[Tj3]

Galviston1,
Not so.
Jesus did say that this IS, my body, this IS my blood.
I believe what God the son said.
Jesus blood is divine blood, not any ordinary kind.
God is the law giver. If He says to eat His Body and Drink His blood then so be it and millions of people have been doing so for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

But Fred, in John 6 Jesus said specifically and explicitly that He was NOT referring to the physical flesh and blood, but rather that it was those who thought that was the case that betrayed Him.

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
NKJV

[arcura]

Tj3,
Never-the-less Jesus SAID this Is my Body, this IS my blood.
I hope you do not mind if I believe what Jesus said.
When Jesus told his followers that "truly, truly" his body was food indeed and his blood drink indeed many walked away. The twelve did NOT. They accepted what Jesus said.
I note that Jesus did NOT call the ones who left back. Jesus meant exactly what he said and so do I and over a billion other people.
You believe as you wish as I will. OK?
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Never-the-less Jesus SAID this Is my Body, this IS my blood.
I hope you do not mind if I believe what Jesus said.
When Jesus told his that "truly, truly" his body was food indeed and his blood drink indeed many walked away.

Fred,

It is important that we not stop there and neglect to read the whole of what Jesus said when He explained what He meant, otherwise you are taking Jesus' words out of context.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

I note that Jesus did NOT call them back. Jesus meant exactly what he said and so do I and a billion other people.

He did indeed mean what He said. Those who thought that He was referring to actual flesh left Him.

John 6:61-63
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

Why did He not call them back? They rejected His words. They only heard what they wanted to hear.

You believe as you wish as I will. OK?

You are always welcome to believe as you wish.

[arcura]

Tj3,
You believe it your way, Tom, and I will believe it as I said, I believe Jesus made it clear that his body IS food indeed and His blood drink indeed, truly, truly.
That is good enough for me.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
You believe it your way, Tom, and I will believe it as I said, I believe Jesus made it clear that his body IS food indeed and His blood drink indeed, truly, truly.
That is good enough for me.

Yes, Fred, and then He explained what He meant:

John 6:54-61
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
NKJV

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

We abide by the words that Jesus has spoken - that is the Holy Scripture.

This is in agreement with what Jesus said in the gospel according to Matthew:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

[arcura]

Tj3,
Thanks Tom, I'm glad to see that you finally agree that the Eucharist IS the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Since you say you believe what Jesus "truly, truly" said the discussion is over.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Thanks Tom, I'm glad to see that you finally agree that the Eucharist IS the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Since you say you believe what Jesus "truly, truly" said the discussion is over.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

How you managed to twist what I said into that is beyond me.

Fred, why won't you read the last portion of John 6 where Jesus explains what He means?

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
NKJV

We abide by the words that Jesus has spoken - that is the Holy Scripture.

This is in agreement with what Jesus said in the gospel according to Matthew:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

Why won't you deal with the issue raised earlier by someone else that Jesus would have sinned if He commanded eating of human flesh?

And I must tell you, the problems with the belief in transubstantiation in scripture do not end there. Not by a long shot.

[Criado]

I have also comments on the previous post but I would like to give comment on the original question.

As you have quoted above, the church is being taught by the bible, thus, it is important.

Matthew 28:20 states "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen". So, blatant negligence of the importance of the church is disobeying Christ.

[Tj3]

I have also comments on the previous post but I would like to give comment on the original question.

As you have quoted above, the church is being taught by the bible, thus, it is important.

Matthew 28:20 states "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen". So, blatant negligence of the importance of the church is disobeying Christ.

Yes, but that raises the question of "what is the church?". Is it the body of Christ? Is it the building that you enter on Sunday morning? Is it the congregation of people of who attend with you Sunday morning? Is it your church organization or denomination?

This is a critical question to answer because how we will respond depends greatly on how the word "church" is used in a specific context.

[Criado]

Yes, but that raises the question of "what is the church?". Is it the body of Christ? Is it the building that you enter on Sunday morning? Is it the congregation of people of who attend with you Sunday morning? Is it your church organization or denomination?

This is a critical question to answer because how we will respond depends greatly on how the word "church" is used in a specific context.

The church is the body of Christ. It is never a building made by hands of man. There is no indication in the bible that a physical building is ever called a church. What I mean here is the real church build by Christ--inclusive of its real biblical essence. It is referred to by the bible as the congregation of saints.

I am just emphasizing the importance of the church because it is part of the teaching of Christ. The term I used "As you have quoted above, the church is being taught by the bible, thus, it is important" only refers to 1 Tim 3:15 and not Matt 18:17 because Matt 18:17 was used out of context.

[lilthechic]

De maria
It is obvious that you are filled with some doubts. My advice is that you talk to God personally. Only He can explain a lot of things like why there is more than one denomination of churches and yet the bible calls us one body in Christ. Sincerely I have never comprehended it and frankly I don't think I will.
I just think you should form a deep and personal relationship with the Father and He would bring all things to your knowledge.
If you seek wisdom only He can give it. I have never felt oblidged to live my life according to church doctrines. I am justified by Christ and any question I have He answers.
Only God can give you a precise and accurate answer to your question.
So ask him.

[Tj3]

The church is the body of Christ. It is never a building made by hands of man. There is no indication in the bible that a physical building is ever called a church. What I mean here is the real church build by Christ--inclusive of its real biblical essence. It is referred to by the bible as the congregation of saints.

I am just emphasizing the importance of the church because it is part of the teaching of Christ. The term I used "As you have quoted above, the church is being taught by the bible, thus, it is important" only refers to 1 Tim 3:15 and not Matt 18:17 because Matt 18:17 was used out of context.

Agreed. The church is the body of Christ, the body of all believers, alive and dead.

I just wanted to clarify the point regarding what the church is because often in these discussions we get people who claim that their denomination or local church building/congregation is "the Church". This is of course not correct because a physical congregation usually consists of both believers and non-believers, and thus cannot be the body of Christ, even though the body of Christ may be part of that congregation.

[De Maria]

So The Church (Catholic) is Christ therefore we are to have faith that whatever the Popes declare to be is to be even though there is no Biblical basis and even contradicted in Scripture because The Catholic Church is believed before the scripture?

It is difficult to answer this question because you are hyper interpreting what I said.

1. The Pope does not declare anything which is not in agreement with Scripture.

That doesn't mean it is explicitly in Scripture. But it doesn't violate Scripture. For instance, again the doctrine of Sola Scriptura which you don't follow but many people do. That violates Scripture since Scripture tells us that the Church is also our authority.

2. Since the Catholic Church teaches us the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition, the Catholic Church is never in violation of Scripture. And since the Scripture says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15), we have faith that the Church never will violate Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Christ gave BELIEVERS the power to Bind and Loose so why do you want to give your God given powers over to the Church?

The church is to teach, instruct, edify and strengthen. Not impose rituals.

Scripture tells us that Jesus gave this power to the Apostles who were the foundation of the Church.

And the Church does not impose rituals. These rituals are performed in obedience of Christ's command to "do this in remembrance of me" (Luke 22:19).

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

I best answered your question by using scripture.

And so we put Scripture against Scripture. Or more to the point, your interpretation of Scripture vs the Catholic Church interpretation.

And again I state firmly that the Bible is the Word of God written in scripture.

That is Catholic Teaching.

But Scripture says the Word of God is also passed down orally:

1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.

And since Scripture says that we keep the "traditions" by word and epistle that is, by word and Scripture, why do you seem to be telling me that the Word of God can no longer be passed on by Word?

I also made a statement using the scripture on Peter being told by the priest that he was not to speak of Christ and His blood. Peter replied that he would rather do as God has told him.

But did Peter say that he would rather do as Scripture told Him? No. Because Peter was inspired directly by God. And it is upon Peter that Jesus instituted His Church. So Peter here represents the Church doing what God said.

You are trying to remove Peter from the Church, but that is impossible. Peter is one with the Church because he is one with the Body of Christ.

There are several that call themselves a church.. there are members that attend these church... The question is which church has the foundation of Christ.

A very good question. As before, I believe it is the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church does not contradict Scripture.

And as Peter told the priest, He would follow the Word of God.

And the Church of Peter continues to follow the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition.

Now you tell me, Do you feel the priest felt he knew what Holy Sacred Text was saying better then what Peter knew in his heart?

Did the Priest even mentione Holy Sacred Text? You are reading that into Scripture.

The Priest here represents the Old Testament system in which God also instituted Priests. The new Priests in the New Church in the New Testament are here represented by Peter. It is the Old System vs the New. Not the Scriptures vs the Church. You are reading that into Scripture.

Paul stated in Colossians which I already submitted to you by scripture refer: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Correct and as our Minister in the Church He taught the Word of God in Tradition and Scripture. I see nothing here which even remotely insinuates that we must disregard the Church nor place it against the Scriptures as though one was in competition with the other.

In fact, the Church has the mission of Teaching the Word of God in Scripture and Tradition.

You are asking the same question , and in my opinion you may not like what I find in my heart as Peter did, to be all the Truth.

I believe the Scripture is all the truth as you do. But did the Truth lose its force when it was written down?

1. The Church was inspired Jesus and then by the Holy Spirit to teach the Word of God.
2. Tradition first carried the Word of God and was passed down orally.
3. After the Scriptures were written, Tradition did not lose its force. It retained the Word of God which is now ALSO in Scripture and continues to teach it and pass it on.

Hopefully you also find your church minister, according to the dispensation of God

I do.

1 Peter 1: 17- 21And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Interesting that you would quote this. Do you understand that St. Peter is juxtaposing one tradition vs another. We were not redeemed by the tradition of the Jewish Fathers. But we are redeemed by the Precious Blood of Christ, which we receive in the Chalice whereby we proclaim His death until He come:

1 Corinthians 11 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come.

The Word of God warns us not to be deceived as Eve was by false teaching.

And that is why God has provided us the Pillar of Truth to which we may run to get correct teaching.

I trust he fore told us all things for a very good reason.

I trust He provided the Church for a very good reason.

It was Satan who tempted Christ in twisted scriptures..

The Church does not twist Scripture but teaches Scripture. So what is the point here?

Answer: Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God
.Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Jesus also said:

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 10 27 That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops.

So, my question remains unanswered. Why do you tell us to obey Scripture alone when Scripture obviously tells us to obey the Church?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Point of Interest:
The refer that you yourself have noted was a warning to the church. ( thou oughtest behave thyself )

KJV 1 Timothy 3:14-15 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

It was a warning to the individual Christian. You oughtest behave yourself in the gathering of the Church because it is the household of God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

AND You say the church is infallible? I believe we will let God judge how infallible "YOUR CHURCH" that you put before us really is.

Sounds fair. But more than that. It speaks to our faith in Scripture. I believe Scripture. Therefore I believe there is a Church out there which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth and therefore infallible.

Do you believe Scripture? If you do, which Church do you believe is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

My first love is God and because I love God, I love His Word and it is His Church who taught me to love His Word in Scripture and Tradition.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Do you believe Scripture? If you do, which Church do you believe is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth?

First, what do you believe the "Church" is? The body of Christ? A building? A local congregation? A denomination?

[De Maria]

All this shows the great division between the RC and the rest of Christendom.

Yes and that is a shame:

John 17 11 And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are.

The Catholic Church remains one visible entity teaching one unified doctrine. But the Churches which preach Sola Scriptura are splintered beyond recognition.

We simply do not believe that the RC is THE Church.

That is your prerogative. But Jesus did establish one Church. And none of the Reform Churches qualify since they came after Luther.

We believe that the Scriptures are our complete guide for all things spiritual;

This contradicts Scripture which teaches that we must obey our leaders because they are in charge of our souls:

Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

that no man has the right to change or add to them.

This is true. The Catholic Church has never changed or added to them. The Catholic Church simply teaches them.

It was Luther who added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28. And it was Luther who removed 7 books from the Old Testament.

I don't want to appear hateful, so let me state here that I do not hate Catholics, I see them as deceived.

I understand. Understand that we feel the same in turn.

I personally firmly believe that the RC is one of the oldest, largest cults in the world.

By "cult", you mean the word in the modern sense of "false religion".

But cult simply means religion. Originally the word did not connote anything negative. In that respect, all religions of the world are cults.

In the ancient sense, the Catholic Church is the oldest Christian religion in the world. That is why I believe the Catholic Church is the one that Jesus built. Because Jesus only built one Church.

What did the first Church look like?

Much like the Catholic Church:

Daily Eucharist:
Luke 11 3 Give us this day our daily bread.

Daily Liturgy:
2 Acts Of Apostles 2 46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;

One Shepherd:
John 21 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

One faith
Ephesians 4 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

One doctrine
Romans 16 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.

And there are many other signatures of the Catholic Church in Scripture, in my opinion.

Its members healed the sick supernaturally, cast out devils, raised the dead (In come cases).

You write in the past tense as though this no longer happens? The Church continues to canonize Saints to this day:

List of Canonized Saints.
FAQ's - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Pope Benedict XVI canonized Saints already:
Saints and Blesseds Proclaimed by Pope Benedict XVI

They were given directions from God via the Holy Spirit by tongues & interpretatiion or by word of prophecy. They knew things because the Holy Spirit told them. You only find such things today in the pentecostal movement. (I agree that it is sorely diminished from the Book of Acts, but there are remnants where these things still take place.) For Bible reference see 1 Corinthians Ch 12.

We still find these things in the Catholic Church.

Several major things cause me to reject the RC as the Church.
1. Their rejection of Scripture as absolute authority.

God is our absolute authority. The Word of God is our authority in Tradition and Scripture which is taught us by the Church which Jesus established for that purpose.

2. Their deification of Mary. (I honor Mary for her unique position in God's plan)

Do you honor Mary according to the instructions of Scripture? When?

Luke 1 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

We do. Every time we pray a Hail Mary, we repeat the Words of Scripture:

Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Luke 1 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord (i.e. Mother of God) should come to me?

If God honored this woman with His Word inscribed in Scripture for all eternity, why don't you?

3. Their doctrine of trans substantiation; that the wafer and wine are ACTUALLY the body and blood of Jesus. If it is indeed the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus, then it is an object of worship, and is a form of idolatry. (If you doubt it you need to read Charles Chiniquy's book)

I would rather read the Bible:

Matthew 26 26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. 27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Again, I repeat, I do not hate Catholics, and I find myself in agreement with DeMaria many times, but not here.

Thank you. We have our love of God in common.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

But Jesus did establish one Church. And none of the Reform Churches qualify since they came after Luther.

Do you believe that Jesus established a denomination? This is critical because if you believe that Jesus established a denomination rather than establishing the body of Christ, it will dramatically change how you interpret scripture.

[De Maria]

First, what do you believe the "Church" is? The body of Christ? A building? A local congregation?

You ask the question as though it is an either/or proposition.

The Church is the body of Christ. It is also the body of believers. When the Church congregates, the structure within which it congregates is also called the Church. The Church exists in local congregations, the Church of Houston, the Diocese of New York, the Church in America.

A denomination?

This is a difficult question. Again, as you were careful to mention, I am answering truthfully and without rancor.

The "churches" which resulted after the Reformation are correctly called denominations and not churches. They do not have Apostolic Succession.

The leaders of the Protestant Reformation were all former Catholic Priests. They were not Bishops. Therefore they could not provide Apostolic Succession.

Acts Of Apostles 1 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

The other Schisms before and possibly the Anglican Schism included the defecture of Bishops who could pass on their orders according to Church Tradition. Therefore the Orthodox and possibly the Anglicans may be correctly called Churches.

That doesn't mean that Reformed Christians aren't members of the Body of Christ and therefore members of the Church. That is guaranteed by their Baptism if they are Baptized according to the Scriptural injunction:

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Those Reformed Christians who reject Baptism and the Church but love Christ are deemed Christians because of their desire to be so. But we can only leave them to the mercy of God since they have rejected the ordinary means of justification provided by Our Lord:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1
God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Sincerely,

De Maria