 |
|
| Browse | Ask | Answer | Search | Join/Login |
|
|
||||
|
Baptism, its meaning
In a separate thread, that sort of got a life of its own there was a discussion of batism being only a symbol, and not having a real act.
But there was no bible readings to back this up, from either side. So perhaps this would be the better place for it. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
A very good article worth reading. Baptism is a symbolic washing with water as a religious practice. It indicates or transmits purification, the washing away of sins, and the start of a renewed life. Baptism is most important in the Christian religion. But many other religions include ceremonies that are similar to Baptism. Nearly all Christian churches baptize. They follow the example of Saint John the Baptist and the instructions of Jesus Christ and Saint Paul, as set forth in the New Testament. Most churches consider baptism to be the main ceremony signifying a person's entry into the Christian community. In a typical Christian baptism ceremony, the person being baptized makes a statement of faith in Jesus. Sponsors, called godparents, may make the statement on behalf of infants. In most cases, a priest or minister then pronounces the person's name and administers the water, saying, "I baptize you in the Name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," or similar words. Often, infants are christened (named) during the baptism ceremony. Christening also refers to baptism itself. The meaning and procedure of baptism vary among Christian churches. For example, the Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, Reformed, and Roman Catholic churches consider baptism a sacrament or ordinance. According to these churches, baptism gives or expresses God's grace in a person, regardless of the individual's awareness of it. As a result, they baptize infants as well as adults. Most of these churches usually administer baptismal water by pouring or sprinkling it. The Eastern Orthodox Churches practice immersion (submerging a person into water). Baptist and similar churches believe that baptism should follow a voluntary, public statement of faith in Jesus Christ as savior. Therefore, they do not baptize people who are too young to realize the significance of such a statement. Contributor: Robert S. Ellwood, Jr. Ph.D. Prof. of Religion, Univ. of Southern California. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
 Originally Posted by ROLCAM
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by ROLCAM
Biblically speaking, baptism is a symbolic act identifying us with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and is an act of obedience which takes place after we receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sort of depends on what part of the Bible you are reading. The old testament the ceremonial washing was to cleanse oneself for a ceremony or ritual. In the new testament it has come to mean a washing away of the old self and a rebirth if you will as a new person in Christ. It is also an affirmation and public statement of your faith in Jesus Christ. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. Baptism was an act of righteousness that Christ fulfilled (brought forth) to be done.. God Our Father in heaven then said: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Christ did as His Father wilt. We are to do the will of God, we are to follow Christ, walking in Christ.. Christ shows the way. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John 10:27) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Titus 3 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; 1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. John 3 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Acts Of Apostles 2 38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Colossians 2 11 In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by De Maria
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
Baptism also joins us together in Christ by being dead and buried of this world.. Newness of live, not of this world but in Christ. Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
In order to understand this topic, you must understand the justification of Abraham. Let me begin from the beginning: Was Abraham baptized? I think you will agree the answer is, no. But you might also ask, "What does Abraham have to do with this?" Well, Abraham is the classic example of justification used by both St. Paul and St. James. St. Paul and St. James are Christian writers and they are using Abraham's justification as the foundation for Christian justification. You see? Yet, Abraham did not go to heaven! Not directly. It is Catholic doctrine that the Patriarchs went to Limbo of the Fathers. Why? This is the CRUX of the matter. Because they were not baptized. Baptism is Christian justification. It is the new justification of God from the inside. It is SANCTIFICATION. It is the application of sanctifying grace to the soul. Without this sanctifying grace, no one can enter heaven. Yet both St. Paul and St. James say that Abraham was justified. What is this justification that they speak of? It is Justicia Dei Extra Nos. It is Justification by our own efforts in response to grace. It is justification by faith. Justification by works. The Catholic Encyclopedia explains it thus. This excerpt begins in the midst of explaining the effects of sanctifying grace. Note the part in bold: The formal cause of justification ... and sanctity is universally termed "sanctifying (or habitual) grace", and stands in marked contrast to an exterior, imputed sanctity, as well as to the idea of merely covering and concealing sin. By this, however, we do not assert that the "justitia Dei extra nos" is of no importance in the process of justification. For, even if it is not the formalcause of justification ( causa formalis), it is nevertheless its true exemplar (causa exemplaris), inasmuch as the soul receives a sanctity in imitation of God's own holiness... CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Justification This is the only justification which was available to people of the Old Covenant. Baptism was not introduced until the advent of Jesus Christ. Sanctifying grace was not released until Jesus died on the Cross. So, justification was a one step process in the Old Testament. A two step process in the New. 1. Justification of faith and works. 2. True justification of regeneration by water and Spirit. (i.e. Baptism) Baptism is the work of God. When one is Baptized, the visible action of the water washing the body symbolizes the real yet invisible action of the Spirit washing the soul and regenerating (rebirth) of the man in the Spirit. This is why Christian justification by Baptism is so radically superior to Old Testament justification. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by De Maria
Heb 9:9-10 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. NKJV The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament where it is translated as “baptism”. Heb 9:11-15 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. NKJV This part of the passage compares the blood sacrifices in the Old Testament times with the one sacrifice which was capable of taking away sins of men, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. What we see here is that the Old Testament rituals were prophetic of that which was to come. We see a comparison to the Old testament sacrifices to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross which cleanses our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. Heb 9:16-18 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. NKJV The focus of the covenant is the blood, both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant us the prophetic symbolism of animal blood and the New Covenant focuses on the blood shed on the cross of Christ, the only way that we can be truly saved through the forgiveness of sins. Heb 9:19-22 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. NKJV The key is given here again. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. Heb 9:23 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. NKJV The ritual washings and blood sacrifices were for purification, but they were just symbolic of the only means of purification from sin which was effective, the sacrifice on the cross. Heb 9:24-28 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. NKJV Romans chapter 6 re-states this truth, that water baptism was prophetic of the death and resurrection of Christ. In Romans 6, Paul referred to water baptism as the “likeness” of the death and resurrection. Baptism was symbolic of the coming of Christ, just as many or most of the ancient rituals in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. And we keep some of them today, for example, Passover was pointing to the blood of Christ, whereas Easter looks backwards to the cross. Baptism in the OT Testament testified prophetically of the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross, and today we use baptism as symbolic of the same thing, only now looking back. But the salvation is not in the symbolic act as scripture says, but rather it is to point us to that which does saved - to the blood shed by Christ on the cross of Calvary. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
- it is the symbolic ritual of the mikveh which is used as the basis for baptism - indeed it IS baptism.
In addition, the pouring of water remains symbolic of the Holy Spirits action in the soul.
Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. NKJV
The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament where it is translated as “baptism”.
Heb 9:11-15
But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. NKJV
This part of the passage compares the blood sacrifices in the Old Testament times with the one sacrifice which was capable of taking away sins of men, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. What we see here is that the Old Testament rituals were prophetic of that which was to come. We see a comparison to the Old testament sacrifices to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross which cleanses our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:16-18
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. NKJV The focus of the covenant is the blood, both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant us the prophetic symbolism of animal blood and the New Covenant focuses on the blood shed on the cross of Christ, the only way that we can be truly saved through the forgiveness of sins. Heb 9:19-22 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. NKJV The key is given here again. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
Heb 9:23
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. NKJV The ritual washings and blood sacrifices were for purification, but they were just symbolic of the only means of purification from sin which was effective, the sacrifice on the cross.
Heb 9:24-28
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. NKJV Romans chapter 6 re-states this truth, that water baptism was prophetic of the death and resurrection of Christ. In Romans 6, Paul referred to water baptism as the “likeness” of the death and resurrection. 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. It sounds as though being buried in baptism into death we are therefore freed of sin.
Baptism was symbolic of the coming of Christ, just as many or most of the ancient rituals in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. And we keep some of them today, for example, Passover was pointing to the blood of Christ, whereas Easter looks backwards to the cross. Baptism in the OT Testament testified prophetically of the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross, and today we use baptism as symbolic of the same thing, only now looking back.
But the salvation is not in the symbolic act as scripture says, but rather it is to point us to that which does saved - to the blood shed by Christ on the cross of Calvary.
Sincerely, |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by De Maria
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hi Tom, My Grandfather once told me, that in raising my children, don't say anything you don't mean. And he said, For neither did our Father in heaven say anything He didn't mean. So what I do when reading scripture, is try to hear / see all our Father has offered in doing His Will. We need to look deeper at what our Father has told us. Passover pointed to the blood, and the unleaven bread. Christ became our Passover in that His blood was shed once, and for all.. (Free from sin) Still today we honor the unleaven bread that Christ was, He walked in the flesh of man as the incorruptible body that God dwelled in, and that as Christ walked in the Father. This ensamples today as we should do. Christ dwells in us, and we walk in Christ. (as the baptized flesh body unity in Christ)(For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cr 12:13) We become the incorruptible, the righteous, the holiness because we are in Christ, and He dwells in us. (Matthew 20:23) John baptized with water but we are baptized with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 1:5) We now are baptized with the Holy Spirit and the fire. (Luke 3:16 Matthew 3:11) The fire of our Father is to burn anything which is not fruitful, that which will be cast into the fire. The working of blood that was shed for grace, and the fire is the reaping of the flesh which molds us into perfection. .Newness of Life... ( Matthew 3:12 John 15:6 Luke 3: 17) Baptism is each individual choice to confess their faith in Christ Jesus and willingness to walk in Christ. Noted: Christ fulfilled and suffered to righteousness in baptism Tom, scripture goes on to tell us how we then are dead and buried in Christ through baptism.. Able then to raise as He did.. Baptism is much more then what man has imagined .. And man has made void the Truth of what our Father has told us. In the traditions of man (the corruptable leaven) many have lost and fallen to deception. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by De Maria
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
This is also why Cornelius had to be Baptized. In order that he be washed in the washing of regeneration and thereby renewed and born again of the Spirit. Cornelius was not born again until he was Baptized. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by De Maria
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Obviously water is the matter; maybe you can tell us the form?
And why is it that all sacraments have both form and matter; could it be that participants receive temporal and spiritual graces?
***(edited: Three hours later. OOOOh! You mean the Sacraments of healing!) You are correct! There are temporal graces associated with some Sacraments.*** Here is how I understand the Sacraments. Since we are speaking of Baptism, lets stick to that for the examples. God has always provided us graces through matter. Do you remember how God washed away the sinful humanity in the waters of the flood? Do you remember how Naaman was washed clean of illness in the waters of the Jordan? Do you remember how the Jews were saved by walking through the waters of the Red Sea? God has worked through matter throughout history to provide us with grace. But these miracles were one of a kind. They were moments in history when God stepped in to affect salvation history. In the New Covenant, God has instituted Sacraments. Literally, Mysteries of His Grace, through which He acts invisibly by visible signs. Ex opere operato-by the very fact they are done. These visible signs are speech acts. That is, they are words and actions which accomplish that which they signify. This speech act, this covenant, changes things. One moment before it occurred, we were unregenerate. One moment after, we are regenerated, renewed and born again of the Holy Spirit. In Baptism, the form and matter are to say, I baptize you in the name of the Father... (pour or dip into water)... in the name of the Son... (pour or dip into water)... and in the name of the Holy Spirit (pour or dip into water). Amen. The words signify that God has called us by name. The Amen is an oath formula signifying that we have said yes to God. The water signifies that we have been washed clean of our sins. The Form and the Matter are then the perceptible sign that the grace of the Covenant is enacted. We are newborn babes in the Spirit. I may be wrong though Joe. Tell me if that corresponds with how you understand the Sacraments. Especially Baptism. |
||||
|
|
Not your question?
Ask your question
View similar questions
| Question Tools | Search this Question |
Check out some similar questions!
Baptism and salvation
[ 50 Answers ]
What is the relationship of Baptism and salvation?
Why baptism
[ 22 Answers ]
Fr Chuck, I have always wondered why you baptize babies. In my church we dedicate them back to God. It is basically the same thing isn't it?
Baptism!
[ 49 Answers ]
I was baptised when I was a small baby. My parents automatically dedicated my life to Christianity by doing so. In short, I wasn't given a chance to think for myself. Do you think parents should wait until an offspring can think for him/herself before being baptised? ...
Baptism
[ 2 Answers ]
What is a nice gift for a great granddaughters baptism?
View more questions Search
|
