We German Lutherans love our beer when we play euchre or pinochle. Hmmm, that reminds me... gotta put a few into the 'frig for later. (Just don't ask me to dance... verboten, or at least used to be.)Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
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We German Lutherans love our beer when we play euchre or pinochle. Hmmm, that reminds me... gotta put a few into the 'frig for later. (Just don't ask me to dance... verboten, or at least used to be.)Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
Come on Rick you said this earlier "As for the idea of what we call "purgatory" being insulting: That comment is gratuitous at best. Scripture does not discount it but instead hints at it (like Scripture does about so many things)."Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
All I am asking is a simple where do you find this sort of thing even hinted at in the Bible?
Euchre? You play Euchre?
DOG-GONE! I didn't know people in Illinois know Euchre.
And I have a little Deutsch too:
Ich kann Euchre spielen und kann kaltes Bier die ganze Nacht trinken!
http://www.lunarforums.com/Smileys/default/beer.gif
:p:p
Read my first reply in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by don
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Let me offer a few lines more of (1 John) that speaks further on this.. This first verse defines being perfected in love for God. That those who keep His Word are seen with passion and love towards God. Those that believe in walking in Christ, and being holy has he is holy.
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, {{{{in him verily is the love of God perfected}}}} hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
2:20 of 1 John references that those which are God's children have the Holy Spirit anointing which is smeared on them. (1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.)
1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
It plays itself out His Way.. Life with God or death by satan.. Lay down your ways, and follow Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
( Matthew 10:15) (Luke 18:17)
Take your hand and place it into Gods hand... Doing the will of God the Father, as Christ has shown the way..
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Passion and Love for God
From the beginning shown by God, the love and hope that we hold will rest upon Christ. It is the greatness in fellowship found in Christian faith, and the establish ways we can follow in Christ by His fulfillment of The Word of God. In evidence of Christ doing the Will of His Father, we too much do the Will of God. We must do what is pleasing in God's eye, in obedience to the act in righteousness. Confess and repent our iniquity, and transgressions in all our sin unto God. Confess and turn from contempt and foolish ways. For Christ showed us the Way... Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32) Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9) Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11) Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)
Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
~as a child of God I shall not fall away.... for God is with me
German Lutherans who love Euchre live everywhere. My mom is one and is from Idaho. My dad is one and was from Illinois. Big Euchre area is in western NY where we used to live, NW of Rochester. My dates with farm boys always included Euchre (or checking out the cornfields at midnight).Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
You're a great Christian, so let me ask a real stupid question, just humor me. Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
JoeT
That sounds very arminian - but regardless, that is a different topic and has nothing to do with the claims that somehow we can pay the rpice in part for our own sins by suffering in purgatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Titus 2:11-14Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
NKJV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
"that he might redeem us from all iniquity and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable."
Gee, seems you made a case for purgatory.
Don't see how. It see that He does the cleansing - we don't cleanse ourselves through suffering.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Not at all. The cleansing is by Jesus so God will find us acceptable again.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Heb. 1:3 And [Jesus] is the radiance of [God's] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
sndbay,
Believe as you want to but the existence of Purgatory is also indicated in Holy Scripture as I have alread posted here.
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You claim that purgatory is in scripture has been refuted.
Tj3,
That is just your opinion.
My opinion is the opposite of that.
I say no you have not.
You attempted to but faild.
Fred
In the prayer thread, you said Christian saints on earth (the Bible calls us that) pray for each other. If we are saints on earth, what need have we of purgatory?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Yes cleansing (purging of sin) is accomplished by Jesus in a state of being, i.e. purgatory. Such a state of being can occur at anytime, it doesn't always need to be in some spiritual afterworld.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I don't get it; you're saying the words in the verses at the same time denying the meaning.
Since you're a Saint on Earth, jumor me and answer thisl stupid question. Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn't take much soul searching for an answer; respond, 'yes' or 'no'.
JoeT
Joe,
I answer that for myself.
NO!!
I have never been that clean and when I die I hope I'll be cleaner than I am now but I still will not be perfectly clean for my human tendency to sin will still remain.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Heb 1:3-4Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV
Note that He Himself purged our sins (past tense) and then sat down at the right hand of the Father. When did He sit down?
Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
NKJV
He sat down when He sacrificed Himself on the cross. That was when the purging took place.
Yes. Jesus has cleansed me from all unrighteousness in the eyes of His Father. The price for my sin has been paid once and for all. It is a gift to me and entitles me to heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Tj3,
The forgiveness of sins is one thing, the cleansing of our human tendency to sin in another.
That one is taken care of in Purgatory.
You'll see that when your there.
Jesus did the cleansing part already too.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Really? Where is the scriptural support for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Note what scripture says:
Heb 10:13-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV
How do you think that you can improve upon the perfection of Jesus?
As with Paul, I will never see purgatory. I will be present with the Lord:Quote:
That one is taken care of in Purgatory.
You'll see that when your there.
2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV
Somehow you do not see what it is that God tells you.. and I pray in love for all mankind, that if it is God's will, all might see His Way, and His will to be doneQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I believe, and I am thankful unto God for being born again. And by God hand God has increased and granted this to me. And I have received a soul purified in desire to obeying the truth through the Holy Spirit that guides me.. I follow and trust The Word of God. I follow by no other name, then as a child of God. I confess in prayer, with love and faith unseen, knowing that God is with me. I confess by a heart of conviction, in the desire to live and be all that God created me to be. Knowing that it is His hand of strength, and His will is to be done..
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
And I say before the world confess love of God and not things of this world. Confess the thankfulness in all that Our Father's love has given. Confess Christ Jesus as the begotten Son of God, and walk in Him.
Moreover confess Christ among men, and His ways. (Matthew 10:32)
Confess that God raised Christ from the dead (Romans 10:9)
Confess that Christ is Lord in the glory of God the Father (Phl 2:11)
Confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelled in Him and he in God (1 John 4:15)
This is the Truth!
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Amen Amen
I Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Are you born again and ready to obey God through the Holy Spirit?
But you didn't answer the question; "Are you perfect in every way; not just perfect, rather are you immaculate, spotless, sinless, without fault, in every way? Simple question, it doesn’t take much soul searching for an answer; respond, ‘yes’ or ‘no’"Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
sndbay,
Yes I am, but I still sin from time to time as I think everyone does.
It is our human nature of this world.
It is our tendency to sin that must be purified.
Fred
Then you're not a sinner like the rest of us? You're a Saint? Why do I have a hard time believing this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Those who are saved through Christ (i.e. we are saints), though we have sinned, have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us:
Rom 4:20-25
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV
As a result, it is not our righteousness which purifies and cleanses us, but it is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. As a result, there is nothing more that could be done to further purify us.
Joe,
I also have a hard time believing that.
The bible says we are all sinners.
That I believe.
Fred
From gotquestions.org --Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The word saint comes from the Greek word "hagios" which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." ... Scripturally speaking, the saints are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints…and at the same time are called to be saints. 1 Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly, “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the Biblical description and calling of the saints....In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint.
Wondergirl
Yes but that still did not answer the question if you were a sinner and perfectly clean.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Your playing with words, come on now, I know you don't think you're sinless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I'll answer it. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God, through the blood shed on my behalf on the cross, and as a result, I have the righteousness of Christ imputed to me - therefore I am perfectly clean, because the righteousness of Christ is perfect righteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The entire point of purgatory is to purify as Priests of Moses’ Tabernacle cleansed themselves and their sacrifices.
“In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity. Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected.” Pope John Paul II
JoeT
However, the point that we are making is that scripture says that Jesus did that on the cross, and does not support the doctrine of purgatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Ok, I know people will flip about this,but wouldn't Jessus be a sinner? On account he willingly gave his life, commite suicide, for our sins?
Really, he killed himself, in direstly of course, but it's no different then some one walking in front of a bus.
Isn't suicide "wrong" or a "sin"? Just wanted to know.
No, he did not commit suicide. He was willing to die but did not take His own life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
A better analogy would be of a man volunteering to be a soldier in a war, knowing that he faces a likelihood of death, or someone who dies protecting their family.Quote:
Really, he killed himself, in direstly of course, but it's no different then some one walking in front of a bus.
Yes, He PAID the price. And he will cleanse the soul in purgatory so that no sin enters heaven and so that we can be presented to the Father flawless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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