[sndbay]

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Christ = Son oF Man

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[sndbay]

Nowhere in any of this do I see a denial that we must Eat His Flesh to live eternally. Please highlight it if that is what you meant to do.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Christ was speaking metaphorically.. John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

We agree that Christ sacrificed His body.. There is a metaphorically meaning in the difference, and again I state that Christ, Himself made that clear to the disciples in John 6:63.

[De Maria]

Christ was speaking metaphorically.. John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

We agree that Christ sacrificed His body.. There is a metaphorically meaning in the difference, and again I state that Christ, Himself made that clear to the disciples in John 6:63.

Lets look at the Bread of Life discourse again.

Do you see where the Disciples understand Him literally?

John 6 61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?

Did Jesus say, "No, no, I am speaking metaphorically?"

No, He didn't. He said:

62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

What does this mean? You said it before, He is revealing that He is God. He is saying, "If you understood that I am God, you would believe it."

And then He makes the distinction between THE flesh and His flesh which I mentioned befiore.

And fnally He challenged the Apostles to leave:
68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?

But they don't go. Why? Because, although they don't understand, they believe He is the Son of God:
69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

That is the test even today. We step by faith and not by sight. Do you believe that Jesus is God? Then why don't you believe His Word?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Christ was speaking metaphorically.. John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

We agree that Christ sacrificed His body.. There is a metaphorically meaning in the difference, and again I state that Christ, Himself made that clear to the disciples in John 6:63.

Yep. In John 6, Jesus says that it is those who thought that He was speaking of real flesh that betrayed Him.

[N0help4u]

Yep. In John 6, Jesus says that it is those who thought that He was speaking of real flesh that betrayed Him.

They are also the ones that thought Jesus came to uphold traditions and set up an earthly kingdom.

[De Maria]

Yep. In John 6, Jesus says that it is those who thought that He was speaking of real flesh that betrayed Him.

Where?

[Tj3]

Yep. In John 6, Jesus says that it is those who thought that He was speaking of real flesh that betrayed Him.

Where?

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. NKJV

Now Jesus now says that the flesh profits nothing. This appears contrary to verses 53-4 that state that we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and if we do, we receive eternal life, but then Jesus clarifies by stating that Jesus says that the words are the spirit and the life. This is why it is important to continue on and read the full context because Jesus has just struck to the very heart of the doctrine of transubstantiation by saying that the flesh does not profit us at all. Rather He says, that the life comes from the spirit, not the flesh and it is the words that bring the spirit.

Words = spirit = life, Flesh does not profit anything.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 4:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. KJV

It is God's word that brings life and the spirit, not eating the flesh. Therefore, even if the bread were changed to flesh, there would be no benefit from eating it. Now, remember earlier in this document, it was noted that human flesh and blood do perish and yet the bread that Jesus offered did not perish? Here is the explanation. Jesus was not speaking of bread, or of blood or of flesh but was speaking of the words of God which bring life. God word and the life which comes from God's word (the Gospel) are eternal. Bread, flesh and blood are perishable, but God's word and salvation which comes from receiving the gospel are eternal.

64a But there are some of you who do not believe.

Some do not believe that the flesh profits nothing rather and thus do not believe that it is His words that give the spirit and life. If they do not believe that the flesh profits nothing, then they must believe that it is the flesh rather than His words that He is speaking about.

64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

63 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

The Apostles remain true and believe that the flesh profits nothing but rather believe in His words for the spirit and life. What could be the words that Jesus speaks which bring life? It is the words of truth, the truth of who He is, the truth or why He came to earth in the flesh and the words that give us the truth of the gospel, the only words which can bring us eternal life. Thos who believed that He was speaking about the actual eating of flesh and drinking of blood missed the point of the gospel and were not saved. Those who stayed understood that without a sacrifice and without the shedding of blood, their was no remission of sins, and that Jesus was the lamb of God, sent to be the ultimate sacrifice, the only sacrifice which could actually take away sins and restore us to a right relationship with God.

[De Maria]

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. NKJV

Now Jesus now says that the flesh profits nothing. This appears contrary to verses 53-4 that state that we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and if we do, we receive eternal life, but then Jesus clarifies by stating that Jesus says that the words are the spirit and the life. This is why it is important to continue on and read the full context because Jesus has just struck to the very heart of the doctrine of transubstantiation by saying that the flesh does not profit us at all. Rather He says, that the life comes from the spirit, not the flesh and it is the words that bring the spirit.

Look at it again. Notice how He distinguishes between "His Flesh" and "the flesh"

Jesus never says, "my" flesh profits nothing. He says "the" flesh profits nothing.

Words = spirit = life, Flesh does not profit anything.

You skipped an important point here. Jesus says, His words are spirit and life. Which words? The ones He has just spoken.

John 6 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 4:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. KJV

It certainly is.

First, man does not live by bread alone. Therefore Jesus provided His Flesh.
Second, it is the Word of God made flesh that we eat.

It is God's word that brings life and the spirit, not eating the flesh.

Of course not. But it is the eating of His Flesh which brings life and spirit. Your flesh avails naught. My flesh avails naught. Only Christ's Flesh avails much because it is He who took flesh for the salvation of the world.

Therefore, even if the bread were changed to flesh, there would be no benefit from eating it.

Of course you are correct. If bread were changed to beef or if bread were changed to TJ's flesh. There would be no benefit whatsoever.

But since the bread was changed by the Word of God to His Son's Flesh, then it avails much indeed.

Now, remember earlier in this document, it was noted that human flesh and blood do perish and yet the bread that Jesus offered did not perish? Here is the explanation. Jesus was not speaking of bread, or of blood or of flesh but was speaking of the words of God which bring life. God word and the life which comes from God's word (the Gospel) are eternal. Bread, flesh and blood are perishable, but God's word and salvation which comes from receiving the gospel are eternal.

But Jesus Flesh and Blood are not perishable:
Acts Of Apostles 13 35 And therefore, in another place also, he saith: Thou shalt not suffer thy holy one to see corruption.

64a But there are some of you who do not believe.

Some do not believe that the flesh profits nothing rather and thus do not believe that it is His words that give the spirit and life. If they do not believe that the flesh profits nothing, then they must believe that it is the flesh rather than His words that He is speaking about.

That is a false interpretation of this Scripture. Some do not believe that Jesus gives us His Flesh and Blood as real food and drink unto life eternal.

64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

This is specifically about Judas.

72 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

63 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

The Apostles remain true and believe that the flesh profits nothing but rather believe in His words for the spirit and life.

That doesn't even make sense. The disciples who believed that Jesus was speaking left because they did not believe that Jesus Flesh profiteth unto eternal life. That is why they said, it is a hard saying.

Obviously, the Apostles believed that Jesus Flesh availeth much.

What could be the words that Jesus speaks which bring life? It is the words of truth, the truth of who He is, the truth or why He came to earth in the flesh and the words that give us the truth of the gospel, the only words which can bring us eternal life.

Of course but in this context it is the words He just spoke. He just said that His Flesh is real food and that we must eat His Flesh if we want life eternal.

Thos who believed that He was speaking about the actual eating of flesh and drinking of blood missed the point of the gospel and were not saved.

No, you've missed the point. Those who understood but could not believe that He was speaking of His Flesh were the ones who were not saved.

Those who stayed understood that without a sacrifice and without the shedding of blood, their was no remission of sins, and that Jesus was the lamb of God, sent to be the ultimate sacrifice, the only sacrifice which could actually take away sins and restore us to a right relationship with God.

And what happens to the sacrifice of the paschal Lamb?

Exodus 12 4 But if the number be less than may suffice to eat the lamb, he shall take unto him his neighbour that joineth to his house, according to the number of souls which may be enough to eat the lamb.

And what is Jesus?
1 Corinthians 5 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Look at it again. Notice how He distinguishes between "His Flesh" and "the flesh"
Jesus never says, "my" flesh profits nothing. He says "the" flesh profits nothing.

The same word for "the" is used in describing "the Spirit". Are you saying that "the spirit" is generic spirit that gives life? Be consistent!

You skipped an important point here. Jesus says, His words are spirit and life. Which words? The ones He has just spoken.

So you ignore all His other words? On what basis?On what basis do you reject and ignore His explanation of what He meant?

This is specifically about Judas.

Read more carefully. This passage refers to "some". Verse 71 refers to Judas:

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
NKJV

[De Maria]

The same word for "the" is used in describing "the Spirit". Are you saying that "the spirit" is generic spirit that gives life? Be consistent!

In the discourse, did Jesus ever mention His Spirit? No? Then you know that when He speaks of THE Spirit, He is speaking of a particular Spirit. Can you guess which?

So you ignore all His other words? On what basis?On what basis do you reject and ignore His explanation of what He meant?

On the contrary, I take all His words into account. His words are spirit and life.

Read more carefully. This passage refers to "some". Verse 71 refers to Judas:

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
NKJV

65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

It also refers to who he was that would betray Him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

In the discourse, did Jesus ever mention His Spirit? No? Then you know that when He speaks of THE Spirit, He is speaking of a particular Spirit. Can you guess which?

So you are saying that it is just anyone's spirit that gives life then - is that right?

[Tj3]

It also refers to who he was that would betray Him.

Verse 72 is referring to verse 71. Read the whole thing, not just pieces.

[Peter Wilson]

The reason for the passover meal was to remember the Lord's covering of the blood when the destroying Angel killed all the first born of Egypt. It was the beginning of the deliverance of Israel. The bread and wine represented the passover lamb and the blood on the doorposts. It was done in remembrance of God's salvation.
Jesus comes as our passover lamb, we do this to remember what He has done for us, He is not sacrificed weekly, He died once, for all. This is what we remember, not some religious sacrement or tradition. It is a tradition,but not a religious one, but it is to remind us, that we have a new testament, written in His blood, for without His body and blood, and ultimate death, we would have no new will and testament.
1 Corinthians 11
The Lord's Supper
23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.

28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

Cheers. :)

[Peter Wilson]

Thank you Nohelp4u, I'm sure we share the same Spirit, Bless you. :)

[De Maria]

So you are saying that it is just anyone's spirit that gives life then - is that right?

No. Here's what I asked:

Originally Posted by De Maria
In the discourse, did Jesus ever mention His Spirit? No? Then you know that when He speaks of THE Spirit, He is speaking of a particular Spirit. Can you guess which?

I am astounded that you can't guess which Spirit is THE Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit gives life. Do you deny it?

John 6 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

Matthew 4 1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil.

Matthew 12 31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Romans 8 4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to THE flesh, but according to the spirit.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Verse 72 is referring to verse 71. Read the whole thing, not just pieces.

Are you doing this to avoid admitting that you are wrong?

Here's how this particular exchange began:

You posted #27 which said, amongst other things:
64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

I posted #28 where I dissected message #27 and I said:

Quote:
64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

This is specifically about Judas.

72 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

Now, 64b says, "and who would betray Him." Obviously this refers to Judas and verse 72 confirms that it refers to Judas.

So, please, divide the word rightly.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

The reason for the passover meal was to remember the Lord's covering of the blood when the destroying Angel killed all the first born of Egypt. It was the beginning of the deliverance of Israel. The bread and wine represented the passover lamb and the blood on the doorposts. It was done in remembrance of God's salvation.
Jesus comes as our passover lamb, we do this to remember what He has done for us, He is not sacrificed weekly, He died once, for all.

Correct. Who sacrifices Jesus weekly?

This is what we remember, not some religious sacrement or tradition.

Do you remember it every year? Has this been passed down for centuries? Then by what stretch of the imagination is this NOT a tradition?

It is a tradition,

Ok, this is getting confusing. Didn't you just say,
This is what we remember, not some religous sacrement or tradition.

So, please explain, if you don't remember any traditions, how do you remember this one?

but not a religious one,

What does religious mean to you? Because to me it means:
# concerned with sacred matters or religion or the church; "religious texts"; "a member of a religious order"; "lords temporal and spiritual...
# having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity; "a religious man"; "religious attitude"
# of or relating to clergy bound by monastic vows; "the religious or regular clergy conducts the service"
# a member of a religious order who is bound by vows of poverty and chastity and obedience
# extremely scrupulous and conscientious; "religious in observing the rules of health"
Wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

In what sense is this not a sacred matter? In what sense is this not concerned with belief in God?

but it is to remind us, that we have a new testament, written in His blood, for without His body and blood, and ultimate death, we would have no new will and testament.

So, you only do it for yourself but not in obedience to God because you love God:
John 14 23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word,

1 Corinthians 11
The Lord's Supper
23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.

28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

Cheers. :)

This verse tends to substantiate my argument. Perhaps you could highlight where you believe it substantiates yours.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

I am astounded that you can't guess which Spirit is THE Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit.

Right - just as when the same verse speaks of "the flesh" (using the same word for "the" in Greek) it means Jesus' flesh (as we can also discern from the context).

That was my point.

You were trying to suggest that "the flesh" meant something different because of the use of the word "the", leaving the impression that you were denying that it is the Holy Spirit who gives life.

[Tj3]

Are you doing this to avoid admitting that you are wrong?

Nice try, but a clear reading of John 6 says that verse 72 is referring to verse 71 - no matter how you try to wiggle out of it.

John 6:62-71
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65

Note how the reference to those (plural) who would betray Him by not believing that the flesh referred to His word is here all in one single sentence - so it cannot be separated as a separate though without so thoroughly twisting so as to make the passage un-recognizable from the original text. Nor can one rightly claim that one half of the sentence belongs with verse 72.

As for the latter part of the passage, it would be a serious mangling of the whole chapter to try to make verse 72 refer to anything but verse 71.

70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
NKJV

[De Maria]

Right - just as when the same verse speaks of "the flesh" (using the same word for "the" in Greek) it means Jesus' flesh (as we can also discern from the context).

That was my point.

You were trying to suggest that "the flesh" meant something different because of the use of the word "the", leaving the impression that you were denying that it is the Holy Spirit who gives life.

The term THE flesh is also commonly used in Scripture. And THE flesh does not speak of Jesus flesh unless it modifies it explicitly such as, "the flesh of the son of Man".

Here are some examples:
John 8 15 You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man.

Romans 7 5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members, to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 8 1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.

2 Corinthians 1 17 Whereas then I was thus minded, did I use lightness? Or, the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that there should be with me, It is, and It is not?

Sincerely,

De Maria