Ask Me Help Desk

Ask Me Help Desk (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum.php)
-   Religious Discussions (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=485)
-   -   Why is there belief in purgatory? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=334160)

  • Mar 26, 2009, 08:59 AM
    Wondergirl
    Why is there belief in purgatory?
    Christ died for our sins -- ALL of our sins past, present, and future here on earth. Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?
  • Mar 26, 2009, 09:05 AM
    RickJ

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

    The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.



    Two Judgments


    When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

    Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).



    Money, Money, Money


    One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don't add up.

    When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar's offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

    But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.



    A Catholic "Invention"?


    Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

    But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

    Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers' Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)



    Why No Protests?


    Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

    A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine's truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

    They don't exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

    It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

    Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.



    "Purgatory Not in Scripture"


    Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren't in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn't use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

    Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one's sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man's work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man's work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can't refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can't be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

    Then, of course, there is the Bible's approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

    Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner's Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.



    Why Go To Purgatory?


    Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that's not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

    Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart's magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete.. . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

    It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ's applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.



    No Contradiction


    The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ's redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn't. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ's atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).



    Nothing Unclean


    Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

    Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn't fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

    Source: Purgatory
  • Mar 26, 2009, 09:52 AM
    450donn

    WG,
    To answer your question is sort of hard, since the word "purgatory" is not used in the bible. But the word "hell" is used six times in my reference book. So based on that, there is no scriptural basis for a place called purgatory that I can find.
  • Mar 26, 2009, 09:54 AM
    RickJ

    The "trinity" is not in the Bible either, but most Christians believe in it :)
  • Mar 26, 2009, 12:24 PM
    450donn

    On the contrary, there is!
    Mt28;19 2Cor13:14
    Site me any place in the scriptures where purgatory is specifically mentioned? Like I said before there is NONE in my Bible. According to my American dictionary, "Roman Catholic Theology,condition or place of purification after death from venial sins."
    So this is a theology trumped up by the Roman Catholic Church to make people still living feel good about their dead loved ones that were not saved and therefore doomed to everlasting damnation in the lake of fire as foretold in Rev 20.
  • Mar 26, 2009, 12:39 PM
    RickJ

    ??

    I'm not following you.

    I grant that the word "Purgatory" is not in the Bible.
    "Trinity" is not in the Bible either.

    So what's your point?

    The question was why Catholic Christians believe what they do about Purgatory.

    I gave reference to why.

    If someone asked why we Christians believe in the "Trinity", I could help with that too.

    ... it is true that NEITHER term is in the Bible. But that's OK, right?
  • Mar 26, 2009, 01:09 PM
    450donn

    And again my answer to WG's question is that there is no scriptural basis for the teaching of purgatory. The secular dictionary I quoted from even mentions that it is a Roman Catholic belief. So I will give you that your answer is useful for a Roman Catholic to understand the principals of this teaching. But there is still no scriptural basis for it, is there?
  • Mar 26, 2009, 01:13 PM
    RickJ

    But that is not an answer to her question. Her question was why Catholic Christians believe what they do about "purgatory".

    I gave an answer. That's what this website is about.

    PS/Edit: Wondergirl, please forgive the digression. The post I posted answers (partially) your question. I say partially because entire books have been written on the subject...

    I don't ask you (or anyone else) to accept it - I only gave it as a reply to your question of "why do Catholic Christians believe".
  • Mar 26, 2009, 01:51 PM
    Wondergirl

    So Catholic Christians believe in purgatory because their catechism teaches it?
  • Mar 26, 2009, 02:33 PM
    RickJ
    No. One who believes just because someone says so is not really "belief".

    I fear that you did not read past the first paragraph.

    Yes, the "Catechism" teaches it but that is not why we believe. The "Catechism" is only a summary of what we believe - it does just "fair to middlin'" as far as why we believe.

    The Apostles hinted at it (the idea of what we today call "purgatory") and the early Church (after "the twelve") argued about it.
  • Mar 26, 2009, 03:17 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RickJ View Post
    I fear that you did not read past the first paragraph.

    Ya caught me! I'm at work -- read the first, then skimmed the rest so I wouldn't get fired for not cataloging books.
  • Mar 26, 2009, 06:22 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RickJ View Post
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

    I don't care about denomination specific teachings, but let's look at your other arguments:

    Quote:

    The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
    Christians have no such concern:

    Heb 1:1-4
    1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    NKJV

    Notice that Jesus by Himself pirged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.
    Quote:

    It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).
    Luke 12:57-59
    57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
    NKJV

    This does not even need explanation. This has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory. The topic is about men using sound judgment - see verse 57.

    Quote:

    Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.
    Matt 12:31-32
    32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
    NKJV

    This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.
    Quote:

    Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
    1 Cor 3:11-16
    11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
    NKJV

    This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

    Quote:

    Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).
    2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

    2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
    NRSV
  • Mar 26, 2009, 06:28 PM
    JoeT777
    I understand this question is to go beyond ‘proof’ of Purgatory and seems to be asking why Catholics want to believe in purgatory.

    Some, not all by any stretch of the imagination, believe that purgatory is a state of being” wherein Christ “removes…the remnants of imperfection” It is this grace whereby the soul is cleansed of sin and the effects of sin. Our faith holds, like the Jews, that to be in the presence of God one must be sacrificially clean without blemish. (Cf. Lv 21:17-23, 22:21) Further, God demands of us a perfect love, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart” (Deu 6:5-6). The New Testament echoes this very same requirement for one’s entire love to be directed to God.

    Even our works are to be tested for the love of God. The Holy Father John Paul II said that the “Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

    Others here have rightly pointed out that Christ is man’s intercessor functioning as the high priest sacrificing himself as compensation for our sins. (Cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). “He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).” Being presented to God upon on death we are called to “cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.”

    In our worldly endeavors, we come into contact with sin. Sin is a moral evil that stains the soul, and afflicts the heart. But, those of us who merit entering into a communion with God are blessed to with the fullness of eternal life are united with the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant through purgatory’s purification.

    “The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where ‘men will weep and gnash their teeth'” (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

    Source: L'Osservatore Romano Weekly Edition in English Heaven: 28 July 1999, 7 Hell: 4 August 1999, 7 Purgatory: 11/18 August, 7


    JoeT
  • Mar 26, 2009, 06:44 PM
    arcura
    Wondergirl
    The Catholic Church teaches about purgatory because...
    1. Holy Scripture indicates the existence of Purgatory.
    2. The earliest Christians prayed for the dead in Purgatory.
    The writings on the walls of the catacombs under Rome where the early Christians hid form their persecutors and worshipped there give testimony to that.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Mar 26, 2009, 06:47 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Some, not all by any stretch of the imagination, believe that purgatory is a state of being” wherein Christ “removes…the remnants of imperfection” It is this grace whereby the soul is cleansed of sin and the effects of sin. Our faith holds, like the Jews, that to be in the presence of God one must be sacrificially clean without blemish.

    But again,

    Heb 1:1-4
    1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    NKJV

    Notice that Jesus by Himself purged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

    From my perspective, when God did it all, finished the job, purged all my sins, that was good enough for me. Why would you think that you need to (or indeed even could) pay for sins already purged by Jesus on the cross?
  • Mar 26, 2009, 06:51 PM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
    But again,

    Heb 1:1-4
    1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    NKJV

    Notice that Jesus by Himself purged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

    From my perspective, when God did it all, finished the job, purged all my sins, that was good enough for me. Why would you think that you need to (or indeed even could) pay for sins already purged by Jesus on the cross?

    The opening proposition confines us to the question of ” Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?” How does your response relate to the question?

    JoeT
  • Mar 26, 2009, 07:24 PM
    arcura
    Tj3,
    We do not have to pay for sins purged.
    We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
    Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
    The explanation is there.
    Fred
  • Mar 26, 2009, 09:22 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    The opening proposition confines us to the question of ” Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?” How does your response relate to the question?


    Because, if Jesus purged our sins on the cross, then why would you want to believe in something which is not scriptural and which is not required?
  • Mar 26, 2009, 09:24 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Tj3,
    We do not have to pay for sins purged.
    We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
    Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
    The explanation is there.
    Fred

    Fred,

    Some place does not perfect us. Jesus took care of that on the cross:

    Heb 10:12-14
    12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
    NKJV
  • Mar 26, 2009, 09:25 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Tj3,
    We do not have to pay for sins purged.
    We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
    Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
    The explanation is there.
    Fred

    So Jesus' death on the cross was just not enough to take away all sins.
  • Mar 26, 2009, 09:47 PM
    arcura
    Wondergirl,
    OF COURSE what Jesus did was enough so that our sins could be forgiven.
    But that is not what Purgatory is all about.
    After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
    It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.
    Of course you don't need to believe in Purgatory, but if you are heaven bound you some day will by being there.
    Keep in mind that the existence of Purgatory IS based o scripture.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Mar 26, 2009, 09:55 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
    It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.

    So Jesus' sacrifice was okay for past sins but not for sins we will do in the future? He just can't make us totally saved and forgiven?
  • Mar 26, 2009, 10:11 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Wondergirl,
    OF COURSE what Jesus did was enough so that our sins could be forgiven.
    But that is not what Purgatory is all about.
    After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
    It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.

    Fred, that was already addressed. Jesus said that He took care of that forever on the cross.

    Quote:

    Keep in mind that the existence of Purgatory IS based o scripture.
    You tell us that, but I have seen nothing regarding purgatory in scripture.
  • Mar 26, 2009, 10:12 PM
    Tj3
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    So Jesus' sacrifice was okay for past sins but not for sins we will do in the future? He just can't make us totally saved and forgiven?

    He sure can!

    1 John 1:7-8
    7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    NKJV
  • Mar 26, 2009, 10:27 PM
    arcura
    Wondergirl ,
    If you do not confess your sins after they take place they will NOT be forgiven.
    The Bible says that you must confess and ask for forgiveness.
    Also Jesus has told us that If we do not forgive the sins others sin against us we will not be forgiven. That means EACH time that happens.
    Jesus does not forgive sins we are going to do in the future ahead of time.
    We must take care of that ourselves by confessing them with remorse and asking for forgiveness.
    That is what the bible teaches so that is what I do.
    I know of that bogus theology that all sins past and future are washed way with Christ's blood. I once believed that myself until I started studying and learning what the bible REALLY said about that.
    We can not be forgiven then go on sinning without doing what is necessary to have all our sins forgiven as we go through this life.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Mar 26, 2009, 10:44 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Jesus does not forgive sins we are going to do in the future ahead of time.
    We must take care of that ourselves by confessing them with remorse and asking for forgiveness.

    So Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough; it went only so far? When push comes to shove, Christians have to save themselves?
  • Mar 26, 2009, 11:02 PM
    arcura
    Wondergirl,
    I previously said that Yes Christ's sacrifice was good enough.
    Please pay attention.
    But the bible tells us clearly what we must do to get our sins forgiven by what Jesus did for us.
    Please quit throwing that typical Protestant accusation at me for it is false.
    Instead please try do understand what the all of what bible really says about getting our sins forgiven.
    I'm going to bed now and I'll pray that the Holy Spirit opens you mind to all that the word of God has says ALL about forgiveness of sins.
    Please and kindness,
    Fred
  • Mar 26, 2009, 11:09 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Wondergirl,
    I previously said that Yes Christ's sacrifice was good enough.
    Please pay attention.
    But the bible tells us clearly what we must do to get our sins forgiven by what Jesus did for us.
    Please quit throwing that typical Protestant accusation at me for it is false.
    Instead please try do understand what the all of what bible really says about getting our sins forgiven.
    I'm going to bed now and I'll pray that the Holy Spirit opens you mind to all that the word of God has says ALL about forgiveness of sins.
    Please and kindness,
    Fred

    I was simply going on and reacting to your words -- "I know of that bogus theology that all sins past and future are washed way with Christ's blood." So that means you are saying Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough.
  • Mar 27, 2009, 05:48 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura View Post
    Tj3,
    We do not have to pay for sins purged.
    We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
    Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
    The explanation is there.
    Fred

    Fred, I feel the idea of puratory is built by man's doubt and misunderstanding in Christ being worthy to wash us clean...

    The state of purified souls is written in scripture. And does give the act of obedience being the way. Follow Christ!

    We are told in faith we walk in Christ, and that we are temples of the Holy Spirit when we do the will of God, and Trust in God's Word. In the flesh of Christ which is The Word was the evident of all.

    Just look at the example in prayer Christ taught us. Confess of sin and lead us from temptations... One must believe what he is praying, and the obedience it shows in righteousness when they pray. Prayer is valued in faith without sight knowingGod is with us and hears us. It shows love in God and for God.

    Are Catholic servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?

    ( Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness).

    Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


    Confess Christ as worthy... forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But (you were) with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    That word lives within us when we walk in Christ.. It is what Paul speaks of by going beyond the principle doctrine into discerning right from wrong, and being righteous and holy.


    1 Peter 1:14-15
    As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


    I Cor 10:5-6
    Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.



    The babe is weak, and is known to give suck to deception. (Christ said it is the babe that gives suck, those are they whom we should cry for)

    Hebrew 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
  • Mar 27, 2009, 05:52 AM
    artlady

    It is a sin to commit suicide.If I were to do so I would not go to heaven but because I was not truly evil I would not go to hell.

    I would be in purgatory,until such time as I was purged of my sin.
  • Mar 27, 2009, 06:10 AM
    sndbay
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by artlady View Post
    It is a sin to commit suicide.If I were to do so I would not go to heaven but because I was not truly evil I would not go to hell.

    I would be in purgatory,until such time as I was purged of my sin.

    Artlady,

    The conviction of the heart can (only) be judge by Christ.. A place can not save anyone.. It is Christ who determines their fate.

    The scripture tells of the desire to want to be with the Father in heaven rather then here on earth. But we are told we are here to serve God, and do His will..

    Satan tempation are powerful, and we need to trust in God and find strength in His way.
  • Mar 27, 2009, 06:37 AM
    artlady
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sndbay View Post
    Artlady,

    The conviction of the heart can (only) be judge by Christ.. A place can not save anyone.. It is Christ who determines their fate.

    The scripture tells of the desire to want to be with the Father in heaven rather then here on earth. But we are told we are here to serve God, and do His will..

    Satan tempation are powerful, and we need to trust in God and find strength in His way.

    Thank-you.I appreciate it.
  • Mar 27, 2009, 09:47 AM
    Akoue
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    So Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough; it went only so far? When push comes to shove, Christians have to save themselves?

    I find this way of putting it to be more than a little counterintuitive and even a bit tendentious (by design, perhaps?). The question isn't whether Christ's sacrifice was "good enough"; I can't imagine anyone who'd claim that it wasn't. The question is, rather, what is God's plan for salvation and how does that play itself out?

    We know that Christ died for our sins, all of our sins. He died to bring the possibility and hope for salvation. But his death and resurrection isn't sufficient to save us all--and few people actually think otherwise. You yourself have acknowledged in an earlier post that we have to respond to Christ's sacrifice, we have to accept it. We have to have faith. Now how would you respond to an interlocutor who asked you whether you have thereby committed yourself to the claim that Christ's sacrifice wasn't "good enough"? I have in mind someone who favors the notion of apokatastasis, or universal salvation: Such a person might say that you, by requiring faith as an acceptance and acknowledgement of Christ's sacrifice, are thereby denying the sufficiency of that sacrifice to save all on its own. What would your response be? Well, one response you might think to offer is to say that Christ's sacrifice is indeed sufficient all on its own, but that by affirming the necessity of faith for salvation you are simply unpacking what that sacrifice is and means, that Christ died so that those who have faith in him and accept his sacrifice might be saved. To do so would be to see that sacrifice as itself a call in much the way that Catholics do: It is a sacrifice, but it is also a calling, an invitation.

    That would be a perfectly fair mode of response on your part. As it is, I think, for Catholics to say not that the sacrifice on the Cross was in any way deficient, but that it is part of God's salvific plan for humanity, a plan which includes faith and works and the purification of the soul in preparation for union with the Divine in heaven. You might well disagree with any or all of that, to be sure, but to my ears at least the claim that saying any of that is tantamount to saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't "good enough" sounds more like rhetorical jousting than anything else. Christ died on a certain day in a certain year. It is not the case that every human being who has lived between then and now is without sin (Scripture tells us that, in fact, no one is without sin). So Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient to rid all of humanity of sin. And while Christ conquered death, it is still the case that humans are born and die. So Christ's conquering death doesn't mean that there is no death. And Scripture tells us that we must be repentant, that we must ask for the forgiveness of our sins. So Christ's dying for the forgiveness of sins doesn't by itself grant the forgiveness of all of everybody's sins. The work of salvation begun on Calvary continues today as it has throughout the two thousand or so years since his death: In every one of us, the work of salvation continues. This is what it means to say that we, each of us, have to make a decision for ourselves, we must choose belief or disbelief, faith or faithlessness. There are many senses of "sufficient" in which Christ's sacrifice was entirely sufficient all on its own; and there are many senses of "sufficient" in which it isn't.

    I don't take the doctrine of Purgatory to play the role of filling a psychological need. Were we to go down that path one could just as easily argue that the belief that nothing more is required of me than to affirm that Christ died for my sins fills a psychological need: It lets me feel like I'm off the hook, nothing is required of me, I'm done. Jesus died on such-and-such date thousands of years ago and I don't have to do a blessed thing to reap the rewards of that. I can see how this is psychologically satisfying. But that doesn't mean that I think people who hold to this view do so in order to satisfy an inner psychological craving to feel let off the hook. The same goes for Purgatory: I don't think people believe in Purgatory because it makes them feel good. I think people believe in Purgatory because it addresses some pretty important theological questions. We know that after the death of the body the soul lives on. And we know that the soul isn't just dormant, because we see two people flanking Jesus at the transfiguration whose bodies died long, long before. So they were somewhere. Jesus, after he died and before he was resurrected, preached the Gospel to those who had died. Where were they? In Hell? In Heaven? Moreover, we know that each of us dies a sinner. And we know that nothing impure can enter God's presence. So what happens between death and entering God's presence that purifies us?

    Now reasonable people can disagree about the answers to these questions, of course. But the questions aren't dumb ones, and the doctrine of Purgatory as a response to them isn't dumb either. And it doesn't evacuate the Crucifixion of its meaning or salvific power. In fact, it takes that meaning and salvific power for granted. It rather acknowledges that the work of salvation isn't complete until the final Judgment--the work of salvation didn't end on Golgotha.

    Catholics believe that there are those who have died and are with God. And Catholics sometimes ask them to pray to the Father on their behalf, this in the belief that they are not dead but are in fact alive in Christ and are with the Father even now. Also in the belief that God looks favorably on the prayers of those who serve and have served him well. But Catholics also believe that there are those who have died and who are not with the Father but who will be, who are even now being prepared to enter into his presence. These are people who had faith and accepted Christ's sacrifice but who fell asleep in the Lord as sinners. Catholics believe that God honors his promises to these people and that they will not be cast out of the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics believe that Christ ministers to their souls in order to bring them the rest of the way, in order to purify them and make them ready for the last leg of their journey home.

    As I say, reasonable people can take a different view. But I don't find the objection that Purgatory isn't mentioned in Scripture to be at all compelling. One reason is that it is in some canons of Scripture, so that just relocates the issue: One must then have a principled case to make for the exclusion of one or another book from the canon of Scripture. But since the canon of Scripture has always been a pretty fluid thing, this isn't likely to settle very much, in my opinion. Another reason is that the absence of a doctrine from the Bible isn't proof of the error of that doctrine. Not by a long shot, in fact (see Rick's remarks concerning the doctrine of the Trinity). If one wants to pursue this line, again the issue is going to be relocated to a principled defense of the doctrine of sola scriptura (a doctrine which is itself not to be found articulated in Scripture). In fact, I would argue that while Scripture is an essential and invaluable part of God's revelation it is a terrible mistake to regard it as the whole of revelation. Scripture doesn't even regard itself as the whole of revelation.

    So, as for your question why there is belief in Purgatory, I would say (as I pretty much already have) that it speaks to pressing theological questions and that for many the doctrine is recommended by their canon of Scripture.
  • Mar 27, 2009, 10:32 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Akoue View Post
    And we know that nothing impure can enter God's presence. So what happens between death and entering God's presence that purifies us?

    Jesus' sacrifice is what makes us pure. Unfortunately, after the Holy Spirit works faith in our hearts, we do not immediately go to our heavenly abode, but must live out our lives here on earth, still caught in the sinful condition that exists here, where, like Luther said, we are at the same time saints and sinners. Our good works, done for the glory of God and the good of our fellowmankind, are only our thank-yous to God for His marvelous work in us; works do nothing to grease the wheels of our salvation, because Jesus' work was all-sufficient. There is no "between death and heaven"; our reward is immediate, thanks to Jesus.

    Because we are still sinful humans and still living in this sinful world, all our good works are tainted with sin. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," Isaiah reminds us. Therefore, they cannot be counted for our salvation. Only the perfect, all-sufficient righteousness that Jesus accomplished for us with His perfect life, will be enough for our salvation. This comes to us by grace, imputed to us through faith, with faith being a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9). Saving faith is not dependent upon the number of works one does, but is a gift of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.

    It is so very difficult, isn't it, to accept a free gift from someone and not feel obligated to pay for it in some way. We often hear, "Nothing is free in this life" or "Behind every free gift, there are strings attached somehow." Reminds me of my mother-in-law. Every Christmas, she would assess the value of the gifts she had been lovingly given and then give each person pay-back money. What an insult, a declaration that our gifts were not good enough.

    I would bake her a surprise batch of cookies that I knew she liked, and she would hand me a $50 bill in "payment." When I refused the money, she found ways to slip it into my purse or coat pocket or even to one of my children, so that I found it after I got home. (She stopped doing that when I told her I donate the money to the local cat shelter. She hates cats.) She tried to pay me for the cards and jokes I sent to her husband while he recovered from a bypass. His thank-yous and speedy recovery were sufficient for me (and the cat shelter benefitted again). That's all God expects in return, our thank-yous to Him when His love flows through us to others.

    In the same way, I consider purgatory insulting to Christ for his unconditional and all-sufficient love, and His perfect grace, indefensible to the message of the Gospel, and even mercenary.
  • Mar 27, 2009, 10:45 AM
    RickJ

    What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?

    Yes, indeed, Catholics are taught (and should believe) that salvation is a GIFT. But a gift can be accepted or rejected.

    As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things).

    If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally... with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?
  • Mar 27, 2009, 11:00 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RickJ View Post
    What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?

    Because it does. Because the Bible says so. His sacrifice has restored us as children of the Father. No further work is needed.

    Quote:

    If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally... with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?
    Hell, hmmm, that's another subject to discuss.

    No, that person goes to heaven. And we all will not have repented of certain sins, known and unknown, sins of omission and commission, before we die. Do Christians live on the brink of the abyss and are always in danger of hellfire?
  • Mar 27, 2009, 11:18 AM
    450donn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RickJ View Post
    What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?Try Eph 1:7 for starters

    Yes, indeed, Catholics are taught (and should believe) that salvation is a GIFT. But a gift can be accepted or rejected. So true. However there are many that profess to be a "christian" on Sunday and live like the devil Monday thru Saturday. They are not true Christians are they? Those are the sort of people who go through the motions to make themselves look good just like the Pharisees did in Jesus's days. Those people will still stand before the throne of God, but will find their names not in the book of life. They will be the ones who will complain of all the good works they have done, and God will turn a deaf ear on.

    As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things).Please site chapter and verse where Jesus ever taught anything like this?

    If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally...with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?

    What or who says this person is a "good" christian? A Christian who has professed that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior will make to to heaven. He will though have to stand before the throne of God on judgment day to answer for his sin(s). On that day he will be judged and if his name is written in the book of life, PHP 4:3,REV 3:5,REV17:8,REV 20:15,REV 21:27 he will enter into the kingdom of God. If his name is not found in the book, he will go to hell along with all the others that have rejected Christ. No matter how many people pray for his soul.
  • Mar 27, 2009, 11:24 AM
    RickJ

    The Bible does not say so. Where do you think it does?

    I already know where you think it does :)

    So what, then, does one need to keep this "purity" that you mention? And is it "guaranteed" forever? If so, where in the bible do you find that?

    ... but alas, we digress far from your initial "question" - which we can all see now was not really a "question" but an invitation to debate. That's why it was moved it from the question board where you initially posted it :)

    No problem! :) I and many others here like a good debate :)

    I predict that you should recognize that at some point - which may be now: The real lover of debate will recognize when it's time to say "We'll just have to agree to disagree" ;)
  • Mar 27, 2009, 11:31 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RickJ View Post
    I predict that you should recognize that at some point - which may be now: The real lover of debate will recognize when it's time to say "We'll just have to agree to disagree" ;)

    I love you to pieces, RickJ, and I knew we already agreed to disagree. I started this thread to keep another one from being shut down. Should I start another purgatory one and word it differently? How about one on hell? Something safe like one on cats?
  • Mar 27, 2009, 11:37 AM
    RickJ

    I'm not sure. I'll let you know after I down a couple of cold ones to wash down my Friday in Lent Fish 'n' Chips :)

    Ooooh hoooo, now maybe we should start yet another thread on whether it's OK for Christians to consume alcoholic beverages! :p

    Oh forget it, I'm sure there's already a thread or three about that ;) :p

  • All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:49 AM.