[WVHiflyer]

I suppose I believed in a god once, but it was more because everyone I knew did, the society I grew up in did (northern edge of 'Bible Belt'). My first turns away were because I saw how corrupt and self-serving organized religions are. My last visit to a service was when the minister was preaching against Communism instead of giving a Scriptural sermon or talk.

I found that those who most loudly proclaimed their faith, were those who seemed most to ignore their own teachings. They were judgemental and bigoted and self-righteous. But while my dimming view of religion had a part to play, it was only to make me question more. The more I learned about how Nature is and works, the less need I had for a divinity or supernatural entity to explain it. Eventually, I realized that I couldn't believe at all in such a being or force.

Some philosopher on this subject noted that most atheists seem to become that way gradually, while those who become believers generally do so because of a single event. Wonder why?



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[WVHiflyer]

this is exactly what i am talking about lobroster! Science is no longer about discovery of reality, it has descended into a bitter quabbled between creationists and evolutionists instead of looking for truth many scientists now just have an agenda.

Sassy, don't start here. It would be rude to allheart. Besides, scientists are not the ones who "descended into a bitter quabbled" <sic> They simply started to fight back against anti-scientists who wanted to inject the supernatural into science. (And yes, I mean Creationists, including IDers who want their non-science to be taught in public schools' science classes. Those views don't belong there.)



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[sassyT]

Sassy, don't start here. It would be rude to allheart. Besides, scientists are not the ones who "descended into a bitter quabbled" <sic> They simply started to fight back against anti-scientists ?? (correction anti-DARWINISM) not science who wanted to inject the supernatural into science. (And yes, I mean Creationists, including IDers who want their non-science to be taught in public schools' science classes. Those views don't belong there.)



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Again, I MACRO Evolution not Science. The essence of the scientific method is measurement, observation and repeatability. Neither Creation nor Evolution are scientific in this sense. Neither one can be tested, for the simple reason that we cannot repeat history. The origin of the universe, life and mankind all took place in the past and cannot be studied or repeated in the laboratory. No one, in all human history has ever observed macro evolution taking place anywhere not even in the fossil record or bacteria.
Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation.. both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of 100% irrefutable proof.
You keep insisting macro evolution is fact and it is science, that is your belief, the realityis macro evolution is a theory on origins that has no evidence. A myth if you like.

That is all I will say just to correct you.. I will not get off subject on this thred. ;)

[KalFour]

Again, I MACRO Evolution not Science. The essence of the scientific method is measurement, observation and repeatability. Neither Creation nor Evolution are scientific in this sense. Neither one can be tested, for the simple reason that we cannot repeat history. The origin of the universe, life and mankind all took place in the past and cannot be studied or repeated in the laboratory. No one, in all human history has ever observed macro evolution taking place anywhere not even in the fossil record or bacteria.
Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation..both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of 100% irrefutable proof.
You keep insisting macro evolution is fact and it is science, that is your belief, the realityis macro evolution is a theory on origins that has no evidence. A myth if you like.

that is all i will say just to correct you.. i will not get off subject on this thred. ;)

Ok... despite the fact that this is derailing the topic...

Evolution is pretty hard to argue against. It is CLEARLY visible in day to day life... we can't repeat history, but we CAN and have been able to observe very distinct changes in species that have brief lifespans. It doesn't take long to get through a few dozen generations of mice or moths.

Despite that, the Bible says that man was created in God's image, so according to the Bible, PEOPLE don't evolve... but everything else can. There's no way to definitively prove that people evolved from apes nor disprove it. But evolution definitely happens.

And as far as I'm concerned, the evolution argument is completely irrelevant in discussions about faith.

Right... let's get this train back on track.

[ordinaryguy]

It isn't that I stopped believing in God, it's that I came to feel that belief itself is not as important as I used to think it was. It's OK to just accept that there are ineffable mysteries that don't need to be "solved". To treat a mystery as a puzzle is to misunderstand its nature.

[sassyT]

[QUOTE]

Ok... despite the fact that this is derailing the topic...

Evolution is pretty hard to argue against. It is CLEARLY visible in day to day life... we can't repeat history, but we CAN and have been able to observe very distinct changes in species that have brief lifespans. It doesn't take long to get through a few dozen generations of mice or moths.

Please don't confuse Micro and Macro evolution. Of course MICRO evolution is an irrefutable fact. Changes within a Genus has been observed and is a fact. I have no problems with believing animals of different species such as the wolf, coyote, and fox all may have shared a common canine ancestor (microevolution), but the line gets drawn when Darwinists insist that these species also share a common ancestor with dolphins or fruit flies or even palm trees.. lol where is the evidence for that?

Despite that, the Bible says that man was created in God's image, so according to the Bible, PEOPLE don't evolve... but everything else can. There's no way to definitively prove that people evolved from apes nor disprove it. But evolution definitely happens.

That is not true no where in the bible does it say man does not evolve. Man's SPIRIT was made in God's image not his body. Humans all share a common HUMAN anscestor (not an ape like creature) so man has obviously micro evolved to adapt to different environments.
Micro evolution is consistent with the Bible because according to the Genesis model of origins, God created not each individual species, but the wider genus to which each species belongs. Within each genus He provided a blueprint for diversity, enabling each genus to split, over time, into numerous species (a process called speciation).

And as far as I'm concerned, the evolution argument is completely irrelevant in discussions about faith.

Darwinist do display faith in that the micro evoltution will lead to large scale changes. It takes faith to believe a monkey share a common ancestor with a palm tree.. there is no evidence for that so it takes a leap of faith to believe that.

Right... let's get this train back on track.

That's right...

[simoneaugie]

Sassy, did you lose faith? Those who have lost their belief in a heavenly father are sharing heart felt truths about themselves.

If you're not knee-jerking in anger, then what the heck are you doing on this thread?

[Credendovidis]

posting to sassyT : If you're not knee-jerking in anger, then what the heck are you doing on this thread?

She seems to be completely obsessed with the "A-in-G" and/or "ICR" creationist's views, and insists on posting her rants on "evolution" and/or "the origin of the universe" everywhere...
I have asked management for a science based discussion board, to direct posts on these subjects out of here ! Just waiting for their reaction...

:)

·

[asking]

Dear Allheart,
You didn't ask this, but I wondered if you knew that some people like myself have never believed in God. My father was raised a Protestant and knew the Bible backwards and forward, but he was an atheist by the time I came along and so was my mother. I don't think she ever believed. We never went to church, and my parents never prayed or talked much about religion at all. They didn't say anything against God because they didn't believe that such a thing existed. We celebrated Christmas and Easter, but just with a tree and presents, an easter egg hunt and lamb, but nothing religious.

I knew about church because I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood and I used to go the local Catholic Church with my friends and they explained about holy water and showed me the candles, etc.

When I was about 7 my Catholic friends told me I would go to Hell and described it in scary detail. I was terrified. I talked to my mother and she said it was up to me whether I believed in God. That decision seemed like a terrible burden, but I was afraid of going to Hell, so I remember sitting on my bed many afternoons for several weeks, trying really hard to believe in god. I concentrated so hard, but I knew that honestly I wasn't truly believing. I thought it had to be genuine to count. I just didn't know where to get belief from. I was so afraid of burning, until it dawned on me that if I didn't believe in God, then I didn't have to believe in Hell. So then I felt relieved and stopped worrying about it so much.

When I was 14, my mother died and I started hanging out more with friends because my father was at work all day and I was lonely. My friends all went to Sunday school and I asked if I could come. I went for a few weeks, but it didn't make a lot of sense to me. I asked a lot of questions, but I was very interested and I remember enjoying the time there. But the instructor said I asked too many questions and asked me not to come any more. So, although I was interested in learning more, I wasn't welcome.

That really hurt, since I thought that churches were all about taking people in. If I wasn't worth even trying to save, I must be pretty bad! And yet, I'd always been a good kid, getting good grades, obeying my parents and teachers. I was about as eager to please as you can imagine and never got into any trouble. Never stole anything or did drugs, even when kids around me were. But I wasn't welcome at Sunday school. :)

After that, I listened to different people talk about their faith, and the ideas they talked about were interesting to me, but I never could believe that those ideas came anywhere but from other people. I didn't believe they were from God. I went to different churches when people asked me to, always watching with interest and curiosity.

One follower of reverend Moon talked to me for several hours over several days. I listened and we talked about lots of different things. But when I told him that I didn't believe in God, he said, "But you're so nice!" It seemed like he was expecting someone evil or mean. It was funny, but it also hurt. I have values and morals like anyone else. I can guarantee those don't come from God because I have them even though I don't believe.

I always used to tell people that the a in atheist means "without" God, not "against" God. I never felt any hostility towards people who believed in God, although over the years, I have been annoyed by having to hide my atheism while others flaunt their belief and by people telling me that I must be evil. And because of my interest in biology, the fight against teaching biology to school kids has been something I have to disagree with, although I sympathize with parents who feel threatened by evolution. But my argument is not with belief in god by people for whom he is important and a source of love and support. To a degree, I envy that, even though it's not for me.

My older sister became Eastern Orthodox in her early 20s. I often went to church with her to show respect for her belief. But then after her children were grown, she reverted to being an atheist. I think all but one of her children are now atheists too. I asked how she could go from being an atheist to a believer and she said she never really believed, which was both surprising to me and a bit of a relief, since I could not believe myself and wondered how she could.

I have long suspected that if you aren't raised to believe in God, it's very difficult to believe as an adult. For me, God is no different from the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause. I say that not to trivialize faith, but to show how very hard it is for me to believe in God. I simply cannot do it. It would be easier for me to believe that the sun wasn't going to rise tomorrow. But my lack of belief does not itself come from any feeling against god anymore than I feel anything against the tooth fairy. I'm indifferent to the idea of god.

I met someone recently who said he started as an atheist and came to believe in God, but after to talking to him, it seemed to me that his idea of what God was was very vague, not someone you could really pray to and expect an answer. Not a personal god who watches out for you. I think to have that, you have to be taught to believe when you are a toddler. He just believed that the universe is a big place with some vague meaning embedded in it. To me, that's not really God, just kind of an intellectualization of awe. I feel awe all the time, but I don't call it God.

I hope this helps answer your question even though it isn't technically how I fell away from God, but how I could never believe and never felt the church or God as any kind of personal haven.

With warm wishes,
Just Me

[lobrobster]

Asking:

That was very interesting and I truly enjoyed reading it. But I think the moral can be summed up in one sentence...

We are ALL born atheists.

[Skell]

Hi my good friend Allheart,
Hope you are good..
I like many others only believed in God at a young age because everyone else seemed to. It was somewhat the norm. I'm not from a religious family although when filling out forms that asked for Religion we would put Anglican. I have been Christened though my younger brother hasn't. Mum and dad never got round to it so I guess that shows how religious we are.

Since I've been old enough to think for myself I just haven't been able to conceive how god could possibly exist. I just simply have no faith whatsoever. I'm happy for others to do so but for me it is simply inconceivable.

[Stringer]

Since all of you were so kind and open, I thought it only right to share with you why I do believe in God. I couldn’t list all the reasons, but will share just a couple of snapshots.

My childhood was difficult, as many of ours may have been. I don’t go into detail, as I find that within the difficulties are many immense blessings, and I never wish for pity. Nothing to be pitied about.

With that said, God truly did carry me through my entire childhood and I knew within all by being that He was right there watching over me. He sheltered me from storms and protected me, and allowed me to smile in my heart and within my soul. He blessed me with 4 incredible sisters who we share a love and bond, that no words can ever express.
He also blessed me with a husband, that never is there a day that I have a doubt, it was God’s intentions to bring us together.

I did go to Catholic school and my favorite subjects were Religion and English. I wasn’t an academic achiever by no means, but I worked hard to get the grades I knew would keep me out of trouble with Mom.

It did hurt my heart and soul that I saw some of the nuns favor greatly the students who did academically excel. I remained quiet and just watched and smiled. My parents were divorced, strike 2 for me. Not an honor student and from a divorced home. Back then, divorce was not common and was very frowned upon. Strike 3, I had to get a reduction in tuition because Mom couldn’t afford the whole cost….and strike 4, I was on Student Government, without being an honor student, and yes, I was judged my the sisters (nuns). Not all, but some, actually most.

During Student Government Office elections for my Senior year, a handful of students, who wanted their National Honor Society friend, to get President, did something very awful. They went to one of the sisters (nuns) and told them an awful untruth about me. As God is my witness, it was and is untrue. Anyway, the Guidance sister, called me down to her office, and layed into me, about this untruth. And told me my whole junior class told her it was true. I was horrified, speechless, my mind completely went blank. I can’t even remember anything after I kept saying, “Sister that is so untrue, it’s not true.”. After I felt I wasn’t believed by her, I went to the Principles office, who was a priest, and knew my Mom oh to well, as she called him constantly when she drank, to complain about me and my sisters.

I said Father, and I began my story, he turned to me, and said “I heard all about it” and then he chuckled. Chuckled!!! I was horrified. All I kept thinking is, I will be dead tonight. My mother is going to paralyze me, and he is chuckling?????? He said, he knew the results of the top 8, and I had nothing to worry about. That it was like an election in the real world, and not to worry. The other side is just going after the top vote getter. I said, “Father….my mother???”. He looked at me and said, “She will believe you”.

Okay then Father, if you think my Mom will take my word over a sisters….then I will have faith too. I went home, Mom was on the couch reading the paper after a hard days work…I moved towards the step, and sat a couple of steps up from the bottom, in case I had to take off running. I said, “Mom…..something happened in school today…Sister ***** accused me of……smoking pot….( to this day I hate pot because of this incident, never tried it, and never will)….and Mom it’s not true…Mom put her paper down, looked at me, and said, “ I believe you”….and started reading the paper again. Ooooooh the glee I had. I have to say, it was one of the most happiest days of my life. The next day, at school, my head was high, I smiled at the girl, who started it all…and never looked away. Oh, and the girl, who started it all? The Advanced placement student, National honor Society, the one adored by the nuns, was suspended about two weeks later, for disrupting a classroom. How I tried so hard not to be overjoyed by that, but I did contain it.

And I was elected President of my school. I never retailed against those who tried to hurt me, but the damage they could have cost me, still horrifies me, as Mom was very strict. Being President, however, was a very hollow victory, and painfully achieved, as I then learned, that life can be unkind, but God will always keep us safe. Not because I got President, in a way that whole incident saddens me. To boot, after my year, my school made it mandatory that all those who hold office, must have honors. Of course, I don’t agree with that.

So, yes, I was judged, even by those of my own faith. But of course I instantly forgave them all, as they are only human. And it was not all the sisters, and I have had many more beautiful, wonderful learning life experiences from sisters, much more positive then negative.

This may seem like a trivial reason why my faith is so strong, and it’s not actually a reason, but just one event, I share with you, to let you know the strength that God does employ in my life.

How hard it is to turn the other cheek, and sometimes the cost are painful, but in doing so, honestly the rewards are great.

God has been so good and is so good, and I just wanted to share this precious gift with all of you.

Our road will at times never be easy, choices hard to make, confusion and the like, but God has promised to never leave our side, we just have to leave room for Him.

Thank you for letting me share with all of you, something that was a painful event in my life, as I could not believe people could be so unkind, and the hurt that I still carry does remain, as they have no idea how their untruths could have truly caused me great harm, by their was God’s loving arms to protect me.

May peace and joy be with all of you always.

Allheart, I haven't said hello to you in a while, but I see you haven't changed my dear, you are still a blessing to us all, deserving or not.

Stringer

[Stringer]

I suppose I believed in a god once, but it was more because everyone I knew did, the society I grew up in did (northern edge of 'Bible Belt'). My first turns away were because I saw how corrupt and self-serving organized religions are. My last visit to a service was when the minister was preaching against Communism instead of giving a Scriptural sermon or talk.

I found that those who most loudly proclaimed their faith, were those who seemed most to ignore their own teachings. They were judgemental and bigoted and self-righteous. But while my dimming view of religion had a part to play, it was only to make me question more. The more I learned about how Nature is and works, the less need I had for a divinity or supernatural entity to explain it. Eventually, I realized that I couldn't believe at all in such a being or force.

Some philosopher on this subject noted that most atheists seem to become that way gradually, while those who become believers generally do so because of a single event. Wonder why?



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Quick question; do you know where Greensburg, Murrysville, Penn Hills and Harrison City are located?

Stringer

[Allheart]

I once again, want to thank all of you, for opening up and sharing. Your writings are done in such a beautiful and honest way, and all of your caring nature shines through in your post.

I wish I could address you each individually.


I do wonder, if I wasn't raised with religion being the most important thing, specifically, God, would I now believe as strongly as I do. I guess that's why I am so very grateful to my Mom, and whole family, for making God a part of my life.

I do completely understand those who are turned off, by some Organized religions. But we have to remember, anytime, man gets their hands on something, there's always the possibility to incorporate things that just should not be.

It's funny, the one thing constant in my life is my belief and love for God. But I only share that, as all of you have shared your incredible words with me.

I have learned so very much and you have opened my eyes to thoughts and feelings that I never been exposed to and I do truly thank you for this insight.

I cherish each of you for sharing and I know most of you have shared that you don't believe that God exsist, but in my heart, and with all the sincerity I can share, I don't judge, nor wish to force my beliefs on anyone, but I also open my heart to each of you,
And hope that you can see God's love there.

May you all be blessed with all the happiness and may each day bring sunshine.

I sincerely thank each of you again,
Allheart

[ordinaryguy]

But my lack of belief does not itself come from any feeling against god anymore than I feel anything against the tooth fairy. I'm indifferent to the idea of god.

Thanks for telling your story. I was raised to believe, but have come to see it as not so much wrong as irrelevant. Some good and kind people seem to think it's their belief in God that makes them that way. Some bigoted and intolerant people seem to think it's their belief in God that makes them that way. I doubt it, in both cases.

I discovered a new word awhile back that seems more accurate than "atheist" to describe my approach to belief--"apatheist": One who doesn't find the question of God's existence very interesting or relevant. I also share a sense of awe and an appreciation for mystery, but it seems to me that trying to name and characterize it in excruciating detail cheapens and trivializes it. I find it more satisfying to just accept it and appreciate it and stop all the intellectual tinkering with it.

Thanks again for taking the time to tell your story.

[asking]

I discovered a new word awhile back that seems more accurate than "atheist" to describe my approach to belief--"apatheist": One who doesn't find the question of God's existence very interesting or relevant. I also share a sense of awe and an appreciation for mystery, but it seems to me that trying to name and characterize it in excruciating detail cheapens and trivializes it. I find it more satisfying to just accept it and appreciate it and stop all the intellectual tinkering with it.

Me too! I just stumbled on that word at wikipedia and liked it very much.

And I feel the same way about awe and my sense of mystery. I REALLY don't like talking about it, as it seems to take a lot away from it and the person you talk to usually doesn't quite understand what you are saying and it comes back wrong.

[WVHiflyer]

Quick question; do you know where Greensburg, Murrysville, Penn Hills and Harrison City are located?

Stringer

Yes, yes, yes, no.





<G> Greensburg is south of here. Penn Hills is closest.



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[Stringer]

Yes, yes, yes, no.





<G> Greensburg is south of here. Penn Hills is closest.



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Born in the Greensburg Hospital, mostly raised in and around Jeannette... :)

[WVHiflyer]

Stringer - nice to meet you. I was born in Clarksburg, WV to a long line of WV hillbillies.




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[JoeCanada76]

I once again, want to thank all of you, for opening up and sharing. Your writings are done in such a beautiful and honest way, and all of your caring nature shines through in your post.

I wish I could address you each individualy.


I do wonder, if I wasn't raised with religion being the most important thing, specifically, God, would I now believe as strongly as I do. I guess that's why I am so very grateful to my Mom, and whole family, for making God a part of my life.

I do completely understand those who are turned off, by some Organized religions. But we have to remember, anytime, man gets their hands on something, there's always the possiblilty to incorporate things that just should not be.

It's funny, the one thing constant in my life is my belief and love for God. But I only share that, as all of you have shared your incredible words with me.

I have learned so very much and you have opened my eyes to thoughts and feelings that I never been exposed to and I do truly thank you for this insight.

I cherish each of you for sharing and I know most of you have shared that you don't believe that God exsist, but in my heart, and with all the sincerity I can share, I don't judge, nor wish to force my beliefs on anyone, but I also open my heart to each of you,
and hope that you can see God's love there.

May you all be blessed with all the happiness and may each day bring sunshine.

I sincerely thank each of you again,
Allheart

Allheart, your always sharing your beautiful heart to all that are here. May God bless you always. Just wanted to say that you truly a gift from God. I can not answer any of these questions. I have always had strong beliefs in God since very young and it has never changed. We all have our own stories and reasons and experiences. I took part by reading every one of the responses. Interesting to see what everybody shares with each other, in a very respectful and friendly way...