[Allheart]

I tried not to be harsh on you, Allheart. Sorry if that appears to be that way to you.
From me you may believe whatever suits you! But at least take the alternative (reality) also into option!


I can't accept that it will ever happen, Allheart. Dead is dead. Another reason for me to be an active Secular Humanist, and someone who communicates with the for him dear ones to let them know I love them. When I lived in Africa my mother died, and I had a hard time to get to terms with that (... IF I had written, IF I had phoned, IF I had ...) That was a hard lesson for the rest of my life, and I (try to) transfer that lesson to all that are dear to me. And therefore also to you! :)

You will never see anybody back, Allheart. You may believe that of course, but it won't bring them back in reality. Focus on what you can do now and on those who live now, and keep those who died with you in your heart.

(Another suggestion : Add a directory with photo's of all of those that are dear to you to "Documents and settings". Go to configuration panel and set display protection of your monitor to 60 seconds. Switch to slide show the photos in that directory) Wonderful !



·

Hi Cred,

I am so sorry to hear about your Mom. But I will believe for you, that Mom is right there with you and watching over you. There will always be "ifs" and " I should haves" with those that we love, but know in your heart that the love you have for her was and is known by her. Never doubt that.

My loved ones are no longer here, but they do have life Cred, an eternal life. There is not one loved one that I laid to rest, that didn't have the most beautiful look of peace over there face, I couldn't even cry during the viewings, because the look of peace, gave me great joy for them and great peace.

I will tell you this, I firmly believe, that I, Allheart, sadly will not be going directly to heaven. I hope I am wrong, but in my heart and mind, I think there is no way, I am going directly there, when I look and see the suffering of those children, we discussed before. Now, in my heart and mind, they have a direct route. I also believe in purgatory, where those who do believe in God, but still need to atone for their sins, will go.

How's that grab you ;)

Cred, I'm sorry, I know you weren't being harsh with me, but I want you to understand, that I am in no way trying to jam my beliefs down your throat. I am just sharing and I really should thank you, seriously, for the more I share, the more you bring my beliefs to the surface, and the stronger they become.

Thank you for the suggestion about the slide show. What a beautiful memorial to those we do love and still cherish.

[Allheart]

margog85 (may I call you margo?)--

Unless I missed it, you haven't said how old you are, but you remind me of my twentysomething self. I also was raised in the cocoon of The One True Church (different denomination, same concept), and found myself questioning and doubting more and more of what everybody around me accepted as being self-evidently true without comment, much less earnest discussion or soul searching.

What I admire most in your post is the unflinching honesty with which you are confronting your loss of belief. It takes a lot of courage to leave the group and strike out on your own as an individual. It isn't an easy path, and I have sometimes almost (but not quite, not really) envied the friends of my youth who stayed within the cocoon and made a life and career completely enclosed and encased therein.
As far as I've been able to learn (and I have a Ph.D., so you can trust me on this), mathematics is the only field of human endeavor where "proof" is a meaningful concept. Oh, sure, lawyers throw the term around a lot, but there's always some qualifier, "beyond a reasonable doubt", "by a preponderance of the evidence" or some such logically squishy concept.

So if it's proof you really want, study mathematics. Everything else is inference and interpretation.

If you can't, you can't, so stop wasting your effort and attention trying to do the impossible. Accept it, and let it go. There are far more useful things to do with your mind than worry over your inability to believe. I tend to think the difference between people in this regard is either genetic or very early (embryonic) developmental. Some brains are wired that way, some aren't. It can't be helped.


There you go reminding me of myself again. Maybe we both have kind of a minimalist transcendental mind function. It seems like it would be much easier to either have none at all, or else to be fully connected. This having one foot on either side of the crack between the worlds can be unnerving, I'll vouch for that.

Speaking only for myself, I have decided to treat this as is a problem that doesn't need to be solved.
Either they have a personal subjective conviction, (which you obviously don't have) or they take somebody else's word for it (which you apparently can't do). It's one of the many ways people differ from one another. People who would kind of, almost, like to believe the prevailing myths of their culture, but can't really, have probably existed nearly universally, but always as a minority, except possibly during times of great social upheaval.
I would suggest that you reexamine your assumption that whatever-it-is is "out there" and fully approachable by means of observation and reason.

Your will directs your attention. Whether you direct your attention toward the inward, subjective realm, or into the outward, objective world, you will eventually encounter the boundary between Self and Not-Self.

Like every boundary, it's fuzzy if you examine it closely enough.

I wish you godspeed on your quest.

OG you have such a beautiful way of expressing yourself and very complicated issues.

Margog - I respect and admire the beauty you have within. Just the very fact, that you were only seeking answers, or explanations, but didn't wish any conflict, is a beauty that is rare indeed.

Be proud of the beautiful person you are.

[Credendovidis]

There is not one loved one that I laid to rest, that didn't have the most beautiful look of peace over there face ...

I'm also a volunteer at a Secular Humanist Hospes. So I get into contact with many people who's "candles" are almost finished and only flicker in the onsetting night.
We do get many Christian people here too, though most are Humanists or other non-believers. Guess who are dying the most peaceful... Without any fear or fight... Completely at easy with what is happening... Many actually smile or seem happy to let go.
Clue : none of them have Bibles at their bedsides or have read them...

How's that grab ya ;)

I know that fear to have a visit purgatory first rather well : my wife thinks along similar lines...
And I know that pair of cold Roman Catholic feet against me every night... What do you do with them ?

:D :D :D :D :D

·

[goldenboy7115]

I used to be Christian... I was rifling through some old Christian CDs of mine today, and got to thinking... I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something... But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics. I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago...

I guess I just don't get it. How can people understand whatever force or energy or god there is so much to be able to believe something like Christianity, which has so many specifics (that god sent his son, who was also god, to save humanity from their sin... and this son sent the holy spirit, which is also god... that god is three in one...)

I feel like 'faith' is a cop-out when you can't give any real answers for why you believe the things you do... and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things...

How do you believe something that you can't prove, that you can't even REALLY understand? I just don't get it... I know I used to do it, but looking back, I feel like I 'believed' so strongly because I needed to do so... and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly. Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own? And maybe some people are never able to do that, or get caught up in believing in something out of convenience and never progress beyond it?

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

Believe what you feel inside.. it's not always for us to know the what for's and the why's about everything. Remember this.. to interpret for yourself, and not take things so literally.. there is something deep inside each of us that makes us yearn to know more, a spark if you will. People say there is so much chaos in the world and in the universe.. I think if you look more closely you'll see an order to things that only a divine intelligence can comprehend. Sooner or later, we'll know...

[margog85]

ordinaryguy-

Just wanted to take a minute to let you know how much I appreciate your post. It definitely was very helpful to me and gave me a lot to think about.

I am 22, so you were right on the money with that one... =)

And your post reminded me of a question a theology professor of mine once posed- is life a question to be answered or a mystery to be lived? It struck me as an important question when we discussed it years ago, although at the time I couldn't make as much sense of it as I can now... And after giving it some thought... I guess I'll have to just get comfortable with believing that it's a mystery to be lived. Because when it all comes down to it, because I'm not going to have the answers I want.

A lot of times, I feel like... like religion gives people answers to their questions. And helps ease their minds. But for me, it just stirs up more questions, and I get frustrated with answers that I don't feel REALLY answer my question- that seem to just give an explanation to appease me. My mother used to say that as you get older, you don't have more answers- you just learn to become more comfortable with the questions... and maybe that's what I need to learn to do.

[Allheart]

I'm also a volunteer at a Secular Humanist Hospes. So I get into contact with many people who's "candles" are almost finished and only flicker in the onsetting night.
We do get many Christian people here too, though most are Humanists or other non-believers. Guess who are dying the most peaceful .... Without any fear or fight .... Completely at easy with what is happening .... Many actually smile or seem happy to let go.
Clue : none of them have Bibles at their bedsides or have read them ....


I know that fear to have a visit purgatory first rather well : my wife thinks along similar lines ....
And I know that pair of cold Roman Catholic feet against me every night ... What do you do with them ?

:D :D :D :D :D

·

You pray they get warm :D

[Credendovidis]

You pray they get warm :D

The feet or the humanists??

:D

·

[ordinaryguy]

ordinaryguy-

Just wanted to take a minute to let you know how much I appreciate your post. It definitely was very helpful to me and gave me a lot to think about.

Thank you for saying so. Your sincere appreciation is my reward.

And your post reminded me of a question a theology professor of mine once posed- is life a question to be answered or a mystery to be lived? It struck me as an important question when we discussed it years ago, although at the time I couldn't make as much sense of it as I can now... And after giving it some thought... I guess I'll have to just get comfortable with believing that it's a mystery to be lived. Because when it all comes down to it, because I'm not going to have the answers I want.

Yes, I'm a big fan of mystery. The rational intellect is a powerful puzzle solving mechanism, so much so that it can hardly be restrained from turning perfectly good mysteries into insoluble puzzles.

A lot of times, I feel like... like religion gives people answers to their questions. And helps ease their minds. But for me, it just stirs up more questions, and I get frustrated with answers that I don't feel REALLY answer my question- that seem to just give an explanation to appease me. My mother used to say that as you get older, you don't have more answers- you just learn to become more comfortable with the questions... and maybe that's what I need to learn to do.

Yes, and hopefully learn to ask better questions. The better the question, the more satisfying and self-evident the answer tends to be, in my experience. A frustrating answer is often a clue that exposes a foolish or ill-considered question.

[Allheart]

The feet or the humanists ???

:D

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What you hoping for miracles?? Go for the feet my friend ;) :)

[De Maria]

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

I'd love to.

and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly.

What did you find?

I used to be Christian... I was rifling through some old Christian CDs of mine today, and got to thinking... I used to REALLY believe that stuff... and now I REALLY don't. And I guess one of the main reasons is that I feel I need proof...

That is a very reasonable attitude. Although "proof" is a relative term. As the saying goes, "for some no proof is necessary, for others no proof is ever enough."

A lot of things have changed in my life since then, and I've become sort of... more realistic, I guess. More logical. I can't just believe something based on what I was raised to believe... I can't just believe something based on a feeling that could be influenced so easily by my own emotional needs... I can't just believe something based on what others tell me... I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

There's a lot of "can't believe"s here. Somewhere in this message you said that you found something else, so obviously you found something which you can believe. Where did you find this? Did others tell you about it? Or did you "make it up" on your own?

I feel like... there's something else out there.

That is an excellent place to start! We have a point in common.

Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something... But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

For me, it was FAITH in people.

What I mean is, that I had the same feeling as yourself. As you may know, I was atheist, there came a point in my life when I realized that there something else out there. Suddenly, I looked at the world with different eyes. Look at a little child, can you imagine anything so grand occurring by accident? I couldn't anymore. I knew that something or Someone had created them.

But who?

Luckily I had learned many years before, from a wise old Muslim in fact, that "the man who relies solely on his own knowledge is poor indeed." That means that there is an answer out there for virtually every question. All we have to do is find it.

Because if we can't find it, we are doomed to reinvent the wheel. To do it over again by trial and error.

So I searched. I sifted through all the religions with which I was familiar. Hindu, Buddha, Islam, the Protestant sects, mainly Luther's doctrines and finally, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was last, because having been born of Catholic parents, I was convinced that was not the true faith. But, after a few years of reading and comparing doctrines, the Catholic Church convinced me that it is the true Faith.

I just don't understand how people can believe something so strongly, with so many specifics. I can't even get to the point where I can undertand whatever 'energy' is out there (call it god, whatever... just that something else that is behind what we can see)... and I feel like if I'm going to understand what else is out there, I need to understand it in logical steps. Not just a 'feeling' or beliefs based on a book that I can't confirm to be more than just the unfounded beliefs of others thousands of years ago...

That is where "faith" comes in, again.

I realized a long time ago that I had to have faith in people. This was long before my conversion. I mean people my cars, my house, take care of me and protect me personally (i.e. police).

Let me give you an example. I'm one of those rare men that actually ask for directions. I travel quite a bit and whenever I'm in a strange town, I ask people how to find a motel, a Walmart, or something. And people are genuinely helpful.

Of course, this isn't foolproof. Sometimes people, thought acting in good faith, give me the wrong information. And sometimes, I don't understand the information they give me. So, I have to be "discerning" as to what I believe and what I don't.

I guess I just don't get it. How can people understand whatever force or energy or god there is so much to be able to believe something like Christianity, which has so many specifics (that god sent his son, who was also god, to save humanity from their sin... and this son sent the holy spirit, which is also god... that god is three in one... )

Again, that's a matter of faith in people. I believe my history teachers from school. I didn't see or ever meet the people they spoke about, but I believe them none the less.

I feel like 'faith' is a cop-out when you can't give any real answers for why you believe the things you do...

I had faith in my school teachers. I thought they were telling me things for my own good and I believe that they believed what they were teaching me.

My parents were the first to teach me about religion. I feel as though they also were telling me something they meant for my good.

I got to a point when I questioned what my parents taught me. I left all that behind. Then one day, I realized that they were correct, at least in part. Then after searching all around, I came back to what my parents taught me.

The good thing about all that searching is that now, I can give an answer for virtually everything in which I believe.

and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things...

That is true.

How do you believe something that you can't prove, that you can't even REALLY understand?

You do that all the time. We all do.

I think you are one of those who believe in evolution. Can you really understand it?

I just don't get it... I know I used to do it, but looking back, I feel like I 'believed' so strongly because I needed to do so... and that once that emotional need was gone, and I had found something more concrete to fill it, my 'faith' faded quickly. Is 'faith' in something bigger possibly something that we use to fill in the gaps until we figure out how to live our lives on our own? And maybe some people are never able to do that, or get caught up in believing in something out of convenience and never progress beyond it?

Perhaps. But I once felt satisfied as a nonbeliever. And then, one day, my child was conceived in my wife's womb and I suddenly realized that I was receiving a gift. She, that little beautiful child, was the catalyst for the profound change that happened in my life. I suddenly realized that God existed. From then on the satisfaction of a nonbeliever was paltry and small. I had to thank the Being who gave me my child(ren). And I have never ceased to do so. And may I never cease doing so.

I don't mean to insult anyone... this is just how I feel, and what's going on in my head. I'd like to have a discussion about it if anyone is game.

Lets do it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

For example when I saw someone healed in the hospital ER, when I get the doctors reports of wonderous things he does.

And what about all the people who are not healed and go on to die a suffering death? I suppose then it's just 'God works in mysterious ways', and 'we can't know the mind of God', huh?

[Credendovidis]

And what about all the people who are not healed and go on to die a suffering death? I suppose then it's just 'God works in mysterious ways', and 'we can't know the mind of God', huh?

Yeah... but you know : if it shows negative it is not caused by the deity but by humanity.
And when it shows positive it is not due to humanity but to the deity to be thankful for.
And that is precisely what this topic question is all about... ;)
Faith and belief are the religious alternatives for logical thinking, and are in stark contrast with checking claims against objective supported evidence...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

[tsila1777]

We do not have to prove anything because faith is to be believed not proven or it would not be faith so that is where your lengthy posts of us having to prove anything miss the point.
So none of what you say is any more correct/relevant than us saying prove prove it is not.

Amen!

I don't believe in science. I think it is a group of people who agree to agree that certain things are true and that other things are not. I believe they make up a bunch of stuff and write it down as facts, so that they can all remember what they agreed to. I also believe that most of 'history' is the same way. It was written by a lot of different people, over many years and most long after the 'event' occurred, so why should I believe it?


I still do not understand why those people who do not believe in God, try so hard to 'prove' He does not exist. As I said before, I do not believe in two-headed monsters... but I don't spend time or energy trying to prove they do not exist. I have no need to disprove it to someone else in order to support,validate,corroborate or defend my disbelief.




To address the original question: I believe God is God because I know that I know that I know that He is and He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. And woe to those who do not. He is not a crutch, He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't understand that either, but I believe it. Man is spirit, soul and body. Made in the Image of God.

If we had proof, it would not be faith and it is faith that brings salvation. Faith in the One who gave Himself for us, so that we would have a way to the Father and eternal life. Everyone will live forever, but only those who believe will inherit eternal life and live in the Presence of God forever.


Faith is hope in what you cannot yet see. For if you could see it, why would you still hope for it.

Blessed are those who believe without seeing, Jesus said to doubting Thomas.

Therefore, I am blessed.

[tsila1777]

Yeah .... but you know : if it shows negative it is not caused by the deity but by humanity.
And when it shows positive it is not due to humanity but to the deity to be thankful for.
And that is precisely what this topic question is all about .... ;)
Faith and belief are the religious alternatives for logical thinking, and are in stark contrast with checking claims against objective supported evidence ....

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

·

Faith and belief are the religious alternatives for logical thinking, and are in stark contrast with checking claims against objective supported evidence...

I'm sorry, I missed the thread that told of the objective supported evidence... evidence of what?

[tsila1777]

I know the feeling! Besides that : NOBODY can prove god/gods exist. That's the basis of religious BELIEF.
It's the weakness of religion, and the reason why theists can only make claims about their beliefs. And for a smaller group of theists the reason to be aggressive against other views that often can be supported by objective evidence for their views, and therefore becomes some kind of threat to those who's faith is tottering.


You got that spot on, Margo!

;)

·

Originally Posted by margog85
I can't just believe that a book which was written by people thousands of years ago was 'inspired by' a god that I can't prove exists...

History books were not 'inspired by' a god, but they were written by men over a number of years. do you believe history books? Was there really a 100 year war?

[lobrobster]

I don't believe in science.

This is just sad. You may as well say I don't believe in math. Or I don't believe in education. It's especially a shame, because you are obviously well read and educated.

I can only hope you don't have children and if you do, that they aren't as proud of their ignorance as you seem to be.

As I said before, I don't believe in two-headed monsters... but I don't spend time or energy trying to prove they don't exist.

Maybe you would if a group of people were trying to get two-headed monster intelligent design taught in schools. Or fought to stop stem cell research and other ways to help humanity because it goes against what the two-headed monster told a few people 2000 years ago, or if wars kept breaking out over disagreements of which land was promised to whom by the two-headed monster, or if some wanted to cut your head off because they believe in a 1-headed monster instead. Then just maybe, you'd want to stop the madness.

[Allheart]

I have to admit, when sitting in History class, I too, would think to myself, "How do you know this even happened, as the teacher was reading out of the text book."

But while in religion class, the gift of faith, embraced all I learned, all I heard and all I truly believe.

It's not to say I don't believe the words of history, or what took place, but I did question
How do we truly know.

I think that is because history is of course, so long ago, yet God's love, His prescence, His loving children, are still here and continue to surround us.

[lobrobster]

I have to admit, when sitting in History class, I too, would think to myself, "How do you know this even happened, as the teacher was reading out of the text book."

But while in religion class, the gift of faith, embraced all I learned, all I heard and all I truly believe.

It's not to say I don't believe the words of history, or what took place, but I did question
how do we truly know.

I think that is because history is of course, so long ago, yet God's love, His prescence, His loving children, are still here and continue to surround us.

Serious question Allheart,

I'm extremely curious how you were able to be skeptical about history, yet managed to cut off this skepticism in the face of the even more incredulous stories you learned from the bible (I'm not knocking you... I didn't question them myself for the first 19 years of my life).

It's been said that religious people are somehow able to compartmentalize their brains and do not apply the same logic to their religious beliefs as they would with any other subject. I find this extremely interesting. Like I said, I was the same way. In my case, I'm quite sure it's because I simply didn't think much about it, or when I did, I shut it out of my mind. As soon as I did start thinking about it (and I had to force myself to do so), I quickly became an unbeliever with regards to religion. I'm just curious what the case is with you.

[Allheart]

Hi lobroster,

And I most appreciate you asking and in such a nice way. Thank you.

I think because my faith (which actually comes from my heart and mind) was and is strengthened, everyday, where as history, just remained the same.

History didn't really have a overwhelming effect on my life, but God did and does. To this day, God is with me in my life and it is impossible for me to even question, because His love and guidance is a constant. Now there are times, many times my human self forgets about my faith, but He still is always with me.

I hope I am explaining this right :). It's just that faith is something that does exsist for me.
I can see it, feel it and understand it. I see it in other's works, in the way things turn out,
And it has always been a constant.

In school, there wasn't very much bible study. And I think I am glad about that. During church, of course, the readings are right from the bible, and then the homily which follows, explains the reading.

I was taught in such a loving environement at school, that all I heard and taught, was so very and is so very real to me.

I never for even a minute had any doubts. Nor do I. That's just something I share with you, not meaning to come off strong.

God's love, love of others, that I can understand and hold dear and true, bow and arrows,
Fighting over land, I somewhat understood, some of it made me very sad and glad to be alive during these times then way back then, but it didn't have an impact on my daily life, it didn't enhance or take away from my spiritual base.

Hope at least some of this makes sense.

[Credendovidis]

Faith and belief are the religious alternatives for logical thinking, and are in stark contrast with checking claims against objective supported evidence ....

You mean that logical thinking is completely exchanged for faith and belief ?
Yes, that seems for many here a correct assumption...

:D :D :D :D :D

History books were not 'inspired by a god, but were written by men over a number of years.

From the context and various posts here in this topic it was clear that this referred to the Bible. And the Bible was written by human beings that were claimed to be inspired by the deity referred to as the Christian God.

.

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