 |
Read the link below and tell me how the Catholic church could ever find this okay? WHY do they insist on protecting the priest. Isn't there a higher calling than protecting the reputation of the church? Like protecting children? The rationale or excusing of this behavior just blows my mind. Your thoughts?
Catholic Church shamed by Irish abuse report
The Catholic Church has always been shrouded in a cloak of secrecy in an effort to keep up appearances.
Even the Pope has spoken publicly about this cover up and the disastrous effects of it.
It has gone on for ages and despite public outcry these men are somehow free of any prosecution,it still continues.
Maybe that is why the church is bankrupt,paying off these people!
I share your disgust and dismay!
I went to Catholic school for 9 years. I was an alter boy for 5 of those years. The priest would always say you don't just become a priest it is a calling. Don't you think if it was a calling, pedophiles wouldn't get that call. Just a note a priest never did anything to me. One time I got slapped then I punched him and that was the last time I ever stepped into a church unless I was forced to like weddings funerals baptisms etc...
I was raised Catholic as well,strict Catholic and I was never sexually abused but the nuns had no regret about giving your knuckles a whack with a ruler.I always wondered at the peace and love concept when they were doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
Basically there is no defense for the appalling behavior, cover ups, and lack of accountability. Still, there are catholic want to bees. How is that? What am I missing? Who would want to support such a group? Not to say there aren't some perfectly fine people out there who happen to be catholic. I just don't think I could call myself that given the back room antics within this church.
I love this. That will teach them to put a hand on you! Lol:DQuote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
Every year they run a story about the unsloved murder but everyone knows who did it.
His girlfriend changed the subject real fast. But ever since then we really don't speak that much anymore. My wife doesn't care she never really had a close relationship with her father. I think she said it to really close the door on him. I thought it was messed up but I know what he put her through all her life and it wasn't good.
Sadly bad things happen, but for some reason it is the Catholic churches that get national attention, The list of Baptist leaders, or scout leaders or many others never make the national news. And of course often the catholic abuses go back decades not really current issues.
While not acceptable, considering the larger numbers of Catholic clergy compared to any other religion there will be more of course.
Catholic Bashing. Well Just have to say that anything that has happened. Is not called for. Is not right and there should be no secrecy. At the same time I am A Roman Catholic. I have never experienced any of these things within the catholic church. I do not condone the behaviour of some. That is right, Some. NOT EVERYBODY LINKED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, NOT EVERY PRIEST IS KNOWN TO BEHAVE THIS WAY. People here are pretty much painting the whole catholic church and its members in a bad light. Why?
As FrChuck has mentioned. There is a lot of abuse that goes on in other organizations and churches as well. Do you condemn them as a group?
I am Roman catholic and proud to say that I am. My beliefs are strong, does not mean I agree with the things that has happened in the past, or that I agree with everything the church has to say but it is my home and I was brought up within the Catholic church.
Joe
I would condemn the actions of any person or organization that engaged in abuse. How would so much of this go on in an organization (ANY organization) without someone in authority being aware? That means that either the person in authority did not properly discharge his duty or endorsed the actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
The other concern that I have is that once those who raise the concern are called names like "Catholic Bashers" it tends to drive those who might otherwise raise the alarm underground, and I'd rather see the alarm sounded when abuse like this occurs in ANY organization to protect the children. Isn't that what's important?
Why do you think catholics get national attention while other faiths or organizations don't? We just want to pick on catholics?? Why single them out? What would be the point? You are catholic. Surely you have a theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
WHOA TJ! We agree on something. Who would have thunk it?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
It had to happen eventually ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
We differ here. I would be ashamed to claim this title.Quote:
Quote:
That is wonderful and I am glad for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
Quote:
I never said everyone was known to behave this way. I even mentioned that in my earlier post. I just wondered why anyone would want to be associated with of a group that so grossly abused their power and then basically condoned it by letting it slide.Quote:
I do not condone the behaviour of some. That is right, Some. NOT EVERYBODY LINKED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, NOT EVERY PRIEST IS KNOWN TO BEHAVE THIS WAY.
No one has to paint it. It does have a bad light and a tragic history. IF the catholic church was serious about not condoning bad behavior, they would tirelessly investigate these crimes and see that restitution was made for every victim. That should be first and foremost in their agenda.Quote:
Quote:
People here are pretty much painting the whole catholic church and its members in a bad light. Why?
[Quote:
Of course not, and I don't join their group, support it with my money, or spout their merits either.Quote:
As FrChuck has mentioned. There is a lot of abuse that goes on in other organizations and churches as well. Do you condemn them as a group?
Quote:
QUOTE]I am Roman catholic and proud to say that I am.
[/QUOTE]Quote:
JoeQuote:
My beliefs are strong, does not mean I agree with the things that has happened in the past, or that I agree with everything the church has to say but it is my home and I was brought up within the Catholic church.
I could see how you could take the good lessons that you have learned and incorporate them in your life. I could see how you could have a sentimental attachment since you were brought up in this church. What I don't understand is how any of the crimes committed, hidden, ducked and permitted are swept under the rug like "sh$t happens" and then go about business as usual. I couldn't be a participate in letting that happen and that is what church members are really doing.
So your accusing me of being part of the mess. Your accusing me of just participating and letting it happen. That is not what church members are doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
First of all, You are basically telling me that I should be ashamed for being a Roman Catholic. Why should I be ashamed of my church? Why should I be ashamed of being a roman catholic.
What because Abuse has happened in the past. Abuse happens every where but you are lumping the whole organization world wide in one big clump of sh*t which is not fair to me or other catholic members that are outstanding citizens and church members.
You said, I am letting it happen. How exactly am I letting it happen. When It is not even happening in any of the Catholic churches I have been involved in. I have been involved in more then a few.
I told you that I do not codone it, and I do not believe that people involved in these abuses should be protected. That is what the law is for is to protect and also convict. Stop convicting the church as a whole, stop convicting all its members which includes me and lets get down to who really is not doing their jobs.
The government, the laws of the lands. You act as if the abuse is still happening today. I have not seen any of it. Those people that have been involved should be punished. Well, Lets see, is it not the law of the land. That will see to these people being convicted or not.
You have an hatred towards and organization as a whole. Your directing your anger in the wrong direction as far as I am concerned.
Joe
[You did not "let" it happen. It's just that you and your church are not doing anything about it.Quote:
QUOTE=Jesushelper76;1749689]So your accusing me of being part of the mess. Your accusing me of just participating and letting it happen. That is not what church members are doing.
Because of the cover up that has gone on within your church. I don't know why congregations as a whole are not all over this, and won't stop until justice is served. It is like the wife of a man that sexually or physically abuses their child, and the wife keeps secret about it. She did not do the actual abuse, but she did not do anything about it either.Quote:
First of all, You are basically telling me that I should be ashamed for being a Roman Catholic. Why should I be ashamed of my church? Why should I be ashamed of being a roman catholic.
What because Abuse has happened in the past. Abuse happens every where but you are lumping the whole organization world wide in one big clump of sh*t which is not fair to me or other catholic members that are outstanding citizens and church members.
You are missing the point. I never said everyone was guilty of these acts. I never said all churches had this going on. That is not the "lump" I'm making. The lump is that your denomination, the catholic church, as a whole has allowed these priest and other leaders to get away with what they have done. I'm not an expert on the rankings of church officials, but I don't understand how there is not an out cry from the congregations everywhere, to get to the bottom of this. Yank these leaders out and anyone who aided in their cover up and see that they are held accountable for acts they performed while representing your church. You just go on like this hasn't happened over and over again. Possibly still happening and still being covered.Quote:
You said, I am letting it happen. How exactly am I letting it happen. When It is not even happening in any of the Catholic churches I have been involved in. I have been involved in more then a few.
Quote:
Like the supposed whistle blowers of the church that are not blowing their whistle but just transferring the guilty to another location or position?Quote:
Quote:
Stop convicting the church as a whole, stop convicting all its members which includes me and lets get down to who really is not doing their jobs.
It makes it very difficult to convict when the church is protecting them. I'm sure they do what they can with the cooperation they are given.Quote:
The government, the laws of the lands. You act as if the abuse is still happening today. I have not seen any of it. Those people that have been involved should be punished. Well, Lets see, is it not the law of the land. That will see to these people being convicted or not.
[/QUOTE]Quote:
You have an hatred towards and organization as a whole. Your directing your anger in the wrong direction as far as I am concerned.
Joe
You mean I have A hatred towards THE organization as a whole? I wouldn't call it a hatred. It is more like a sense of indignation that cover ups have not been challenged by members of the organization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Southern Baptists join Catholics: Move pedophile preachers from church to church, deny everything
Southern Baptists join Catholics: Move pedophile preachers from church to church, deny everything
More letters urging leniency for clergy pedophile
Stop Baptist Predators: More letters urging leniency for clergy pedophile
Associated Baptist Press - Baptist churches more vulnerable to clergy sex abuse, experts say
Do you think that this is exclusively a ‘Catholic Problem’ or is this how you express your ‘hate Catholic’ attitude?
Just as bad. I don't attend a southern baptist church but if I did, I would be asking what are we going to do to get to the bottom of this. We can't call ourselves christians and be christ like if we allow something like this go unpunished under our watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Not sure what your point was with posting this. Was it to say, "hey, other churches are doing it too". Well other churches should be just as ashamed if they don't hold their leaders accountable.
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I don't remember anyone saying that is was solely a Catholic problem, but just as when we were all kids, the argument that "Jimmy did it - why can't I?" didn't fly, it still does not fly especially for such an important issue as child abuse. Pointing fingers at someone else does not lessen the problem that we are discussing, it merely appears to be a strategy of distraction rather than acknowledging and dealing with the issue.
Thank you for providing these links. I was reading them but had to stop as it was just too disgusting to read on. Doesn't matter if they are catholics, baptists, boy scout leaders, teachers, or who ever. What matters is that any organization take the responsibility to make sure their house is clean , and when they discover it is not, don't stand for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The point is that you and those who have supported you here are bigoted hypocrites.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
The shame is that you would use the sufferings of others as weapons to attack the Catholic Church.
I don't think it appropriate to attack those who were subject to abuse, or gthose concerned about abuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
What I have seen on here is an attack on the behaviour, which would be wrong no matter who did it. You, on the other hand, tried to deflect the issue away from the topic at hand, which is a current major news item. If next week a different church is involved, then the focus will appropriately be there.Quote:
The shame is that you would use the sufferings of others as weapons to attack the Catholic Church.
I think I pointed out that it didn't matter if you were catholic, baptist or whatever else, any abuse that is overlooked by it's members is a bad thing. Why so defensive about the catholic church? Does it not have a defense?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Still with you TJ:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Joe would you agree that touching kids is possible the worst crime out there? If it was a school district, The Police, or a Corporation that hid molesting kids for years they would get the same abuse. But the church gets it the worse because they are supposed to be what's good with the world. They represent love, compassion, charity etc...
Whenever the first time a priest was accused of touching a child they should have done the right thing and turn him in right then and there. But they didn't they choose to hide it over and over and over again. And that is the problem. I'm sorry but there is no way I would support any organization that harbors pedophiles regardless if it were The police, The Philadelphia Phillies, my own family or anyone.
So please Joe how does that make me a bigoted hypocrite?
The hypocrisy is in pretention of some moral authority or a corporately held virtuous character it doesn't really possess so that it can do harm to another, i.e. the Catholic Church. The bigotry is in the intolerance of the Roman Church, not the harm or the evil done to the kids. The evil done to the kids seems secondary in this discussion because it focuses on the Catholic Church when in fact many non-Catholic Churches have far worse problems. Why does this thread focus exclusively on the “Catholic Problem” and not on the “abuse problem – without reference to religion”; unless of course the target is the Catholic Church and not a resolution of the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches | csmonitor.com
StopBaptistPredators.org
Protestant Clergy Abuse Equals or Exceeds Catholic Clergy Abuse Because It Matters ~ Freedom in Christianity
Sexual abuse in the church: not just a “Catholic problem” | Think Christian
Sexual Abuses Issues in the Church; Raising the Bar | Today's Children's Ministry
Essays - Gary Schoener
So, in my opinion there's no love or compassion being expressed or discussed in this thread, Spitvenom. The underlying topic, or the coded message, is the bigoted view of the Catholic Church. It seems that the victims of these evil crimes are being used as venomous ammunition. There's no attempt at finding a solution.
Quote:
What makes you think that the name of the group protecting pedifiles matters to us? We have already stated twice that whether it's baptist, teachers, even family members, it is all equally bad and should not be tolerated. Is there some reason that I don't know of that would make us WANT to do harm to the church?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Why would people be intolerant of the church? What's there not to like? Give me a reason for people to be intolerant of the church. Except for protecting pedifiles, is there another reason? You keep skimming over the evil done and excused under it's roof.Quote:
The bigotry is in the intolerance of the Roman Church, not the harm or the evil done to the kids.
Only you are making it secondary. Your wrath is more about your church being picked on when it should focus on your church leaders.Quote:
The evil done to the kids seems secondary
[And your point is what? It makes it less of a travisty? This is what I mean when I say you are more concerned with protecting the church than the child.Quote:
QUOTE]in this discussion because it focuses on the Catholic Church when in fact many non-Catholic Churches have far worse problems.
Quote:
Why does this thread focus exclusively on the “Catholic Problem” and not on the “abuse problem – without reference to religion”; unless of course the target is the Catholic Church and not a resolution of the problem?
The reason the thread started with "Catholic Problem" and not abuse in general is because someone sent me the link for a story concerning catholic abuse. It left me scratching my head and wondering how such a thing could happen and not be prosecuted. And if something bad like that went down within a group I supported, I certainly would not support it any longer. Much less defend as you seem to be doing.
The fact that other faiths or organizations in general also have these issues came up during this thread and were "frowned upon" equally. I'll never argue with you that other churches don't have similar situations. Again, doesn't matter who is doing it, what matters is that it is done, and by lack of proper action, condoned.
[Quote:
url=http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html]Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches | csmonitor.com[/url]
StopBaptistPredators.org
Protestant Clergy Abuse Equals or Exceeds Catholic Clergy Abuse Because It Matters ~ Freedom in Christianity
Sexual abuse in the church: not just a “Catholic problem” | Think Christian
Sexual Abuses Issues in the Church; Raising the Bar | Today's Children's Ministry
Essays - Gary Schoener
I think you flatter yourself to think it's all about being catholic. It's about being wrong.Quote:
So, in my opinion there's no love or compass being expressed or discussed in this thread, Spitvenom. The underlying topic, or the coded message, is the bigoted view of the Catholic Church.
[/QUOTE]Quote:
It seems that the victims of these evil crimes are being used as venomous ammunition. There's no attempt at finding a solution.
You support the organization that produced these victims. The resolution comes with bringing the wrong do-ers out into the light of day and making examples of them so that maybe, the next priest, cardinal, whatever might think twice.
What exactly are members of individual churches to do if they do not know anything is going on, or there is not any experience like that in most churches?
If the abuse happened then the law is there to charge them. Simple as that.
Do not paint the whole membership of church as codoning it. Never said that, yet in your own words you have said as members of catholic church we should all be ashamed for calling Catholic Church our home. Even though none of this is happening in our churches or with our priests or many of us do not even know lots of this is going on, but your making it sound like it is a world wide problem. That every member is responsible for letting it happen.
It is of course not true and as I said before, start putting your anger, out rage and what ever else your feeling towards the right people.
I understand what you are saying Joe.I still believe my church is the Catholic Church and what I find so very appalling is the sweeping under the rug behavior that has continued to not address this problem in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
If a priest commits an offense of abuse,he should not be sent to some out of the way tiny church,he should be excommunicated.
I think by the very fact that Pope Benedict has addressed this issue publicly is a good beginning.He has vowed toHere is a link to the brief article.Quote:
exclude pedophiles from the sacred ministry,
Pope Expresses Deep Shame Over Clergy Sex Abuse Scandal
So Changes are happening, and The Pope is even bringing things out in the open.
I agree Artlady with you a 100 percent. If somebody is found guilty of these abuses. Then they need to face up to the law, and nothing should be swept under the rug or hidden. The priest that orr others that are guilty should never have a role as priest again, or shuffled off anyway where else.
Thank you for the link by the way.
One of the concerns that I have and I have seen expressed by others, is that this specific situation was so widespread - not just one isolated incident, but many people, many schools over many years. It is hard to believe that someone, somewhere who was not involved did not have some knowledge of what was happening, and it is hard to imagine that no one in any authority of authority caught wind of it. At what level there may have been negligence or acceptance, we do not know, but it strains believability to suggest that this could be so widespread without someone somewhere having known about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
WHY? Because they cover it up because they do not want the problem dealt with in the public eye and it still continues. So WHY? Is because in effect they appear to condone it by covering it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
I agree that it is most likely pediophiles that decided they could 'hide' behind the name of religion therefore wrongfully giving the Catholic name a bad reputation but the Church needs to find a way to STOP it. Whether it is doing better background checks, screening, psych evaluations or whatever they need to figure out an effective way to stop it.
Whether it is the Catholic Church or any other course of power representing the name of Jesus. How shameful it is that they abuse also, what it means to be fruitful (Tts 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. )
In a practical term, fruit represent good works, a thought, attitude, or action of ours that God values because it glorifies HIM.
Tts 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Jesus said: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit. Jesus also said we are the branches of HIM who is the Vine. So branches that do not bear fruit are not of Christ.
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Gal 5:22)
None of what has been shown in abuse, assaults, and humiliation can be call fruit that glorifies God. These men and woman that use abuse, assaults, and humiliation come from wickedness, and evil works.
God does promise to cloth HIS enemies in shame.
Are these really cases of pedophilia (PEE dough fill ee ah), or is something else going on?
(Btw, PEED = child, PED = foot)
What age range of children are attractive to pedophiles?
If it sexual abuse of a child, then the answer is a clear YES, it is pedophilia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
How old is the child? (she asked again)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
------------------------------------------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
As well as specific allegations or suspicions about 84 priests, the Dublin archdiocese says accusations have been made against another 61 who worked there in recent decades.
Some 400 victims of abuse have already been identified.
Among the likely questions facing the archdiocese's investigation will be whether priests were moved from parish to parish to disguise their abuse, as occurred in the Church elsewhere in the world.
The most notorious abuse has occurred in children's homes and orphanages run by priests and nuns.
(Source: BBC NEWS | Europe | Catholics detail Irish sex abuses)
---------------------------------------------------
That article above is over a year old and the number of identified victims has risen dramatically.
---------------------------------------------------
As far back as the 1940s, school inspectors reported broken bones and malnourished children but no action was taken.
(source: BBC NEWS | Europe | Abuse 'Ireland's darkest chapter')
--------------------------------------------------
Children's homes and orphanages are not normally used for those 18 and over. Past that, the age should not matter. Sexual abuse of children is abhorrent no matter what the age of the child,
Here is the summary of the findings of the investigation if you want to know more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...5_09_abuse.pdf
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:57 PM. |