[De Maria]

But he is alive in spirit -- and can hear us?

Apparently Abraham was aware of the Rich Man's doings on earth:
Luke 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And Hebrews 12 says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.
Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Revelations says that the souls of the martyrs are aware of the events on earth.
Revelation 6:8-10 (King James Version)

8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

So, I would say that, yes, they can hear us.

[De Maria]

I'm happy to see that we agree on so much although I have focused on what we disagree.

NO... No one gave him a drink, and scripture instead shows the intention being denied for sending help to his brothers.. For the reason known to us, that we all hold stedfast in The Word being all..
(Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.)

NOTE: We have to see that a period of time after this teaching, it was Christ who raised from the dead. It is He that is the answer to the plea of help .. A much better chosen One, then what Lazarus would be..

The point is that the prayers were answered. Unexpectedly so, but that is how God works. How many times have I prayed and found my prayer answered in a manner which I didn't conceive? Do you know what I'm talking about?

NO ... And in fact the scriptures go on to state that the disciple knew "It is possible... that the offence will come: but woe unto him through whom it comes!"

The offence they speak of is to make someone believe they can rely on anyone other then Christ..

I don't understand the connection that you are making. Jesus is saying that praying to Saints is an offense. He is warning against one brother offending another and leading him astray.

[Tj3]

Do you deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is yet alive in the spirit?

That is not the point. It does no matter when scripture is clear that we are not to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh.

[De Maria]

That is not the point. It does no matter when scripture is clear that we are not to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh.

Show me.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.
I believe that the more people we can have pray for us the better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Show me.

Deut 18:9-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
NKJV

[Tj3]

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.

You can believe it, but show us in scripture where it says that we are to speak to the dead.

[arcura]

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

Good! So you only speak to those humans who are alive in the flesh. That is good.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Correction I speak to those people who are alive.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Correction I speak to those people who are alive.
Fred

Scripture prohibits communication with those dead in the flesh (I wonder why certain folk don't see that reference to dead in the flesh :D )

[arcura]

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?
As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?
As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred

Like I've said before, our finite minds cannot grasp being outside of Time. After we die, we become part of Eternity, the Eternal Now. The Bible says that after death is the judgment, so all who have died have been judged already and have been reunited with their bodies ("I shall see God in mine own flesh." Job 19:26) and are enjoying heavenly bliss (or not).

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Point well made.
Thanks,
Fred

[sndbay]

I'm happy to see that we agree on so much although I have focused on what we disagree.

The point is that the prayers were answered. Unexpectedly so, but that is how God works. How many times have I prayed and found my prayer answered in a manner which I didn't conceive? Do you know what I'm talking about?

No... the point being that God has ordained His plan from the beginning. God sent His grace in the begotten Son.. Christ the anointed, is the answer to all that confess their belief in Him. He can be the answer to prayer if we rest in Him.

I don't understand the connection that you are making. Jesus is saying that praying to Saints is an offense. He is warning against one brother offending another and leading him astray.

Scripture is saying that man will turn to their imagined ways, and woe to that man who brings any other way then Christ unto man. (Focus on the Will of God... and what he created to be the way.. what He has shown as the way) How did Christ pray? How did Christ tell us to pray?

[sndbay]

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.
I believe that the more people we can have pray for us the better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred the idea is flawed... because then you are putting faith in other men praying for you...

Rest is complete in Christ... faith in Him alone...


And I am not saying that praying for others is wrong.. it is good to show love unto brothers and sisters .. The convistion of love in the heart is evident in walking in Christ.

Christ will hear those that hear Him... Call on Me for I will answer.

But to hope upon many people praying for you, is the hope of love for yourself...

[sndbay]

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

Charming to the living spirits?

[sndbay]

Like I've said before, our finite minds cannot grasp being outside of Time. After we die, we become part of Eternity, the Eternal Now. The Bible says that after death is the judgment, so all who have died have been judged already and have been reunited with their bodies ("I shall see God in mine own flesh." Job 19:26) and are enjoying heavenly bliss (or not).

Bodies? worms destroy.. Reunited? Nope...

I read where it says your inner most mind... embracing me (heart =flesh/ mind= inner most/ soul=spitit ME)

Job 19:26-27 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh=(all living) shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins=(inner most mind) be consumed=(finished) within=(enbracing) me.

[De Maria]

No... the point being that God has ordained His plan from the beginning. God sent His grace in the begotten Son.. Christ the anointed, is the answer to all that confess their belief in Him. He can be the answer to prayer if we rest in Him.

Scripture is saying that man will turn to their imagined ways, and woe to that man who brings any other way then Christ unto man. (Focus on the Will of God... and what he created to be the way.. what He has shown as the way) How did Christ pray? How did Christ tell us to pray?

Our difference then, seems to stem on how closely we believe Christ associates us with Himself.

Matthew 25 (King James Version)

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

We see that Saul persecuted the Church:
1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Yet Jesus did not say, "Saul, why do you persecute my Church" nor "why do you persecute them", but:

Acts 9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Therefore we believe what the Scripture teaches:
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Therefore St. Paul can point to himself and say:
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

[sndbay]

Our difference then, seems to stem on how closely we believe Christ associates us with Himself.

Perhaps you are right with this conclusion. Do we both believe in the unity or joining of Christ in us?

In the confess faith in belief of the Son of God?

The SON that walked in His Father and who the Father dwelled in HIM?

The child that through baptism, walks in Christ, and Christ dwells within him and her.

Done through the HOLY SPIRIT that is here with me and in me.. where I rest in holding stedfast as conviction in my heart, mind and soul. Under the hand of God's strength and will, in all that He created me to be.


Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord


Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



~Compassion of heart, Love for God as a child of God



1 Peter 6:14-15-16 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.