[arcura]

Wondergirl,
OF COURSE what Jesus did was enough so that our sins could be forgiven.
But that is not what Purgatory is all about.
After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.
Of course you don't need to believe in Purgatory, but if you are heaven bound you some day will by being there.
Keep in mind that the existence of Purgatory IS based o scripture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.

So Jesus' sacrifice was okay for past sins but not for sins we will do in the future? He just can't make us totally saved and forgiven?

[Tj3]

Wondergirl,
OF COURSE what Jesus did was enough so that our sins could be forgiven.
But that is not what Purgatory is all about.
After our sins are forgiven we still have the tendency to sin some more,
It is that sinful nature that we morals have that needed to be cleansed.

Fred, that was already addressed. Jesus said that He took care of that forever on the cross.

Keep in mind that the existence of Purgatory IS based o scripture.

You tell us that, but I have seen nothing regarding purgatory in scripture.

[Tj3]

So Jesus' sacrifice was okay for past sins but not for sins we will do in the future? He just can't make us totally saved and forgiven?

He sure can!

1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

[arcura]

Wondergirl ,
If you do not confess your sins after they take place they will NOT be forgiven.
The Bible says that you must confess and ask for forgiveness.
Also Jesus has told us that If we do not forgive the sins others sin against us we will not be forgiven. That means EACH time that happens.
Jesus does not forgive sins we are going to do in the future ahead of time.
We must take care of that ourselves by confessing them with remorse and asking for forgiveness.
That is what the bible teaches so that is what I do.
I know of that bogus theology that all sins past and future are washed way with Christ's blood. I once believed that myself until I started studying and learning what the bible REALLY said about that.
We can not be forgiven then go on sinning without doing what is necessary to have all our sins forgiven as we go through this life.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Jesus does not forgive sins we are going to do in the future ahead of time.
We must take care of that ourselves by confessing them with remorse and asking for forgiveness.

So Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough; it went only so far? When push comes to shove, Christians have to save themselves?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
I previously said that Yes Christ's sacrifice was good enough.
Please pay attention.
But the bible tells us clearly what we must do to get our sins forgiven by what Jesus did for us.
Please quit throwing that typical Protestant accusation at me for it is false.
Instead please try do understand what the all of what bible really says about getting our sins forgiven.
I'm going to bed now and I'll pray that the Holy Spirit opens you mind to all that the word of God has says ALL about forgiveness of sins.
Please and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,
I previously said that Yes Christ's sacrifice was good enough.
Please pay attention.
But the bible tells us clearly what we must do to get our sins forgiven by what Jesus did for us.
Please quit throwing that typical Protestant accusation at me for it is false.
Instead please try do understand what the all of what bible really says about getting our sins forgiven.
I'm going to bed now and I'll pray that the Holy Spirit opens you mind to all that the word of God has says ALL about forgiveness of sins.
Please and kindness,
Fred

I was simply going on and reacting to your words -- "I know of that bogus theology that all sins past and future are washed way with Christ's blood." So that means you are saying Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough.

[sndbay]

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

Fred, I feel the idea of puratory is built by man's doubt and misunderstanding in Christ being worthy to wash us clean...

The state of purified souls is written in scripture. And does give the act of obedience being the way. Follow Christ!

We are told in faith we walk in Christ, and that we are temples of the Holy Spirit when we do the will of God, and Trust in God's Word. In the flesh of Christ which is The Word was the evident of all.

Just look at the example in prayer Christ taught us. Confess of sin and lead us from temptations... One must believe what he is praying, and the obedience it shows in righteousness when they pray. Prayer is valued in faith without sight knowingGod is with us and hears us. It shows love in God and for God.

Are Catholic servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?

( Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness).

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


Confess Christ as worthy... forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But (you were) with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That word lives within us when we walk in Christ.. It is what Paul speaks of by going beyond the principle doctrine into discerning right from wrong, and being righteous and holy.


1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


I Cor 10:5-6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.



The babe is weak, and is known to give suck to deception. (Christ said it is the babe that gives suck, those are they whom we should cry for)

Hebrew 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

[artlady]

It is a sin to commit suicide.If I were to do so I would not go to heaven but because I was not truly evil I would not go to hell.

I would be in purgatory,until such time as I was purged of my sin.

[sndbay]

It is a sin to commit suicide.If I were to do so I would not go to heaven but because I was not truly evil I would not go to hell.

I would be in purgatory,until such time as I was purged of my sin.

Artlady,

The conviction of the heart can (only) be judge by Christ.. A place can not save anyone.. It is Christ who determines their fate.

The scripture tells of the desire to want to be with the Father in heaven rather then here on earth. But we are told we are here to serve God, and do His will..

Satan tempation are powerful, and we need to trust in God and find strength in His way.

[artlady]

Artlady,

The conviction of the heart can (only) be judge by Christ.. A place can not save anyone.. It is Christ who determines their fate.

The scripture tells of the desire to want to be with the Father in heaven rather then here on earth. But we are told we are here to serve God, and do His will..

Satan tempation are powerful, and we need to trust in God and find strength in His way.

Thank-you.I appreciate it.

[Akoue]

So Jesus' sacrifice wasn't good enough; it went only so far? When push comes to shove, Christians have to save themselves?

I find this way of putting it to be more than a little counterintuitive and even a bit tendentious (by design, perhaps?). The question isn't whether Christ's sacrifice was "good enough"; I can't imagine anyone who'd claim that it wasn't. The question is, rather, what is God's plan for salvation and how does that play itself out?

We know that Christ died for our sins, all of our sins. He died to bring the possibility and hope for salvation. But his death and resurrection isn't sufficient to save us all--and few people actually think otherwise. You yourself have acknowledged in an earlier post that we have to respond to Christ's sacrifice, we have to accept it. We have to have faith. Now how would you respond to an interlocutor who asked you whether you have thereby committed yourself to the claim that Christ's sacrifice wasn't "good enough"? I have in mind someone who favors the notion of apokatastasis, or universal salvation: Such a person might say that you, by requiring faith as an acceptance and acknowledgement of Christ's sacrifice, are thereby denying the sufficiency of that sacrifice to save all on its own. What would your response be? Well, one response you might think to offer is to say that Christ's sacrifice is indeed sufficient all on its own, but that by affirming the necessity of faith for salvation you are simply unpacking what that sacrifice is and means, that Christ died so that those who have faith in him and accept his sacrifice might be saved. To do so would be to see that sacrifice as itself a call in much the way that Catholics do: It is a sacrifice, but it is also a calling, an invitation.

That would be a perfectly fair mode of response on your part. As it is, I think, for Catholics to say not that the sacrifice on the Cross was in any way deficient, but that it is part of God's salvific plan for humanity, a plan which includes faith and works and the purification of the soul in preparation for union with the Divine in heaven. You might well disagree with any or all of that, to be sure, but to my ears at least the claim that saying any of that is tantamount to saying that Christ's sacrifice wasn't "good enough" sounds more like rhetorical jousting than anything else. Christ died on a certain day in a certain year. It is not the case that every human being who has lived between then and now is without sin (Scripture tells us that, in fact, no one is without sin). So Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient to rid all of humanity of sin. And while Christ conquered death, it is still the case that humans are born and die. So Christ's conquering death doesn't mean that there is no death. And Scripture tells us that we must be repentant, that we must ask for the forgiveness of our sins. So Christ's dying for the forgiveness of sins doesn't by itself grant the forgiveness of all of everybody's sins. The work of salvation begun on Calvary continues today as it has throughout the two thousand or so years since his death: In every one of us, the work of salvation continues. This is what it means to say that we, each of us, have to make a decision for ourselves, we must choose belief or disbelief, faith or faithlessness. There are many senses of "sufficient" in which Christ's sacrifice was entirely sufficient all on its own; and there are many senses of "sufficient" in which it isn't.

I don't take the doctrine of Purgatory to play the role of filling a psychological need. Were we to go down that path one could just as easily argue that the belief that nothing more is required of me than to affirm that Christ died for my sins fills a psychological need: It lets me feel like I'm off the hook, nothing is required of me, I'm done. Jesus died on such-and-such date thousands of years ago and I don't have to do a blessed thing to reap the rewards of that. I can see how this is psychologically satisfying. But that doesn't mean that I think people who hold to this view do so in order to satisfy an inner psychological craving to feel let off the hook. The same goes for Purgatory: I don't think people believe in Purgatory because it makes them feel good. I think people believe in Purgatory because it addresses some pretty important theological questions. We know that after the death of the body the soul lives on. And we know that the soul isn't just dormant, because we see two people flanking Jesus at the transfiguration whose bodies died long, long before. So they were somewhere. Jesus, after he died and before he was resurrected, preached the Gospel to those who had died. Where were they? In Hell? In Heaven? Moreover, we know that each of us dies a sinner. And we know that nothing impure can enter God's presence. So what happens between death and entering God's presence that purifies us?

Now reasonable people can disagree about the answers to these questions, of course. But the questions aren't dumb ones, and the doctrine of Purgatory as a response to them isn't dumb either. And it doesn't evacuate the Crucifixion of its meaning or salvific power. In fact, it takes that meaning and salvific power for granted. It rather acknowledges that the work of salvation isn't complete until the final Judgment--the work of salvation didn't end on Golgotha.

Catholics believe that there are those who have died and are with God. And Catholics sometimes ask them to pray to the Father on their behalf, this in the belief that they are not dead but are in fact alive in Christ and are with the Father even now. Also in the belief that God looks favorably on the prayers of those who serve and have served him well. But Catholics also believe that there are those who have died and who are not with the Father but who will be, who are even now being prepared to enter into his presence. These are people who had faith and accepted Christ's sacrifice but who fell asleep in the Lord as sinners. Catholics believe that God honors his promises to these people and that they will not be cast out of the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics believe that Christ ministers to their souls in order to bring them the rest of the way, in order to purify them and make them ready for the last leg of their journey home.

As I say, reasonable people can take a different view. But I don't find the objection that Purgatory isn't mentioned in Scripture to be at all compelling. One reason is that it is in some canons of Scripture, so that just relocates the issue: One must then have a principled case to make for the exclusion of one or another book from the canon of Scripture. But since the canon of Scripture has always been a pretty fluid thing, this isn't likely to settle very much, in my opinion. Another reason is that the absence of a doctrine from the Bible isn't proof of the error of that doctrine. Not by a long shot, in fact (see Rick's remarks concerning the doctrine of the Trinity). If one wants to pursue this line, again the issue is going to be relocated to a principled defense of the doctrine of sola scriptura (a doctrine which is itself not to be found articulated in Scripture). In fact, I would argue that while Scripture is an essential and invaluable part of God's revelation it is a terrible mistake to regard it as the whole of revelation. Scripture doesn't even regard itself as the whole of revelation.

So, as for your question why there is belief in Purgatory, I would say (as I pretty much already have) that it speaks to pressing theological questions and that for many the doctrine is recommended by their canon of Scripture.

[Wondergirl]

And we know that nothing impure can enter God's presence. So what happens between death and entering God's presence that purifies us?

Jesus' sacrifice is what makes us pure. Unfortunately, after the Holy Spirit works faith in our hearts, we do not immediately go to our heavenly abode, but must live out our lives here on earth, still caught in the sinful condition that exists here, where, like Luther said, we are at the same time saints and sinners. Our good works, done for the glory of God and the good of our fellowmankind, are only our thank-yous to God for His marvelous work in us; works do nothing to grease the wheels of our salvation, because Jesus' work was all-sufficient. There is no "between death and heaven"; our reward is immediate, thanks to Jesus.

Because we are still sinful humans and still living in this sinful world, all our good works are tainted with sin. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," Isaiah reminds us. Therefore, they cannot be counted for our salvation. Only the perfect, all-sufficient righteousness that Jesus accomplished for us with His perfect life, will be enough for our salvation. This comes to us by grace, imputed to us through faith, with faith being a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9). Saving faith is not dependent upon the number of works one does, but is a gift of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.

It is so very difficult, isn't it, to accept a free gift from someone and not feel obligated to pay for it in some way. We often hear, "Nothing is free in this life" or "Behind every free gift, there are strings attached somehow." Reminds me of my mother-in-law. Every Christmas, she would assess the value of the gifts she had been lovingly given and then give each person pay-back money. What an insult, a declaration that our gifts were not good enough.

I would bake her a surprise batch of cookies that I knew she liked, and she would hand me a $50 bill in "payment." When I refused the money, she found ways to slip it into my purse or coat pocket or even to one of my children, so that I found it after I got home. (She stopped doing that when I told her I donate the money to the local cat shelter. She hates cats.) She tried to pay me for the cards and jokes I sent to her husband while he recovered from a bypass. His thank-yous and speedy recovery were sufficient for me (and the cat shelter benefitted again). That's all God expects in return, our thank-yous to Him when His love flows through us to others.

In the same way, I consider purgatory insulting to Christ for his unconditional and all-sufficient love, and His perfect grace, indefensible to the message of the Gospel, and even mercenary.

[RickJ]

What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?

Yes, indeed, Catholics are taught (and should believe) that salvation is a GIFT. But a gift can be accepted or rejected.

As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things).

If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally... with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?

[Wondergirl]

What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?

Because it does. Because the Bible says so. His sacrifice has restored us as children of the Father. No further work is needed.

If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally... with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?

Hell, hmmm, that's another subject to discuss.

No, that person goes to heaven. And we all will not have repented of certain sins, known and unknown, sins of omission and commission, before we die. Do Christians live on the brink of the abyss and are always in danger of hellfire?

[450donn]

What makes you think that Jesus' sacrifice makes us "pure"?Try Eph 1:7 for starters

Yes, indeed, Catholics are taught (and should believe) that salvation is a GIFT. But a gift can be accepted or rejected. So true. However there are many that profess to be a "christian" on Sunday and live like the devil Monday thru Saturday. They are not true Christians are they? Those are the sort of people who go through the motions to make themselves look good just like the Pharisees did in Jesus's days. Those people will still stand before the throne of God, but will find their names not in the book of life. They will be the ones who will complain of all the good works they have done, and God will turn a deaf ear on.

As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things).Please site chapter and verse where Jesus ever taught anything like this?

If a good Christin commits a serious sin then gets hit by a truck and dies before he can fully (verbally or mentally...with full mental capabilities intact) repent - do you think he goes to Hell?

What or who says this person is a "good" christian? A Christian who has professed that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior will make to to heaven. He will though have to stand before the throne of God on judgment day to answer for his sin(s). On that day he will be judged and if his name is written in the book of life, PHP 4:3,REV 3:5,REV17:8,REV 20:15,REV 21:27 he will enter into the kingdom of God. If his name is not found in the book, he will go to hell along with all the others that have rejected Christ. No matter how many people pray for his soul.

[RickJ]

The Bible does not say so. Where do you think it does?

I already know where you think it does :)

So what, then, does one need to keep this "purity" that you mention? And is it "guaranteed" forever? If so, where in the bible do you find that?

... but alas, we digress far from your initial "question" - which we can all see now was not really a "question" but an invitation to debate. That's why it was moved it from the question board where you initially posted it :)

No problem! :) I and many others here like a good debate :)

I predict that you should recognize that at some point - which may be now: The real lover of debate will recognize when it's time to say "We'll just have to agree to disagree" ;)

[Wondergirl]

I predict that you should recognize that at some point - which may be now: The real lover of debate will recognize when it's time to say "We'll just have to agree to disagree" ;)

I love you to pieces, RickJ, and I knew we already agreed to disagree. I started this thread to keep another one from being shut down. Should I start another purgatory one and word it differently? How about one on hell? Something safe like one on cats?

[RickJ]

I'm not sure. I'll let you know after I down a couple of cold ones to wash down my Friday in Lent Fish 'n' Chips :)

Ooooh hoooo, now maybe we should start yet another thread on whether it's OK for Christians to consume alcoholic beverages! :p

Oh forget it, I'm sure there's already a thread or three about that ;) :p