 |
In a separate thread, that sort of got a life of its own there was a discussion of batism being only a symbol, and not having a real act.
But there was no bible readings to back this up, from either side.
So perhaps this would be the better place for it.
A very good article worth reading.
Baptism is a symbolic washing with water as a religious practice. It indicates or transmits purification, the washing away of sins, and the start of a renewed life. Baptism is most important in the Christian religion. But many other religions include ceremonies that are similar to Baptism.
Nearly all Christian churches baptize. They follow the example of Saint John the Baptist and the instructions of Jesus Christ and Saint Paul, as set forth in the New Testament. Most churches consider baptism to be the main ceremony signifying a person's entry into the Christian community.
In a typical Christian baptism ceremony, the person being baptized makes a statement of faith in Jesus. Sponsors, called godparents, may make the statement on behalf of infants. In most cases, a priest or minister then pronounces the person's name and administers the water, saying, "I baptize you in the Name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," or similar words. Often, infants are christened (named) during the baptism ceremony. Christening also refers to baptism itself.
The meaning and procedure of baptism vary among Christian churches. For example, the Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, Reformed, and Roman Catholic churches consider baptism a sacrament or ordinance. According to these churches, baptism gives or expresses God's grace in a person, regardless of the individual's awareness of it. As a result, they baptize infants as well as adults. Most of these churches usually administer baptismal water by pouring or sprinkling it. The Eastern Orthodox Churches practice immersion (submerging a person into water).
Baptist and similar churches believe that baptism should follow a voluntary, public statement of faith in Jesus Christ as savior. Therefore, they do not baptize people who are too young to realize the significance of such a statement.
Contributor: Robert S. Ellwood, Jr. Ph.D. Prof. of Religion, Univ. of Southern California.
That's a very nice little summary. Thanks for finding it and posting it here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLCAM
This describes baptism from a wider perspective of a person speaking about how he sees baptism practiced.Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLCAM
Biblically speaking, baptism is a symbolic act identifying us with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and is an act of obedience which takes place after we receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour.
Sort of depends on what part of the Bible you are reading. The old testament the ceremonial washing was to cleanse oneself for a ceremony or ritual. In the new testament it has come to mean a washing away of the old self and a rebirth if you will as a new person in Christ. It is also an affirmation and public statement of your faith in Jesus Christ.
Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Baptism was an act of righteousness that Christ fulfilled (brought forth) to be done..
God Our Father in heaven then said: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Christ did as His Father wilt.
We are to do the will of God, we are to follow Christ, walking in Christ.. Christ shows the way.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John 10:27)
Baptism is the work of God. When one is Baptized, the visible action of the water washing the body symbolizes the real yet invisible action of the Spirit washing the soul and regenerating (rebirth) of the man in the Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Titus 3 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;
1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
John 3 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts Of Apostles 2 38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Colossians 2
11 In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.
Water baptism is a symbolic act which a person who has already been saved and washed of their sins performs in obedience to God's word.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
It is must more then that Tom.. It is shown to be done in fulfillment of righteousness.. And we are to be righteous for He was righteousness.. To walk in Him, you must be baptized in the same manner as Christ Himself fulfilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Baptism also joins us together in Christ by being dead and buried of this world.. Newness of live, not of this world but in Christ.
Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Not quite Tom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
In order to understand this topic, you must understand the justification of Abraham.
Let me begin from the beginning:
Was Abraham baptized? I think you will agree the answer is, no. But you might also ask, "What does Abraham have to do with this?"
Well, Abraham is the classic example of justification used by both St. Paul and St. James. St. Paul and St. James are Christian writers and they are using Abraham's justification as the foundation for Christian justification. You see?
Yet, Abraham did not go to heaven! Not directly. It is Catholic doctrine that the Patriarchs went to Limbo of the Fathers.
Why?
This is the CRUX of the matter. Because they were not baptized. Baptism is Christian justification. It is the new justification of God from the inside. It is SANCTIFICATION. It is the application of sanctifying grace to the soul. Without this sanctifying grace, no one can enter heaven.
Yet both St. Paul and St. James say that Abraham was justified. What is this justification that they speak of?
It is Justicia Dei Extra Nos. It is Justification by our own efforts in response to grace. It is justification by faith. Justification by works.
The Catholic Encyclopedia explains it thus. This excerpt begins in the midst of explaining the effects of sanctifying grace. Note the part in bold:
The formal cause of justification
... and sanctity is universally termed "sanctifying (or habitual) grace", and stands in marked contrast to an exterior, imputed sanctity, as well as to the idea of merely covering and concealing sin. By this, however, we do not assert that the "justitia Dei extra nos" is of no importance in the process of justification. For, even if it is not the formalcause of justification ( causa formalis), it is nevertheless its true exemplar (causa exemplaris), inasmuch as the soul receives a sanctity in imitation of God's own holiness...
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Justification
This is the only justification which was available to people of the Old Covenant. Baptism was not introduced until the advent of Jesus Christ. Sanctifying grace was not released until Jesus died on the Cross.
So, justification was a one step process in the Old Testament.
A two step process in the New.
1. Justification of faith and works.
2. True justification of regeneration by water and Spirit. (i.e. Baptism)
Baptism is the work of God. When one is Baptized, the visible action of the water washing the body symbolizes the real yet invisible action of the Spirit washing the soul and regenerating (rebirth) of the man in the Spirit. This is why Christian justification by Baptism is so radically superior to Old Testament justification.
I understand justification and sanctification, but Abraham is not used as the basis for baptism - it is the symbolic ritual of the mikveh which is used as the basis for baptism - indeed it IS baptism.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV
The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament where it is translated as “baptism”.
Heb 9:11-15
But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV
This part of the passage compares the blood sacrifices in the Old Testament times with the one sacrifice which was capable of taking away sins of men, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. What we see here is that the Old Testament rituals were prophetic of that which was to come. We see a comparison to the Old testament sacrifices to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross which cleanses our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:16-18
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
NKJV
The focus of the covenant is the blood, both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant us the prophetic symbolism of animal blood and the New Covenant focuses on the blood shed on the cross of Christ, the only way that we can be truly saved through the forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:19-22
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV
The key is given here again. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
Heb 9:23
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
NKJV
The ritual washings and blood sacrifices were for purification, but they were just symbolic of the only means of purification from sin which was effective, the sacrifice on the cross.
Heb 9:24-28
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
NKJV
Romans chapter 6 re-states this truth, that water baptism was prophetic of the death and resurrection of Christ. In Romans 6, Paul referred to water baptism as the “likeness” of the death and resurrection.
Baptism was symbolic of the coming of Christ, just as many or most of the ancient rituals in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. And we keep some of them today, for example, Passover was pointing to the blood of Christ, whereas Easter looks backwards to the cross. Baptism in the OT Testament testified prophetically of the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross, and today we use baptism as symbolic of the same thing, only now looking back.
But the salvation is not in the symbolic act as scripture says, but rather it is to point us to that which does saved - to the blood shed by Christ on the cross of Calvary.
I believe that is what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
In the Old Testament. Baptism means washing. And yes, it was symbolic.Quote:
- it is the symbolic ritual of the mikveh which is used as the basis for baptism - indeed it IS baptism.
In addition, the pouring of water remains symbolic of the Holy Spirits action in the soul.
Correct. It was symbolic.Quote:
Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV
Correct.Quote:
The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament where it is translated as “baptism”.
All true.Quote:
Heb 9:11-15
But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV
Still true.Quote:
This part of the passage compares the blood sacrifices in the Old Testament times with the one sacrifice which was capable of taking away sins of men, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. What we see here is that the Old Testament rituals were prophetic of that which was to come. We see a comparison to the Old testament sacrifices to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross which cleanses our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Still true.Quote:
Heb 9:16-18
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
NKJV
The focus of the covenant is the blood, both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant us the prophetic symbolism of animal blood and the New Covenant focuses on the blood shed on the cross of Christ, the only way that we can be truly saved through the forgiveness of sins.
Still true.Quote:
Heb 9:19-22
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV
The key is given here again. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
Still true.Quote:
Heb 9:23
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
NKJV
The ritual washings and blood sacrifices were for purification, but they were just symbolic of the only means of purification from sin which was effective, the sacrifice on the cross.
Lets review Romans 6 in detail:Quote:
Heb 9:24-28
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
NKJV
Romans chapter 6 re-states this truth, that water baptism was prophetic of the death and resurrection of Christ. In Romans 6, Paul referred to water baptism as the “likeness” of the death and resurrection.
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
It sounds as though being buried in baptism into death we are therefore freed of sin.
This is all true. The problem is that you stop with the symbol. But the symbol of washing points to the action of the Holy Spirit on the soul. We are regenerated during Baptism, not before. Otherwise, Abraham would have been regenerated and gone to heaven. But he was not regenerated. That only takes place in Baptism.Quote:
Baptism was symbolic of the coming of Christ, just as many or most of the ancient rituals in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. And we keep some of them today, for example, Passover was pointing to the blood of Christ, whereas Easter looks backwards to the cross. Baptism in the OT Testament testified prophetically of the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross, and today we use baptism as symbolic of the same thing, only now looking back.
Still true. But the blood of Christ is not symbol. The symbol of water washing our body points to the actual washing of our soul in the blood of Christ.Quote:
But the salvation is not in the symbolic act as scripture says, but rather it is to point us to that which does saved - to the blood shed by Christ on the cross of Calvary.
Sincerely,
I am glad that you agree that baptism is symbolic.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hi Tom,
My Grandfather once told me, that in raising my children, don't say anything you don't mean. And he said, For neither did our Father in heaven say anything He didn't mean.
So what I do when reading scripture, is try to hear / see all our Father has offered in doing His Will. We need to look deeper at what our Father has told us.
Passover pointed to the blood, and the unleaven bread.
Christ became our Passover in that His blood was shed once, and for all.. (Free from sin)
Still today we honor the unleaven bread that Christ was, He walked in the flesh of man as the incorruptible body that God dwelled in, and that as Christ walked in the Father.
This ensamples today as we should do. Christ dwells in us, and we walk in Christ. (as the baptized flesh body unity in Christ)(For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cr 12:13) We become the incorruptible, the righteous, the holiness because we are in Christ, and He dwells in us. (Matthew 20:23)
John baptized with water but we are baptized with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 1:5)
We now are baptized with the Holy Spirit and the fire. (Luke 3:16 Matthew 3:11)
The fire of our Father is to burn anything which is not fruitful, that which will be cast into the fire. The working of blood that was shed for grace, and the fire is the reaping of the flesh which molds us into perfection. .Newness of Life... ( Matthew 3:12 John 15:6 Luke 3: 17)
Baptism is each individual choice to confess their faith in Christ Jesus and willingness to walk in Christ. Noted: Christ fulfilled and suffered to righteousness in baptism
Tom, scripture goes on to tell us how we then are dead and buried in Christ through baptism.. Able then to raise as He did..
Baptism is much more then what man has imagined .. And man has made void the Truth of what our Father has told us. In the traditions of man (the corruptable leaven) many have lost and fallen to deception.
No one questions that the water washing the body is a symbolic aspect of Baptism. But that symbolic aspect represents the actual, real, laver of regeneration and renewal which the Holy Spirit accomplishes in our soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Agreed. It is the work of the Holy Spirit which takes place prior to water baptism that actually washes our sin, and that is part of what baptism symbolizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Not prior to, but during. That is why Abraham, the example of justification before Baptism, did not enter heaven. He was not regenerated because he had not been washed by the laver of regeneration which only happens in Baptism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This is also why Cornelius had to be Baptized. In order that he be washed in the washing of regeneration and thereby renewed and born again of the Spirit.
Cornelius was not born again until he was Baptized.
The newness of life by baptism is fulfilled in the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Baptism wasn’t all that strange to Jews. It’s my recollection that others, other than St. John the Baptist, had a Baptism ceremony. Could it be that the Baptism needed both form and matter? Obviously water is the matter; maybe you can tell us the form? And why is it that all sacraments have both form and matter; could it be that participants receive temporal and spiritual graces?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Needed? I don't know that I would say, needed. But that is what God willed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I baptize you, ______, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Simultaneously dip or pour water three times.Quote:
Obviously water is the matter; maybe you can tell us the form?
Not as I understand it. What are the temporal graces associated with Baptism to which you refer?Quote:
And why is it that all sacraments have both form and matter; could it be that participants receive temporal and spiritual graces?
***(edited: Three hours later. OOOOh! You mean the Sacraments of healing!) You are correct! There are temporal graces associated with some Sacraments.***
Here is how I understand the Sacraments. Since we are speaking of Baptism, lets stick to that for the examples.
God has always provided us graces through matter. Do you remember how God washed away the sinful humanity in the waters of the flood? Do you remember how Naaman was washed clean of illness in the waters of the Jordan? Do you remember how the Jews were saved by walking through the waters of the Red Sea?
God has worked through matter throughout history to provide us with grace. But these miracles were one of a kind. They were moments in history when God stepped in to affect salvation history.
In the New Covenant, God has instituted Sacraments. Literally, Mysteries of His Grace, through which He acts invisibly by visible signs. Ex opere operato-by the very fact they are done. These visible signs are speech acts. That is, they are words and actions which accomplish that which they signify. This speech act, this covenant, changes things. One moment before it occurred, we were unregenerate. One moment after, we are regenerated, renewed and born again of the Holy Spirit.
In Baptism, the form and matter are to say, I baptize you in the name of the Father... (pour or dip into water)... in the name of the Son... (pour or dip into water)... and in the name of the Holy Spirit (pour or dip into water). Amen.
The words signify that God has called us by name. The Amen is an oath formula signifying that we have said yes to God. The water signifies that we have been washed clean of our sins.
The Form and the Matter are then the perceptible sign that the grace of the Covenant is enacted. We are newborn babes in the Spirit.
I may be wrong though Joe. Tell me if that corresponds with how you understand the Sacraments. Especially Baptism.
You need to have read through Acts 10 where we see an example of the Holy Spirit indwelling saved person prior to water baptism.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Does the text say that the Holy Spirit was indwelling the Cornelius? Or are you reading that into the text?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Read a little bit further:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Acts 10:46-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV
You know, if you would just be wrong once, it would really help my ego to catch some small error.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Yes, that’s exactly my understanding of the Sacraments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I'd like to add an emphasis to the ‘Mysteries of His Grace,’ especially Baptism. In Baptism there is a gift received so holy, a gift rooted in the soul so deep it can’t be lost for a life time, no not a life time, it can’t be lost in an eternity. Baptism incorporates us in with the mystical body of Christ, impressing into the soul the ineradicable mark of Christ; making us participants, citizens, and partakers in His Sacrifice. The mystery, the mysticism isn’t like erasable pencil marks, but once applied, the waters itch first, rills, then gullies, then river valleys filling deep with faith. Only a small drop causes an ocean of cleansing waters. Speaking of’ symbolic’, THIS baptism makes the good ol’ Southern Baptist dunk into quintessential symbolic s; in fact ”he would commit a grievous sin, in matters concerning the salvation of his soul, in the mere fact of preferring uncertainty to certainty.” Without the Church such laving waters are somehow diverted, unable to remake the landscape of the soul.
So, there’s a reason beyond just corporate pride when St. Augustine said, “There are two propositions, moreover, which we affirm, — that baptism exists in the Catholic Church, and that in it alone can it be rightly received” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book I, 3)
Baptism is only one part of the many parts that makeup our redemption. It comes alive inside the penitent’s box, it radiates at in the presence of the Eucharist; “To prevent which … does not cease striving that they may come and be healed by the medicine of reconciliation, through the bond of peace.” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book I, 3)
JoeT
In other words, St. Peter says, now that they have received the Spirit, they need to be reborn, regenerated. As Jesus said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
John 3 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
No, he said nothing of the sort. If you think that he did, show me the specific words.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The Holy Spirit, BTW, does not indwell unbelievers:
John 14:16-18
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV
Those that do not believe do not follow Christ. But those who do follow, and are baptized, walk in Christ and He in them. Christ did free us from sin with His blood shed.. Now the body, the flesh must follow as servants unto God's will just as Christ ensampled.. Being baptized begins the newness of live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
However when baptized you are in the Spirit and are (dead in Christ, buried the flesh)
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
As servants unto God's will..
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Not everyone who is saved is baptized, just as not everyone who is saved obeys God perfectly in other areas (actually, no one does). To say that we MUST be obedient in this symbolic ritual to be saved is to go back to a legalistic gospel.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Scripture does not say this anywhere - it does say that it is SYMBOLIC, but nowhere does it say that it BEGINS newness of life.Quote:
Being baptized begins the newness of live.
When baptized the individual is gifted with the Spirit ... and with fire... His hand fans the fire continuely to purge the floor .. HIS house where He dwells within you should be the temple for HIM. The servant of obedience and righteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What is the context of this discussion? Indwelling or regenerating and renewing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Baptism is the washing of grace by which God regenerates and renews the believer.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
OK.Quote:
just as not everyone who is saved obeys God perfectly in other areas (actually, no one does).
Then I suppose you consider Christ's Gospel legalistic. Because Christ says:Quote:
To say that we MUST be obedient in this symbolic ritual to be saved is to go back to a legalistic gospel.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Where does Scripture say it is only symbolic?Quote:
Scripture does not say this anywhere - it does say that it is SYMBOLIC, but nowhere does it say that it BEGINS newness of life.
Beautifully expressed Joe. That is why missing the Mass is such a heinous sin described as trampling underfoot the blood of Christ by which we were sanctified:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Heb 10
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
That washing of the body represents the washing of the soul in the blood of Christ which sanctifies us and incorporates us into His body.
Thread is baptism...Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Titus 3:5 is in reference to a new man, putting them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates and ready to do good works. (Eph 5: 26) (Matthew 19:28) washing is primarily a vessel for bathing.. Romans 12:2 renewing meaning as in the mind
Solid choice in all that is written in The Word/ The Flesh of Chirst
Eph 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Then that ends it. We agree that Baptism is not essential for salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3Not everyone who is saved is baptized,Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Acts 10 gives an example of a person gifted with the Holy Spirit before salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Yes it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
How to explain?
To us, Baptism is not just a bath. It is a gift of renewal and regeneration by the Blood of Christ in the Holy Spirit.
Every time we go to Mass we apply Holy Water to our forehead and make the sign of the Cross, thus renewing our Covenant with God which was first applied in the Sacrament of Baptism.
In addition, we read the Scriptures and thus relive the history of the family to which we were joined by the grace of God.
And we also pray several prayers in which we renounce Satan and sin and thereby also remember our Baptism and our union with God.
Finally, we receive the other Sacraments within the context of the Mass.
So, anyone who misses the Mass intentionally, by that very fact, is repudiating his Baptism and trampling underfoot the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and counting for nought the blood of Christ which He shed for our salvation.
So, I'm not trying to change the subject. Just explaining the importance of Baptism to the Catholic.
Tom I have no doubt that the Spirit warned Peter about the 3 men...(Acts 10:19) nor do I doubt that they told the truth about the angel in his house that sent him to Peter (Acts 11:13) nor do I doubt that at that time God made them clean (Act 10:28)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
(Acts 11:15) speaks of how the Holy Spirit began in them just as it had begun in Peter
REMEMBER: Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Acts 11 is about how (all may come into the house of the Lord to be One in Christ)
Question: were the Gentiles baptized later? YES
Reality today...
Can you imagine today being cleaned any other way then by Christ's blood? I can't..
Nor can I imagine today the Spirit being joined to us without the confessed faith in Christ Jesus and baptism
It's all about what Christ fulfilled.. (Matthew 3:15)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I note that you skipped right over this section of scripture.
Acts 10:46-48
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV
Yes, it had already been noted in previous posting..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Tom: What meaning has this scripture to us as servants? Can we expect to be a servant to Christ if we do not walk in His ways?
Mark 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:17 PM. |