Ask Me Help Desk - What biblical support is there for asking saints to pray for us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But he is alive in spirit -- and can hear us?

Apparently Abraham was aware of the Rich Man's doings on earth:
Luke 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And Hebrews 12 says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.
Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Revelations says that the souls of the martyrs are aware of the events on earth.
Revelation 6:8-10 (King James Version)

8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

So, I would say that, yes, they can hear us.

I'm happy to see that we agree on so much although I have focused on what we disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

NO... No one gave him a drink, and scripture instead shows the intention being denied for sending help to his brothers.. For the reason known to us, that we all hold stedfast in The Word being all..
(Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.)

NOTE: We have to see that a period of time after this teaching, it was Christ who raised from the dead. It is He that is the answer to the plea of help .. A much better chosen One, then what Lazarus would be..

The point is that the prayers were answered. Unexpectedly so, but that is how God works. How many times have I prayed and found my prayer answered in a manner which I didn't conceive? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Quote:

NO ... And in fact the scriptures go on to state that the disciple knew "It is possible... that the offence will come: but woe unto him through whom it comes!"

The offence they speak of is to make someone believe they can rely on anyone other then Christ..

I don't understand the connection that you are making. Jesus is saying that praying to Saints is an offense. He is warning against one brother offending another and leading him astray.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Do you deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is yet alive in the spirit?

That is not the point. It does no matter when scripture is clear that we are not to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

That is not the point. It does no matter when scripture is clear that we are not to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh.

Show me.

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.
I believe that the more people we can have pray for us the better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Show me.

Deut 18:9-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
NKJV

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.

You can believe it, but show us in scripture where it says that we are to speak to the dead.

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

Good! So you only speak to those humans who are alive in the flesh. That is good.

Tj3,
Correction I speak to those people who are alive.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Correction I speak to those people who are alive.
Fred

Scripture prohibits communication with those dead in the flesh (I wonder why certain folk don't see that reference to dead in the flesh :D )

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?
As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?
As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred

Like I've said before, our finite minds cannot grasp being outside of Time. After we die, we become part of Eternity, the Eternal Now. The Bible says that after death is the judgment, so all who have died have been judged already and have been reunited with their bodies ("I shall see God in mine own flesh." Job 19:26) and are enjoying heavenly bliss (or not).

Wondergirl,
Point well made.
Thanks,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

I'm happy to see that we agree on so much although I have focused on what we disagree.

The point is that the prayers were answered. Unexpectedly so, but that is how God works. How many times have I prayed and found my prayer answered in a manner which I didn't conceive? Do you know what I'm talking about?

No... the point being that God has ordained His plan from the beginning. God sent His grace in the begotten Son.. Christ the anointed, is the answer to all that confess their belief in Him. He can be the answer to prayer if we rest in Him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

I don't understand the connection that you are making. Jesus is saying that praying to Saints is an offense. He is warning against one brother offending another and leading him astray.

Scripture is saying that man will turn to their imagined ways, and woe to that man who brings any other way then Christ unto man. (Focus on the Will of God... and what he created to be the way.. what He has shown as the way) How did Christ pray? How did Christ tell us to pray?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.
I believe that the more people we can have pray for us the better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred the idea is flawed... because then you are putting faith in other men praying for you...

Rest is complete in Christ... faith in Him alone...

And I am not saying that praying for others is wrong.. it is good to show love unto brothers and sisters .. The convistion of love in the heart is evident in walking in Christ.

Christ will hear those that hear Him... Call on Me for I will answer.

But to hope upon many people praying for you, is the hope of love for yourself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

Charming to the living spirits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Like I've said before, our finite minds cannot grasp being outside of Time. After we die, we become part of Eternity, the Eternal Now. The Bible says that after death is the judgment, so all who have died have been judged already and have been reunited with their bodies ("I shall see God in mine own flesh." Job 19:26) and are enjoying heavenly bliss (or not).

Bodies? worms destroy.. Reunited? Nope...

I read where it says your inner most mind... embracing me (heart =flesh/ mind= inner most/ soul=spitit ME)

Job 19:26-27 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh=(all living) shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins=(inner most mind) be consumed=(finished) within=(enbracing) me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

No... the point being that God has ordained His plan from the beginning. God sent His grace in the begotten Son.. Christ the anointed, is the answer to all that confess their belief in Him. He can be the answer to prayer if we rest in Him.

Scripture is saying that man will turn to their imagined ways, and woe to that man who brings any other way then Christ unto man. (Focus on the Will of God... and what he created to be the way.. what He has shown as the way) How did Christ pray? How did Christ tell us to pray?

Our difference then, seems to stem on how closely we believe Christ associates us with Himself.

Matthew 25 (King James Version)

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

We see that Saul persecuted the Church:
1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Yet Jesus did not say, "Saul, why do you persecute my Church" nor "why do you persecute them", but:

Acts 9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Therefore we believe what the Scripture teaches:
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Therefore St. Paul can point to himself and say:
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Our difference then, seems to stem on how closely we believe Christ associates us with Himself.

Perhaps you are right with this conclusion. Do we both believe in the unity or joining of Christ in us?

In the confess faith in belief of the Son of God?

The SON that walked in His Father and who the Father dwelled in HIM?

The child that through baptism, walks in Christ, and Christ dwells within him and her.

Done through the HOLY SPIRIT that is here with me and in me.. where I rest in holding stedfast as conviction in my heart, mind and soul. Under the hand of God's strength and will, in all that He created me to be.

Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

~Compassion of heart, Love for God as a child of God

1 Peter 6:14-15-16 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Perhaps you are right with this conclusion. Do we both believe in the unity or joining of Christ in us?
....~Compassion of heart, Love for God as a child of God

In the end, we must all follow our conscience. If it violates your conscience to pray to God through the intercession of a saint. By all means, don't do so.

As for me, I believe that a Saint's prayer is more efficacious than mine. I believe that Mother Mary's prayers are infinitely more efficacious than mine. Therefore, I will have recourse to the family which God gave me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

In the end, we must all follow our conscience.

Scripture says the conscience mind can be defiled.. My conviction of heart follows Christ Jesus who dwells in me, and I in HIM. Baptized in confession of HIM... HIS worthyness... HIS righteosuness.... that shows the way.

Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Hebrew 6:19-20 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

As for me, I believe that a Saint's prayer is more efficacious than mine. I believe that Mother Mary's prayers are infinitely more efficacious than mine. Therefore, I will have recourse to the family which God gave me.

Just one question more.. you see I do not feel others can save you...there is no recourse in your own accountability of faith..

man has come up with recourse by purgatory as well.

Where does the assuredness of Christ step in?

Is this more concluded in doubt that has caused a need for the recourse?

If Christ dwells in you, and you in HIM by the unity in baptism? do you think He would leave you outside the veil?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Just one question more.. you see I do not feel others can save you...

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Quote:

there is no recourse in your own accountability of faith..

We don't save anyone ourselves. But in leading them to Christ, we help them be saved:

1 Corinthians 7:16
For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Quote:

man has come up with recourse by purgatory as well.

Not man but the mercy of God:
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Quote:

Where does the assuredness of Christ step in?

We trust in man because we trust in Christ who gave man authority to forgive sin:
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Quote:

Is this more concluded in doubt that has caused a need for the recourse?

It is concluded in His wisdom which we obey. We don't have recourse to our own interpretations but to the Word of God which was given unto Holy Men, first to preach and teach and then to write:

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Quote:

If Christ dwells in you, and you in HIM by the unity in baptism? do you think He would leave you outside the veil?

Even the Apostles asked for our prayers.

Romans 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Did they think they were left outside the veil? Obviously not. But God gave us an economy of Love. Wherein we all care for each other and pray for each other, whether we be alive in the flesh or in the Spirit.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Why else are we surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. That they might assist spiritually in every way possible. Much more then if we beseech their assistance.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?

I do not believe that those who heaven who died saved have living bodies opf flesh in heaven, no.

Do you?

Quote:

As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred

Jesus is God - do you see a difference there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I do not believe that those who heaven who died saved have living bodies opf flesh in heaven, no.

Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

Good question. I believe Scripture reveals they are alive and aware. But I await Tom's reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

It matters because God said it matters.

Is there anyone here who thinks that their authority exceeds God's authority and thus is willing to say that God's condemnation of speaking to those dead in the flesh is not important?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

It matters because God said it matters.

Is there anyone here who thinks that their authority exceeds God's authority and thus is willing to say that God's condemnation of speaking to those dead in the flesh is not important?

Where is the condemnation you speak of?

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Where is the condemnation you speak of?

I already posted the quote from scripture once (see post #165), and it was posted in response to you at your previous request.

Did you not read it?

Tj3,
Please post it again.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Please post it again.
Fred

Go to post 165.

Thanks Tom
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Thanks Tom
Fred

You're welcome

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Deut 18:9-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
NKJV

This condemns satanism and witchcraft.

This does not condemn prayer to Saints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

This condemns satanism and witchcraft.

This does not condemn prayer to Saints.

I note your careful wording avoiding the fact that it condemns ALL communication with those who are dead in the flesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

De Maria

Then we would agree that love for God, and love for others, (that includes us) we speak in charity to cover sin.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ.

1 Peter 4:5-6-7 Who shall give account to HIM that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Then we would agree that love for God, and love for others, (that includes us) we speak in charity to cover sin.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ.

1 Peter 4:5-6-7 Who shall give account to HIM that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Amen!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I note your careful wording avoiding the fact that it condemns ALL communication with those who are dead in the flesh.

I do not pray to the saints in heaven, but believe De Maria is correct about this particular verse, that it does not forbid that practice. It forbids black magic and sorcery, but that is not what prayer to the saints is.

Now if a verse said, do not pray to the saints in heaven because they are otherwise employed or because they are asleep until the Last Day, okay then. But this particular verse has nothing to do with saints in heaven.

Wondergirl.
Both you and De Maria are right about that.
It is a big twist of scripture in attempt to interpret that verse in saying something it does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred