp4u reintroduced purgatory into this thread (message #201).

You are having a hard enough time defending what you believe without trying to thoroughly mis-represent what I believe.

Wouldn't it be a better idea, instead of saying that I misrepresent what you say, showing where the misrepresentation is to be found.

After all, you said I misrepresented Sola Scriptura. But the definition you produced is virtually identical to the one I produced.

Then it is not your denomination. The first denomination was the Roman Catholic Church created in 325AD as I already proved (but you continue to deny because it does not agree with you)

No, any reasonable person reviewing that exchange will see that you read into the document what you wanted to get out of it. The document does not say that St. Constantine created the Church. And that is what you claimed.

I'd be happy to prove otherwise, using quotes directly out of Catholic writings. Prayer, BTW is a form of worship, and you will find no prayers to anyone but God endorsed in scripture.

The word "prayer", like almost every word in the dictionary, has more than one meaning.

To a Catholic, prayer to the Saints is not worship but request. And we find requests of the Saints throughout the Scriptures:

Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 14 18 And they began all at once to make excuse. The first said to him: I have bought a farm, and I must needs go out and see it: I pray thee, hold me excused.

Acts Of Apostles 27 34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat for your health's sake; for there shall not an hair of the head of any of you perish.

Ephesians 3 13 Wherefore I pray you not to faint at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Therefore, we pray to the Saints to request their intercession before God.

Then you did not read what I posted.

Yes, I did.

BTW, the Roman Catholic church is described, not in the passage you quoted, but Rev 17:1-6.

1 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials, and spoke with me, saying: Come, I will show thee the condemnation of the great harlot, who sitteth upon many waters, 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they who inhabit the earth, have been made drunk with the whine of her whoredom. 3 And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery; Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications, and the abominations of the earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration.

No, actually, the Whore of Babylon is not the Catholic Church. . You are most definitely reading that into Scripture. It is in fact, Jerusalem. Let me show you.

Babylon described as a whore:

Revelation 17 1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Israel is described as a whore:

Hosea 9 1Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God,
Thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

Jerusalem described as a harlot (which is another word for whore):

Isaiah 1 21How is the faithful city become an harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Ezekiel 16 1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, ….15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Babylon is clothed in finery:

Rev 17 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Jerusalem clothed in finery:

Ez 16 10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. 13Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD. 15But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Babylon kills the prophets and saints:

Rev 17 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs
Of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Jerusalem kills the prophets and saints:

Matthew 23 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Babylon is described as "that great city":

Rev 17: 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Rev 18: 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour is thy judgment come.

The "great city" is the city in which Jesus was crucified:

Rev 11: 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. . The Kings of the earth gathered in Jerusalem to crucify Christ.

Rev 17: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication

Acts 4: 26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Babylon and Jerusalem are built on seven mountains:

Revelation 17: 9And here is the understanding that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth, and they are seven kings:

Jerusalem is built on seven mountains: Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

Babylon is destroyed by fire:

Rev 18: 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire

Jerusalem is destroyed by fire:

Ez 23: 25And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.


God calls His people out of that city:

Rev 18: 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Paul calls people out of Jerusalem:

Heb 13: 12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

The harlot, Jerusalem is redeemed:

Isaiah 2 1The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Revelation 21: 10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

All of that is directly from Scripture. . Try as I might, I couldn't find any reference to Rome as a whore or harlot in Scripture. Try as I might I could find no reference to the Catholic Church as a whore or a harlot in Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

1. You just shot down Sola Scriptura.
2. And you just contradicted your previous message, you said:

-----
NO you are not following his points

Sola scriptura is not ones personal interpretation it is taking a doctrine and backing it WITH scripture IF it can not be backed with scripture then it is false teaching.
Sola scriptura goes by the word not being left to personal interpretation.
I do not understand where you get that it does.

[De Maria]

Then you should be able to show me where scripture says that man becomes God (CCC Article 460)

2 Peter 1 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

John 10 34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

1 Corinthians 12 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

John 1 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

I don't understand why OR HOW you manage to twist things I never said sola scriptura contradicts the Bible!

HOW can the Bible contradict the Bible!!????

The man made doctrine called Sola Scriptura contradicts the Bible.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

1. You just shot down Sola Scriptura.
2. And you just contradicted your previous message, you said:

-----
NO you are not following his points

Sola scriptura is not ones personal interpretation it is taking a doctrine and backing it WITH scripture IF it can not be backed with scripture then it is false teaching.

Not so. Sola Scriptura says that doctrine is backed by Scriptura ALONE.

The Church agrees that if a doctrine is not backed by Scripture, it is false. That is why Sola Scriptura is false.

However, many people can twist Scripture to their own desires. Scripture is clear that this is possible. Therefore the Church requires that doctrine must ALSO be backed by Tradition.
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Sola scriptura goes by the word not being left to personal interpretation.
I do not understand where you get that it does.

Very simple. It is you and TJ who tell Catholics to disregard the Church. Why?

Because you believe YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture is superior to Church interpretation.

Yet the Bible calls the Church the Pillar of Truth. So how can your interpretation trump Church interpretation?

And that means that you put your interpretation of Scripture even ABOVE Scripture itself.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

I found this somewhere --lost the link

According to Phillips, the quotation from Psalm 82:6 agrees
exactly with the Septuagint (81:6) and the Masoretic text.
God's representatives were called "gods. " Additionally, not
only did God call men elohiym but also they were called "sons of
God," a term that emerged later. These humans were those who
should have administered justice according to the Law of God,
and thus represent God's will to the people. It is from that
historical situation that Jesus derived the principle that
divine commissioning permits individuals to bear the divine
title.

John 10:36 then reveals the crux of the argument, and at the
same time the crux of our interpretive dispute; Jesus draws
attention to the work of the Father on His behalf - the Father
sanctified Him and sent Him.

In light of biblical precedent (vv. 34-35) and the work of the
Father on His behalf, Jesus asked, "How can you accuse Me of
blasphemy when I, too, claim the divine title rightfully?" From
what I have read, the words, huios ton theon eimi, have elicited
a far amount of controversy. As I am sure Andre will gleefully
point out, "son" is without the definite article, and working
from that base he will content that Jesus was clarifying the
fact that He was not God and that He never claimed to be equal
with the Father. There are others, however, who attack it from
a different vantage by maintaining that Jesus was merely
silencing His opposition, attacking them through clever
sophistry. "The argument is admittedly ad hominem and indeed is
little better than a play on words, for Jesus claims to be the
'Son of God' in a very different sense." (MacGregor, The Gospel
of John)

if X is
true, then how much more must Y be true.
The only remaining conclusion is that Jesus spoke the truth, and
that He was "one with the Father." His appeal to Scripture is a
bit of a fortiori argument.


According to this view Jesus is repeatedly being misunderstood.
He was a rabbi whose teachings were so novel that their very
uniqueness undermined accurate preservation, particularly as His
words were filtered through the Jewish theology of first and
second century disciples. However, glimpses of Jesus, who
occasionally tried to "set the record straight," have been
preserved (as in the present passage). His words might be
paraphrased as follows:

Does not even your Scripture, which you regard as absolutely
truthful, call human beings "gods"? Then why do you get so
upset and accuse me of blasphemy when I only claim to be "a son"
of God?


Also remember gods is little g and what does the Bible say about the gods of this world?

[arcura]

Tj3,
We become one with God the Son though partaking of the holy Eucharist.
Here also I'll give you Cody's answer to that on para 460 of the CCC.
"This part of the Catechism does not mean that we become omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. But the best and simplest explanation that I can give for this is that to "become God" and be "sharers in [Christ's] divinity" refers to the fact that the individual members of Christ's church make up his body, and thus him.

Remember the words of Jesus to Saul in Acts 9:1-5.

'Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that, if he should find any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains. On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."'

Notice that although Saul was persecuting the followers of Christ, Jesus said he was persecuting HIM.

Furthermore, CCC 460 also refers to our goal of holiness. Here is the full text of 2 Peter 1:4.

"Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire."

So, by becoming free from sin and of the evils in the world, we share in the divine nature. That is, by becoming so holy we become like God and, in a certain sense, become God.

I hope this answered your questions.

With many prayers,
-Cody"