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It would be like saying that, since Jesus was baptized by immersion in the River Jordan, we too must be immersed in the River Jordan in order to consider ourselves baptized. Or we must at least be immersed. Or we must at least be adults. (Oh, yeah. Tht's been said... )Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
He is actually wrong and experts who have examined the text (and you can check the majority of translations to verify what the translators think) have said that the word used in the text means "dead in the flesh", or literally "dead tissue", and refers to communication with the dead. Where is is correct is that over the years, the practice of speaking to the dead has typically been associated with sorcery, but Catholics claim that their speaking to the dead is different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
We have one example in scripture of a man who communicated with a saint in heaven and that did not go well for him.Quote:
Now if a verse said, do not pray to the saints in heaven because they are otherwise employed or because they are asleep until the Last Day, okay then. But this particular verse has nothing to do with saints in heaven.
That's because they don't believe they are speaking to the dead, but to a living soul, which you yourself have confirmed is the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Fred ...Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The way I walk is in Christ.. Do you find that in error?
When Christ says "call upon Me"... Would you call upon HIM in prayer?
Christ said "Come unto Me" ... Peter doubted (Matthew 14:31) then Peter cried "Lord save me" Christ reached out HIS hand...
The teaching of these words are clear... I do not doubt Christ hears my prayers, because my heart of love belongs to HIM. Christ taught us to pray, and Christ was shown to pray unto the Father.
Is it written that Christ prayed any other way?
What are you trying to say? Of course, Christians (and Catholics who are also Christians) pray to Christ. The entire point of this thread is that, just as Christians ask other Christians (saints) here on earth to pray for them during illnesses or during times of stress, Catholics also ask saints in heaven to do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
We don't reject prayer to Christ or to the Father. We simply believe we can ask our brothers in Christ to pray for us wherever they may be.
We do so regularly.Quote:
When Christ says "call upon Me"... Would you call upon HIM in prayer?
No. But Christ is God. It would seem strange for God to pray for intercession by a mortal. Don't you agree?Quote:
Christ said "Come unto Me" ... Peter doubted (Matthew 14:31) then Peter cried "Lord save me" Christ reached out HIS hand...
The teaching of these words are clear... I do not doubt Christ hears my prayers, because my heart of love belongs to HIM. Christ taught us to pray, and Christ was shown to pray unto the Father.
Is it written that Christ prayed any other way?
Yet even He called upon Mary, His mother for milk and bread. Do you deny that?
And He didn't come to earth to do everything Himself. In His economy, He sent emissaries, the Apostles and disciples to intercede before Him to mankind. Do you deny that?
And He established the Church for this purpose. Do you deny that?
And Scripture says that we should imitate Christ. And Scripture says that Christ is in heaven interceding for us before the Father. And Scripture says what is done in heaven should be done on earth. Do you deny that?
And the word of God praises Mary. Praise is another way in which we communicate with the Saints and to God.
God did not consider it beneath Him to praise Mary in His Word and other Saints as well. Why do so many people consider that it is beneath them to praise the Saints if God Himself has so done?
So, no, we don't condemn the way you pray. We also pray thus.
It is you who have not understood how and why we pray to the Saints as well as to the Holy Trinity.
That is it, in a nutshell. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Wondergirl,
Right you are again.
The saints in heaven are near to the Throne of God and dear to the Lord for they were of such that followed Him well as attested to by the fact that they are in heaven.
Yes, I ask both the saints here on this planet and in heaven to pray for me and for others including for my country and it's leaders.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Thank you DeMaria that was what I felt was in question... As we agreed earlier (That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ. )
What matters is not what they believe is okay - a person can be sincere, but sincerely wrong - what matters is what God's word says. I don't think that anyone is under the misconception that those who died in the flesh on earth and alive in the flesh in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I also note that no one has dealt with the fact that we have only one case in scripture where any person communicated with those who were dead in the flesh in heaven and God pronounced a condemnation on him for that.
We have absolutely nothing in scripture speaking in favour of, or endorsing the practice of, nor providing a positive example of communicating with the dead.
As you have agreed, there are saints alive as SPIRITS in heaven. No one in any of these threads has said they are alive in the FLESH. Praying to saints in heaven is communicating with saints ALIVE in SPIRIT, not dead in the flesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Saul resorted to witchcraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
However, we have the episode of the Mount of Tabor:
Mark 9:4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
What are familiar spirits? should not people seek unto the Lord? for the living to the dead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? For the living to the dead?
I am not twisting this scripture.. it is written just as I copied it.... can anyone explain this question?
That is playing words games. They are either alive in the flesh or dead in the flesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You demonstrate well why it is so important to read the context. Let's see what the verse right before that one says:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Mark 9:2-3
2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
NKJV
Do you know what this means? It means that Jesus was speaking to them while transfigured into His glory as God, not as man. Now, unless you are claiming to be God, this does not apply to you.
As for Saul, you are merely labeling it - I could show you many sources which label speaking to the dead as witchcraft also - without any reservation as to whether the person is or is not saved. If I went out to witness to a witch, or if I had a witch pass on a message for me to someone else, is that a sin because of what she is? No, it is what she is doing that makes it witchcraft. So what was she doing? Calling up the dead, and I might add, a person who was dead in the flesh but saved. So if you definition of "alive" holds, it would be no different than if a witch used a telephone to call you at home.
You told me that, once you are dead in the flesh, you will be alive in spirit in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Again, that is irrelevant since the prohibition is against communication with anyone who has died in the flesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Word games about them being alive in the spirit will not hold water at the judgment.
I might add that those in hell are still alive in the spirit also, but in torment. So using your approach would simply mean that when God told us not to speak to the dead in the flesh, he really didn't mean anything at all. He was just mistaken. I don't buy that argument - I don't think God called it an abomination though it wasn't important.
Yup. I think the point was that dead-in-the-flesh Moses was speaking and being spoken to by Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Right. Nowhere in scripture will we find anything exhorting us to speak to those who died in the flesh. Only condemnation of that and similar practices.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
That's your interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Not at all. It is simply reading what scripture says. The words mean what they mean. We cannot ignore them because we don't like what they say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Right - GOD was speaking to them. The fact that Jesus had to be transfigured into His glory as God before speaking to them ought to be one indicator. Do you note that the men who were there did not speak to the dead, but only to jesus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Or put our own spin on them to make them say what we want them to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Jesus "HAD" to be transfigured? This looks an awful lot like spin. Nowhere does it say that Jesus "had to be" transfigured in order to speak to the dead. Moreover, it was a human being, Jesus (he whom we are to imitate) who stood speaking to two dead men. Jesus did not cease to be human on Mt. Tabor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The NIV interprets it this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Isaiah 8:19 (New International Version)
19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
The term is interpreted the same way elsewhere:
Leviticus 19:31 (KJV)
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:31 (New International Version)
31 " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
That is in line with the New Testament which also says:
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Note that the term "spirit" is equated with "false prophet".
Well, I have given specific scriptural backup, as well as external experts, lexicons, etc.. You have told me that this this is your opinion that what I have posted is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So, it is your opinion that I am wrong. You have provided no validation for your opinion.
Well, I am prepared to accept the word of scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Well, Akoue, it seems to me that it is you that is into spin. I am arguing based upon what scripture DOES says. You are trying to argue based upon what scripture DOES NOT say.Quote:
Nowhere does it say that Jesus "had to be" transfigured in order to speak to the dead.
And that word is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You, not Scripture, said He had to be.Quote:
Well, Akoue, it seems to me that it is you that is into spin. I am arguing based upon what scripture DOES says. You are trying to argue based upon what scripture DOES NOT say.
Actually it says that they were speaking with Him:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
In other words, this was a two way communication.
But the point is that they were alive and speaking. Moses, whom you call dead in the flesh is very much alive in the spirit and Elias who was taken up body and soul is also very much alive, were both there speaking with Jesus.Quote:
while transfigured into His glory as God, not as man. Now, unless you are claiming to be God, this does not apply to you.
I would say that Samuel, a faithful prophet of God, is saved. Saul used a witch to conjure the dead Samuel.Quote:
As for Saul, you are merely labeling it - I could show you many sources which label speaking to the dead as witchcraft also - without any reservation as to whether the person is or is not saved.
We don't. We simply pray and let them hear our prayer. Because they surround us and can hear us. Otherwise they would not be called a cloud of witnesses:
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
This recalls the episode in the Old Testament:
2 Kings 6: 16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. 17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
We are always surrounded by the Saints in Christ.
You would be obeying the Gospel:Quote:
If I went out to witness to a witch,
James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
It certainly isn't in accord with the Scriptures:Quote:
or if I had a witch pass on a message for me to someone else, is that a sin because of what she is? No, it is what she is doing that makes it witchcraft.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (King James Version)
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
I don't think God wants us to be so familiar with witches that we would trust them with anything. Just my opinion.
We don't "call up" the dead.Quote:
So what was she doing? Calling up the dead, and I might add, a person who was dead in the flesh but saved.
We acknowledge what God has revealed. And God has revealed that the Saints in Christ are alive and aware of what happens on earth. They witness our actions, thus they see and hear us. And since Scripture says that we are to pray for each other, we ask them to pray for us in accordance with the Will of God.
Quite different. I don't associate with witches. Therefore if a witch were to call me at home, she would be disturbing me.Quote:
So if you definition of "alive" holds, it would be no different than if a witch used a telephone to call you at home.
1 Samuel 28
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?
Have you read it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Okay - so your position is that Jesus transfigured to His glory as God just to put on a show before He spoke to those who had died? I personally have not understood Jesus to be someone who came to earth to entertain us.Quote:
You, not Scripture, said He had to be.
I understand.
With JESUS in His glorified state as God - right. Not with the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
With JESUS in His glorified state as God - right. Not with the others.Quote:
But the point is that they were alive and speaking. Moses, whom you call dead in the flesh is very much alive in the spirit and Elias who was taken up body and soul is also very much alive, were both there speaking with Jesus.
Nothing that he did would have been a sin if Samuel were alive in the flesh.Quote:
I would say that Samuel, a faithful prophet of God, is saved. Saul used a witch to conjure the dead Samuel.
Huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
No, your position is that Jesus had to be transfigured.
What about the talking with, not to, Moses and Elias?
So, why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is with respect to the significance of Jesus speaking "to not with" Moses and Elijah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is regarding why Jesus transfigured into His glorified state as God? Why did He not speak to them as a man in the flesh?
Yes. I don't think you are getting the idea here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The episode at the Mount of Tabor shows that they speak to Jesus.
The following shows that they are aware of us:
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Since they are aware of us. Can see us and hear us. We ask them to pray to God for us.
This is in accord with the Will of God. God says that we must imitate Jesus. Jesus is interceding with God for us. Thus, the Saints in heaven must be interceding to God for us because they are certainly proven to be imitators of Christ. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.
How about answering my question instead of playing Socrates?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What question?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes, they did, they spoke to Jesus while He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Whether they are aware of us or not is not the question (though this verse does not state that they are aware), but rather whether we are to be communicating with those who are dead in the flesh.Quote:
The following shows that they are aware of us:
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
#232Quote:
Originally Posted by tj3
#231Quote:
Originally Posted by wondergirl
Now how about answering my question?
So, why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is with respect to the significance of Jesus speaking "with not to" Moses and Elijah?
Why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is regarding why Jesus transfigured into His glorified state as God? Why did He not speak to them as a man in the flesh?
That's horrible! Jesus talked with a dead-in-the-flesh saint!! What an example to all Christians!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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