[tomder55]

If straight couples can get married without the blessing of the church and have the state support it then there is no logical reason that gay couples shouldn't be awarded the same courtesy.

Most places that recognize civil unions address this equatably in my view. But in California the courts bizarrey ruled that it wasn't equitable unless the word "marriage " was attached to the union . Flawed logic if you ask me unless there is different motivation.

[Sam DePecan]

fr-chuck
if they want there (spouse) to inherit proberty they could write it up in a will,or somerting.

Ha! Tell me about it. It would also help too if one could predict the death of the spouse; and be prepared to face a group of lawyers that want to punish you for breathing on their planet. In other words, take it from someone who has experienced it already. It is not so much to do with "Marriage" as it is to do with "Attorneys Having Field Days" with your "Trust Fund" etc. What I am saying is this . . . If you are one who belongs to a "SPC" or Special Political Class then you are "protected" by the Law or "Protected Under The Law" in the USA. If someone pops off his mouth to you and you protect yourself and back-hand him, then you might teach the worm-brain a lesson. For sure, they will think twice about wise-mouthing a tax-paying citizen of the United States of America. However, if that person who bathes daily in "special rights and privileges" because he can make a court-of-law believe that he is afflicted with the highly-curable, highly-treatable mental condition known as HOMOSEXUALISM, then you may find yourself spending 25-years-to-LIFE in a Federal Penitentiary for slapping the dog-crap out of a punk that sucks you-know-whats! It's the law! The tax-paying, normal people have to get used to it. In fact, there are even more and more new-laws on the horizon. It has nothing to do with hating or defending one's rights here in America. It has nothing to do with Bigotry, or any other political money-making word that one can look up in the Webster's Dictionary. It has a lot to do with lawyers running amuck!! Someone needs to do something soon or else we are all going to suffer forever and ever. The bottom-line answer just may be another American Revolution.

[Synnen]

Highly-treatable?

And sorry--but I'm of the feeling that backhanding ANYONE is a good way to have assault slapped on your record, whether they are a protected class.

But--whatever. You're entitled to your feelings.

And lawyers only run amok because people sue others rather than taking personal responsibility for their OWN actions. For example, a person wouldn't have to go to court for assault if he or she just didn't HIT someone else, making lawyers not have a case to defend and a case to prosecute. Or if people just understood that coffee is HOT and you shouldn't put it in your lap when you're driving, then restaurants wouldn't be sued for selling a hot beverage the way it's supposed to be, negating the need for some idiot to get money they never earned, negating the need for lawyers on the case.

See my point?

It's not LAWYERS running amok. It's Americans that think they have the RIGHT to do whatever the heck they want. It's Americans believing that they can sue someone else every time they're not happy with something.

The lawyers are just profiting from people who refuse to actually take responsibility for their OWN actions.

[Sam DePecan]

No, I don’t. You over-paraphrased my point to such a high-extent, that I couldn’t even recognize that you were referencing my previous post. Here in the United States of America, citizens used to be allowed to defend themselves. There is a socialistic group that wants to destroy the Constitution of the United States. They figure that their best achievement would be to get in “door number two” as it is the 2nd Amendment to the said Constitution. But what they really want is the biggy @ door number one. Just following the Civil War, we had all of our rights in tact; unlike today. Especially the two Decades just following the Civil War. Ironically, the 3rd Decade was known as the Gay 90s. I am not kidding. Gay was a real word then with real meaning; like bicycles built for two . . . Not BI-sexuals, but bicycles. One of the things that lawyers have accomplished is finding a way to get involved in our lives; when they are not needed. If you are a married person, and your spouse passes away then they jump all over like a hungry spider on a sick fly! They bleed you for not because you were married but because your spouse died. They say that it’s possible for them to have fun with your personal life because you are now some kind of “Estate” or some such. I know, it’s enough to make you want to barf. Now, they will not be able to do such a thing to a special privileged group of homosexualist nuptual partners. That is because special laws have already been set in place to provide special protection to those who actually have nothing but an affliction of a “highly-treatable & highly-curable” mental illness; known as “HOMOSEXUALISM” . . . Which is presently cured much the same way as ALCOHOLISM is today. I know what you are going to say, “Then the cured patient wasn’t really an alcoholic anyway.” . . . Or “Then the cured patient wasn’t really a practicing homosexual anyway.” . . .You can apply that rule of judgment to just about anything. I know a guy who has beaten prostate cancer TWICE! Are you going to tell me, “Then he never really was afflicted with cancer.????” We need to really keep policticians and attorneys out of hospitals and we want have to be concerned about ruining the definition of MARRIAGE or hi-jacking any other ligitimate words in the dictionary.

[Sonador101]

Sam depecan
I am sorry you have been mistreated by our government.

[Synnen]

See... this is where we differ.

I don't see homosexualism as a disease any more than I see people who are short as having a disease,or people who have blue eyes. I think it's part of who they ARE, not something that needs to be "cured".

Frankly, your attitude about that appalls me--Hitler thought that being a Jew was something that needed to be either "cured" or eradicated. See the parallel here?

As far as lawyers go--yup, you need them to decipher the law and to help you make sure you're NOT going to get screwed by the government. I agree that the federal government has way too much power--but I feel that the Christian right has way too much power too, and that's as specialized and protected a group as any minority--except they're in the MAJORITY and trying to force their values on those of us who are NOT Christian.

I don't think that asking for tolerance and equality is too much from the homosexual community. I mean--didn't blacks have to go through this same sort of mess in the 60s? Are you going to tell me that being BLACK makes you not as entitled to getting married or bearing arms or having a vote? Again, it comes back to the fact that YOU see it as a disease, and I see it as genetic makeup. Yes, they could probably be "cured" if they just never had sex again--but for anyone that expects THAT to be a solution, I hope you are cursed with impotency so that you can never have sex again, either.

[Sam DePecan]

Actually, where we differ is in your totally, totally evading the “ism” affliction that I referred to. You replaced THAT with some kind of 3rd Reich ideology of racial cleansing or some such. Obviously, you are what one might call being “normal phobic”. So be it. [Answer this: Would you be guilty of lying if you were hiding Jews in your closet when the Nazis buzzed your door and asked you . . . Thus, you denied??? Remember now, the topic here is “Are you really a truthful person?. . . NOT that you want to gas a race of people.] BTW, some short people do have a more serious problem related to the Thyroid Gland. The same may be stated about those who are over 7-feet tall, and still growing. Medical Science has to be extremely cautious about how they interfere; remember how they screwed up fertility a few years back; and now some women today are NOT giving birth to children, but instead are dropping litters of human animals?? [I guess you are going to accuse me of what now, drowning puppies when they haven’t even opened their eyes yet?] I was cursed @ the hospital (if you want to call it that) because we were pregnant 3-times in 4-years, and my wife was a workaholic. [Workaholics can be cured also. She passed away from Heart Disease prior to receiving her first treatment.] Thus, that is why I had my vasectomy; because she wanted to work out of maternity some of her life, and not just have babies. Would it have made you happy to know that I wasn’t castrated? That for sure, would cure Michael Jackson of his lovey-dovey problems that he has with Cub Scouts [NOT Brownies!!] I am not about to tell you that being black is going to keep you from marrying anyone. I’m white and married again . . . To another lovely Filipina. Obviously she is not black but she’s not white either. Both of my Grandfathers were “Squawmen” and my maternal grandmother was actually very, very much French Creole and oh-boy! Did she ever look like it too!! So, we have established the fact that your imagination which lead you to the gassing of the Jews and Black Weddings, etc. seems to be your apparent just-looking-at-words, but not reading thoughts. Yes, workaholics can be cured; alcoholics can be cured; and there are several homosexuals who have admitted that they have been treated and cured as well. It’s just that there is no political money in the cure. If you ask Je$$i Jack$on though, there is a lot of $,$$$,$$$,$$$.oo to be had out there in the Homo$exual Coalition. You can politicize “anything” … I have a paper clip that would love to marry my stapler. Why can’t they? Would you dare deny my paper clip and my stapler their right to their conjugal, nuptial freedom? How dare you! You said so yourself, it’s part of who they are! You paper bigot!!!

[Fr_Chuck]

I guess I will have to go some ( some) with Sam, being black is not a choice, and I still believe as many do that life style is a choice or if not it is caused by some bio make up. We do not merely say that well a chlld molester is just born that way, so he has that right to be that way, no we make laws against it and keep it under control, and yes we try to treat them and change them.
In the early days, being homosexual was considered by the medical community as something that could be treated and there was attempts at curing the problem. It was only after they started gaining political power and became a somewhat protected class that this idea and teaching changed.

Merely being accepted or being forced down our throats by the courts who do not go by the wishes of the people does not make it right, it only makes it legal. And to many this being forced upon us, is causing more and more resentment, which will only harbor more ill will.

[Synnen]

/shrug

It all comes back to "who are they hurting by asking their love to have the same legal rights as anyone else's love?" to me.

I don't care WHAT people do as long as it is not hurting anyone else. Want to eat staples all day? GREAT!

And as far as your paperclip marrying your stapler (or whatever the hell stupid argument you put forth there)--if they could express to me without a human translator that that's what they want--who would it hurt? Sure! Let them marry! This is why the argument that people marrying pets is next would be shot down too--a pet couldn't express its preference. And we have laws to protect children from gay OR "straight" marriage.

But whatever. You're going to change my mind and make me believe that you're not just intolerant of other's choices, and I'm not going to change your mind that you believe that I'm an overly tolerant person with poor morals.

[0rphan]

Such a lot of bitterness and anger here, and not without do cause in some cases.

This will always be an argument within society and it's various religious beliefs,sadly I don't think it will ever reach an agreeable conclusion.

I personally have no problem with it having worked with people who prefer their own sex as a partner, that's not to say that if I see any intimate behaviour, it does make me feel really uncomfortable, however I do believe that there are those that have been born into this world with a medical imbalance, maybe something has been wrong with the pregnancy or perhaps the mother was carrying some sort of inherited gene etc. etc..
Which allows the new born, to be born into the wrong body... a girl as a boy or vic versa
Something to do with the makeup and development with in the womb.

In this instant it is a medical condition that the person cannot help, just like any other unfortunate abnomality, in later life some people who recognise this, have their body changed to the person that they new they always were,others accept who they are hoping that society will do the same.

It does say one man to one woman in the bible so as far as religion goes it is never going to be right, but we are all the human race despite our differences, whether it be gay, lesbion, disabled by one thing or another, black white , yellow etc.etc... if all our imperfections were to be taken from us,we ,d all still be the same underneath.

If one human being cares deeply for another, no matter what their gender is that so wrong, don't you think there is enough hurt in this world, who are we to throw stones, we are not the judge or the jury and should live and let live as long as it does not harm anyone else I cannot see a problem.

Everyone should get on with their own life and mind their own businness

[Sam DePecan]

Aha! We finally have everyone touching on the topic here . . . It is not so great that you are the same sex couple or whatever you are . . . Even a Male Paper Clip and a Female Stapler. What is so significant here though is "Showing Respect To MARRIAGE; and all of those married couples (legally; of course) who have preceded us." . . . Let's don't be such a great policially in-love group that we can't even show respect for everyone else in this world who does not do those things that we might do with our buddies; in the bedroom, the closet or on the back of a flat bed truck where we are throwing off packages of condoms!!! Let's show some respect for the innocent, and their traditional institution of MARRIAGE! After all, it's all about MARRIAGE! MARRIAGE! MARRIAGE! . . . What is MARRIAGE??? That's it. It's THAT simple!!! MARRIAGE!!! Let's keep our thwarted politics out of the lives of the innocent. The innocent are never protected enough in this "new confused culture" of today as it is.

[Wondergirl]

fr-chuck
if they want there (spouse) to inherit proberty they could write it up in a will,or somerting.

Wills are contested by family members, and a gay partner very possibly will lose in court.

I go with FrChuck. Marriage is a religious institution between a man and a woman. The word "marriage" is wildly tossed around, mostly and unfortunately because it is that ceremony that bestows on couples both spiritual and legal advantages. I say separate the religious rite from the legal. It would be so easy with separation of church and state.

I really believe that all gays want is a civil union. A civil union guarantees them legal rights in inheritance, health care, privacy issues, financial situations. If gays also want the religious blessing, there are churches and pastors sympathetic to the gay community and who will bless a gay union in a religious ceremony (but no legal rights would be conveyed).

[Sam DePecan]

"I really believe that all gays want is a civil union. A civil union guarantees them legal rights in inheritance, health care, privacy issues, financial situations." Then let's call it "Choogalagga" or something. But let's NOT call it MARRIAGE. However, that is NOT what they want. They want to ruin the meaning of the word; thus, the word, itself. THAT is exactly what they want. They are one of the most powerful political groups ever in our glorious history. They know that eventually they will be able to get everything that they ask for. What are they going to ask for next? Don't think that the political scabs are not just sitting back licking their chops right now for all the wealth in power that awates them. There is more money in homosexual politics than Mobile/Exxon can pump out of the ground! . . . Don't think it's not!! Ha! The things that they are claiming that they are right now NOT entitled to dates back to whenever . . . Who cares??? . . . But not now. They get exactly what they want as a couple of whatever they want to choose next as a handle. In fact, I would hate to be the governing body that would dare go against them as what they are right now. I mean, would you want to face Je$$ie Jack$on in a Court-of-Law? You gotta be kidding . . . :eek:

[Wondergirl]

"I really believe that all gays want is a civil union. A civil union guarantees them legal rights in inheritance, health care, privacy issues, financial situations." Then let's call it "Choogalagga" or something. But let's NOT call it MARRIAGE. However, that is NOT what they want. They want to ruin the meaning of the word; thus, the word, itself. THAT is exactly what they want. They are one of the most powerful political groups ever in our glorious history. They know that eventually they will be able to get everything that they ask for. What are they going to ask for next? Don't think that the political scabs are not just sitting back licking their chops right now for all the wealth in power that awates them. There is more money in homosexual politics than Mobile/Exxon can pump out of the ground! . . . Don't think it's not!! Ha! The things that they are claiming that they are right now NOT entitled to dates back to whenever . . . Who cares??? . . . But not now. They get exactly what they want as a couple of whatever they want to choose next as a handle. In fact, I would hate to be the governing body that would dare go against them as what they are right now. I mean, would you want to face Je$$ie Jack$on in a Court-of-Law? You gotta be kidding . . . :eek:

I'm very sorry for your loss.

Gays want marriage only because it is tied up with civil/legal rights through the marriage contract. If the two were separated, and gays were able to get civil rights, they would. A number of companies and municipalities have begun to extend some version of civil rights (health care especially) to gay couples. The civil/legal offering would solve the problem and untangle the confusion over what marriage is.

[ordinaryguy]

Damn, Sam, you seem to be a really angry man. For the sake of those near you, I hope it's just a cyber-persona.

[Synnen]

Seriously... are you THAT threatened by the use of a WORD?

Why not call church marriages "Religious marriage" and court marriages "civil marriages".

I mean, it works in the adoption community to call one set of parents "birth parents" and one set "adoptive parents" with BOTH sets being able to have some claim to being the "real" parents.

I'm married, by the way. Of course, the MAIN reason I got married was because of the legal stuff associated with it---I was blocked from my "boyfriend's" side during an emergency room visit, and unable to get any information from doctors and nurses. Otherwise, we would have been perfectly happy to just live together for the rest of our lives. I love him, but I don't need a church's blessing on the love to be happy. I DO, however, need reassurance that the state, hospitals, doctors, nurses, credit agencies, insurance companies, etc, will be willing to deal with ME regarding my husband's affairs if he were ever incapacitated.

If it's JUST a word, what difference does it make WHO uses it? If you were THAT upset about it, you'd be upset by the people in TX in their bigamist community using the word "marriage" for their relationships too--because it's one man, one woman. If you were THAT upset by it, you'd be JUST as upset about common-law marriages.

But you're NOT.

You're only upset because you frown on homosexuality THAT much that you don't want them to have the same "rights" you do for their relationships.

When I hear the same people who are against gay marriages protesting ANY common-law marriage, or protesting that communities that have multiple partners using the word marriage for something that by definition ISN'T, well--then I'll take them a bit more seriously. But--they don't. They just don't want the word "Marriage" sullied by a group of people they don't approve of in any way.

I'm with Allheart on this--You are NOT God. YOU can't speak for Him. How about just letting people live and let live? How is someone calling their union "marriage" REALLY threatening to you, when the SPIRIT of the word means "two people who love each other and want to reflect that love to the world"? By using the word "marriage", they are using a socially defined word that expresses what they mean to each other.

I'd be okay with people demanding that gays use a different word than marriage if the straights were willing to use a completely different word as well. Hell, I'd call my marriage "oomgabonga' if that meant that people would be able to have equal rights in this country regardless of sexual orientation.

[Sam DePecan]

"two people who love each other and want to reflect that love to the world"? Two people is the problem. A young strapping lad and his good-looking aunt (sister of his mother) could also argue for the same principles of marriage. That's just it. As long as we have not had any probs in the past; and as long as the word is so-well-defined now; please . . . Let's don't let some politically-sexual outfit or some sexually-political outfit ruin it for us now; nor in the future for our future generations. It wouldn't be fair to them.

[Synnen]

As long as they understand the dangers if they decide to have a child--and they're both adults--what exactly is the problem?

Prior to the 1960s, there were "no problems in the past" with segregating blacks--why did THEY "ruin it" for future generations? Same with female sexuality--I mean, woman's place was to get married, stay at home, have kids and raise them, get dinner on the table, and keep the house clean! Why did some radical women who were just not happy with what had "not had problems in the past" have to go and want equality in the workplace, and the right to birth control, and the double-standard of sex before marriage dropped, and the stigma removed from never marrying, and the right to determine their OWN lives without a husband telling them what to do--I mean, jeez--women being the caretakers, cooks, cleaners, mothers, and property of their husbands had worked for CENTURIES! And look--they went and ruined it for future generations by wanting to be equal to men in every way. I mean, how DARE they?

[Wondergirl]

"two people who love each other and want to reflect that love to the world"? Two people is the problem. A young strapping lad and his good-looking aunt (sister of his mother) could also argue for the same principles of marriage.

I think that marriage would be illegal in most US states, for reasons that are very different from a gay relationship.

[0rphan]

Sam I am so sorry for your loss, however I do think you have a deep seated problem that is eating you up inside.

I have never read such vicious words coming from one mouth.
Ok,yes you have a real problem with this issue, lots of people do but yours is definitely over the top... in a big way.

You've made it loud and clear to the whole world... I would think by now.Why having had your say can't you leave it be!

You talk about gays and lesbians like they are some kind of disease, they are part of the human race as we all are and should be treated like it, not shund like a leper.

The problem today is that everyone talks about bedroom matters so openly, that wouldn't have happened years ago, it's private between two people,in the bedroom is where it should stay.

Believe it or not the gays and lesbians that I have worked with have been extremely nice people I wasn't even aware of their genda... it's none of my business, it's people who disagree that cause all the problems, name calling and alike totally uneccessary and very spiteful.

In my experience they never mention marriage only the fact of one day they would like to make some kind of commitment to each other , just to show their love and sincerity, they don't care what kind of ceremony it is, just so long as they say what ever in front of family and friends, what's so wrong in that...

You cannot rule anyone else's life or expect them to obey your rules, what you believe is fine for you but not necessarily for some one else, I'm sure there are those who disagree with things that you do in your life or maybe in my life... ok tough , it 's our choice, which is how it should be, if you don't like it turn and walk away live your life and leave them to do the same