[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl.
Both you and De Maria are right about that.
It is a big twist of scripture in attempt to interpret that verse in saying something it does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It would be like saying that, since Jesus was baptized by immersion in the River Jordan, we too must be immersed in the River Jordan in order to consider ourselves baptized. Or we must at least be immersed. Or we must at least be adults. (Oh, yeah. Tht's been said... )

[Tj3]

I do not pray to the saints in heaven, but believe De Maria is correct about this particular verse, that it does not forbid that practice. It forbids black magic and sorcery, but that is not what prayer to the saints is.

He is actually wrong and experts who have examined the text (and you can check the majority of translations to verify what the translators think) have said that the word used in the text means "dead in the flesh", or literally "dead tissue", and refers to communication with the dead. Where is is correct is that over the years, the practice of speaking to the dead has typically been associated with sorcery, but Catholics claim that their speaking to the dead is different.

Now if a verse said, do not pray to the saints in heaven because they are otherwise employed or because they are asleep until the Last Day, okay then. But this particular verse has nothing to do with saints in heaven.

We have one example in scripture of a man who communicated with a saint in heaven and that did not go well for him.

[Wondergirl]

Catholics claim that their speaking to the dead is different.

That's because they don't believe they are speaking to the dead, but to a living soul, which you yourself have confirmed is the truth.

[sndbay]

Wondergirl.
Both you and De Maria are right about that.
It is a big twist of scripture in attempt to interpret that verse in saying something it does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred ...

The way I walk is in Christ.. Do you find that in error?

When Christ says "call upon Me"... Would you call upon HIM in prayer?

Christ said "Come unto Me" ... Peter doubted (Matthew 14:31) then Peter cried "Lord save me" Christ reached out HIS hand...

The teaching of these words are clear... I do not doubt Christ hears my prayers, because my heart of love belongs to HIM. Christ taught us to pray, and Christ was shown to pray unto the Father.

Is it written that Christ prayed any other way?

[Wondergirl]

Fred ...

The way I walk is in Christ.. Do you find that in error?

When Christ says "call upon Me"... Would you call upon HIM in prayer?

Christ said "Come unto Me" ... Peter doubted (Matthew 14:31) then Peter cried "Lord save me" Christ reached out HIS hand...

The teaching of these words are clear... I do not doubt Christ hears my prayers, because my heart of love belongs to HIM. Christ taught us to pray, and Christ was shown to pray unto the Father.

Is it written that Christ prayed any other way?

What are you trying to say? Of course, Christians (and Catholics who are also Christians) pray to Christ. The entire point of this thread is that, just as Christians ask other Christians (saints) here on earth to pray for them during illnesses or during times of stress, Catholics also ask saints in heaven to do the same.

[De Maria]

Fred ...

The way I walk is in Christ.. Do you find that in error?

No.

We don't reject prayer to Christ or to the Father. We simply believe we can ask our brothers in Christ to pray for us wherever they may be.

When Christ says "call upon Me"... Would you call upon HIM in prayer?

We do so regularly.

Christ said "Come unto Me" ... Peter doubted (Matthew 14:31) then Peter cried "Lord save me" Christ reached out HIS hand...

The teaching of these words are clear... I do not doubt Christ hears my prayers, because my heart of love belongs to HIM. Christ taught us to pray, and Christ was shown to pray unto the Father.

Is it written that Christ prayed any other way?

No. But Christ is God. It would seem strange for God to pray for intercession by a mortal. Don't you agree?

Yet even He called upon Mary, His mother for milk and bread. Do you deny that?

And He didn't come to earth to do everything Himself. In His economy, He sent emissaries, the Apostles and disciples to intercede before Him to mankind. Do you deny that?

And He established the Church for this purpose. Do you deny that?

And Scripture says that we should imitate Christ. And Scripture says that Christ is in heaven interceding for us before the Father. And Scripture says what is done in heaven should be done on earth. Do you deny that?

And the word of God praises Mary. Praise is another way in which we communicate with the Saints and to God.

God did not consider it beneath Him to praise Mary in His Word and other Saints as well. Why do so many people consider that it is beneath them to praise the Saints if God Himself has so done?

So, no, we don't condemn the way you pray. We also pray thus.

It is you who have not understood how and why we pray to the Saints as well as to the Holy Trinity.

[De Maria]

What are you trying to say? Of course, Christians (and Catholics who are also Christians) pray to Christ. The entire point of this thread is that, just as Christians ask other Christians (saints) here on earth to pray for them during illnesses or during times of stress, Catholics also ask saints in heaven to do the same.

That is it, in a nutshell. Thanks.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Right you are again.
The saints in heaven are near to the Throne of God and dear to the Lord for they were of such that followed Him well as attested to by the fact that they are in heaven.
Yes, I ask both the saints here on this planet and in heaven to pray for me and for others including for my country and it's leaders.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

So, no, we don't condemn the way you pray. We also pray thus.

It is you who have not understood how and why we pray to the Saints as well as to the Holy Trinity.

Thank you DeMaria that was what I felt was in question... As we agreed earlier (That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ. )

[Tj3]

That's because they don't believe they are speaking to the dead, but to a living soul, which you yourself have confirmed is the truth.

What matters is not what they believe is okay - a person can be sincere, but sincerely wrong - what matters is what God's word says. I don't think that anyone is under the misconception that those who died in the flesh on earth and alive in the flesh in heaven.

I also note that no one has dealt with the fact that we have only one case in scripture where any person communicated with those who were dead in the flesh in heaven and God pronounced a condemnation on him for that.

We have absolutely nothing in scripture speaking in favour of, or endorsing the practice of, nor providing a positive example of communicating with the dead.

[Wondergirl]

I don't think that anyone is under the misconception that those who died in the flesh on earth and alive in the flesh in heaven.... communicating with the dead.

As you have agreed, there are saints alive as SPIRITS in heaven. No one in any of these threads has said they are alive in the FLESH. Praying to saints in heaven is communicating with saints ALIVE in SPIRIT, not dead in the flesh.

[De Maria]

What matters is not what they believe is okay - a person can be sincere, but sincerely wrong - what matters is what God's word says. I don't think that anyone is under the misconception that those who died in the flesh on earth and alive in the flesh in heaven.

I also note that no one has dealt with the fact that we have only one case in scripture where any person communicated with those who were dead in the flesh in heaven and God pronounced a condemnation on him for that.

We have absolutely nothing in scripture speaking in favour of, or endorsing the practice of, nor providing a positive example of communicating with the dead.

Saul resorted to witchcraft.

However, we have the episode of the Mount of Tabor:

Mark 9:4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

[sndbay]

I also note that no one has dealt with the fact that we have only one case in scripture where any person communicated with those who were dead in the flesh in heaven and God pronounced a condemnation on him for that.
.

What are familiar spirits? should not people seek unto the Lord? for the living to the dead?

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? For the living to the dead?


I am not twisting this scripture.. it is written just as I copied it.... can anyone explain this question?

[Tj3]

As you have agreed, there are saints alive as SPIRITS in heaven. No one in any of these threads has said they are alive in the FLESH. Praying to saints in heaven is communicating with saints ALIVE in SPIRIT, not dead in the flesh.

That is playing words games. They are either alive in the flesh or dead in the flesh.

[Tj3]

Saul resorted to witchcraft.

However, we have the episode of the Mount of Tabor:

Mark 9:4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

You demonstrate well why it is so important to read the context. Let's see what the verse right before that one says:

Mark 9:2-3
2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
NKJV

Do you know what this means? It means that Jesus was speaking to them while transfigured into His glory as God, not as man. Now, unless you are claiming to be God, this does not apply to you.

As for Saul, you are merely labeling it - I could show you many sources which label speaking to the dead as witchcraft also - without any reservation as to whether the person is or is not saved. If I went out to witness to a witch, or if I had a witch pass on a message for me to someone else, is that a sin because of what she is? No, it is what she is doing that makes it witchcraft. So what was she doing? Calling up the dead, and I might add, a person who was dead in the flesh but saved. So if you definition of "alive" holds, it would be no different than if a witch used a telephone to call you at home.

[Wondergirl]

That is playing words games. They are either alive in the flesh or dead in the flesh.

You told me that, once you are dead in the flesh, you will be alive in spirit in heaven.

[Tj3]

You told me that, once you are dead in the flesh, you will be alive in spirit in heaven.

Again, that is irrelevant since the prohibition is against communication with anyone who has died in the flesh.

Word games about them being alive in the spirit will not hold water at the judgment.

I might add that those in hell are still alive in the spirit also, but in torment. So using your approach would simply mean that when God told us not to speak to the dead in the flesh, he really didn't mean anything at all. He was just mistaken. I don't buy that argument - I don't think God called it an abomination though it wasn't important.

[Wondergirl]

Do you know what this means? It means that Jesus was speaking to them

Yup. I think the point was that dead-in-the-flesh Moses was speaking and being spoken to by Jesus.

[Tj3]

What are familiar spirits? should not people seek unto the Lord? for the living to the dead?

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?


I am not twisting this scripture.. it is written just as I copied it.... can anyone explain this question?

Right. Nowhere in scripture will we find anything exhorting us to speak to those who died in the flesh. Only condemnation of that and similar practices.

[Wondergirl]

Again, that is irrelevant since the prohibition is against communication with anyone who has died in the flesh.

That's your interpretation.