But you do Fred. You claim that it has something to do with communicating with the dead, but the context is a rebuttal of the Sadduccees claim that there is no resurrection.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
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But you do Fred. You claim that it has something to do with communicating with the dead, but the context is a rebuttal of the Sadduccees claim that there is no resurrection.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
I know what was said.
See you just did it again.
Please quit.
Fred
Yes, Fred, I told the truth again.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
1. Praying to dead people.
It is the Catholic view that there are those who have died the death of the body and have gone on to the eternal life promised in the Gospel (Mt.10.17-22, 19.29, 25.46; Mk.10.30; Lk.10.25-30,18.18-30; Jn.3.15-16). Catholics believe that God has kept his promise and that these people are indeed alive. And Scripture gives evidence of this: We see Lazarus alive by Abraham's side (Lk.16.23); at the transfiguration we see Moses and Elijah alive beside Jesus. (Mt.17.3); we see the presbyters worshipping God at Rev.4.10. Catholics believe that those who have been called home to God do a lot of communicating, praying and worshiping, and singing and stuff like that. We are told that Jesus opened the gates to Heaven and that "The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised" (Mt.27.52). Moreover, as Fred has pointed out, Catholics believe Jesus when he said "Now he is a God not of the dead, but of the living, for to him all of them are alive " (Lk.20.38).
The following “proof-text” has been adduced to show that communication with the dead is prohibited. Of course, this presumes that the saints are dead, which as I have just shown, they are not. They are living the eternal life promised in the Gospel. But, for the sake of argument, let’s just take a closer look at Dt.18.10-14. Here’s what has been offered above:
Deut 18:10-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.
NKJV
Does this prohibit prayer to saints? A careful reading shows that that isn’t at all what is being talked about here. Instead, what is prohibited is what we would today call the occult: Magic, sorcery, divination, summoning the dead. I don’t know any Catholic who thinks that asking for the intercession (i.e. the intercessory prayer) of the saints is summoning the dead. No, they’re just asking those who are close to God to pray for them. And that’s a good thing. The things that the above passage prohibits are pretty far from anything that Catholics and others who pray to the saints engage in. And Christians have been doing this since the earliest days of the faith, as anyone who has visited the catacombs would know. In fact, the earliest Christian graffiti to have survived calls for prayer to the saints and martyrs.
2. There is only one mediator
It has been pointed out that Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim.2.5; Heb.8.6, 9.15, 12.24). And this is something no Catholic would deny, unless that Catholic is a heretic. Scripture and Tradition are clear on this point. But does this show that we are to communicate ONLY with God? Certainly 1Tim.2 doesn’t say that. It says that there is only one mediator, but this isn’t something that Catholics deny. Scripture doesn’t caution us against seeking the intercessory prayers of others; in fact, it encourages us to seek the intercession of others: “I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for everyone” (1Tim.2.1). In v.4 we read that this conduces to salvation and knowledge of the truth.
Is there some special reason to think that Christians in heaven do not pray? Or that they do not or cannot pray for others? Scripture tells us that Christ is the only mediator, but it clearly doesn’t regard prayer for others as in any way at odds with that fact.
Heb.8.6 tells us that Jesus’s ministry excels that of the high priests; Heb.9.15 and 12.24 tell us that he is the mediator of a New Covenant. Here again we find nothing at odds with what I have said above, nor with the practice of seeking the intercession of the saints in heaven. We know that Christ permits others to participate in his ministry. Why suppose that this excludes those whom he has called home to him?
Catholics believe that Mt.25.21 speaks to those Christians who have entered the Kingdom of Heaven: The servant who enters into the joy of his master is “put in charge of many things”.
3. All Christians are saints
It has been pointed out that all living Christians are saints. Catholics agree: Every member of the Body of Christ is a saint.
But notice that Paul himself uses the word saint (ho hagios) in such a way as to distinguish between the faithful, all of whom are said to be saints (hoi hagioi) and others who are also said to be saints (again, hoi hagioi) in some special sense. We see this at, for instance, Acts 9.32 and again at Col.1.2 (“to the saints and faithful brothers”) . The term is also used with some frequency in the OT, at a time when there were no Christians. This is to say that the term “saint” can be applied equally to those who are alive in the flesh and to those who have been gathered into heaven. The faithful are alive in God and they are with us, whether they are beside us in the pews or in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Though interesting, I'd rather discussing the Biblical perspective rather than a denominational interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
And praying(talking to) the dead is summoning. There is nothing else that matters on this topic once one has demonstrated that scripture prohibits communication with the dead.Quote:
Deut 18:10-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.
NKJV
Does this prohibit prayer to saints? A careful reading shows that that isn’t at all what is being talked about here. Instead, what is prohibited is what we would today call the occult: Magic, sorcery, divination, summoning the dead.
1. The saints aren't dead. They enjoy the eternal life promised to them by Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
2. Dt. Prohibits sorcery and the occult (summoning the dead here refers to necromancy). Notice it is also part of the Law which has been superceded. So (a) talking to saints isn't talking to the dead, (b) Dt. Doesn't prohibit what Catholics and others do when they pray to saints, and (c) the Mosaic Law isn't binding (or do you adhere to the whole of the Law? Didn't think so).
As you should know, Akoue, the word in the original Hebrew refers to those who have died in the flesh, which is true of these persons whether saved or unsaved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Deuteronomy makes no distinction between death of the flesh and eternal life in Christ, nor does it make a distinction between saved and unsaved. So your point is, at best, anachronistic.
But really it's just not to the point. Even if we set the anachronism aside, it is still (a) talking about necromancy (in fact lots of translations of Dt.18.11 render the phrase this way, i.e. "necromancy") and (b) it is part of the OT Mosaic Law which is no longer binding.
Now people who pray to saints (a) aren't engaging in necromancy and (b) aren't bound by the Mosaic Law. They are asking others to pray for them, something Christians are encouraged to do. Moreover, they are praying to those who have eternal life and are even now with God in the Kingdom of Heaven. These considerations, together with those offered in my earlier post (#44), show that there is nothing at all wrong with praying to saints. If, however, someone feels uncomfortable doing so that's fine. I certainly don't think anyone should feel obligated to pray to saints. But there isn't anything wrong with it.
Some pray to saints for what purpose?
Have you ever asked another to pray for you? Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Where is it scripturally correct to pray through or to anybody except God? I find no where in my Bible where it tells me to pray to anybody except God the father. I think you are suggesting heresy with your comments.
Then you are confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Until very recently, the word "pray" in English meant to ask or to petition another--as you'd know if you ever read Shakespeare or nineteenth century English novels. Only since the early twentieth century has the word "pray" come to be used exclusively for petitions addressed to God. When Catholics and others pray to saints, they are doing what you do when you ask (pray, in the now archaic sense) someone to pray to God for you.
The Bible prohibits worship of anyone other than God. Nowhere does it prohibit petitioning (asking, praying) others to offer intercessory prayers on one's behalf. As I have shown, this is in fact encouraged by Scripture.
Let's deal with you last comment first - this makes no distinction between saved and unsaved - that you got right. There is no distinction anywhere in scripture with respect to speaking with the dead as to whether they are saved and unsaved, and thus taking that passage in the NT about God being God of the living (which was taken entirely out of context) has no bearing on this question whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Necromancy comes from two words, the first meaning "dead tissue", in other words speaking of the dead in the flesh, and mancer referring to divination, a term used to call up the dead or other being from the spirit world. Thus it is referring to conjuring up those who are dead in the flesh. Translators agree.Quote:
But really it's just not to the point. Even if we set the anachronism aside, it is still (a) talking about necromancy (in fact lots of translations of Dt.18.11 render the phrase this way, i.e. "necromancy") and (b) it is part of the OT Mosaic Law which is no longer binding.
We have one example in scripture where someone tried speaking to the dead and God condemned the act.
As for (a), yes they are by the definition of the term; and (b) it is interesting that you simply and completely toss out not just Mosaic law but the intent of the law. Do you also believe that lying, cheating, adultery are okay because they are part of Mosaic law? I hope not. The fact is that though Christians are not bound by the law, the law represents God's standard for us. Jesus was clear that he was not getting rid of the law:Quote:
Now people who pray to saints (a) aren't engaging in necromancy and (b) aren't bound by the Mosaic Law.
Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV
So, to say that because Christians are no longer under the law, that we can therefore be law-less is not scriptural.
Many words in English and other languages carry multiple meanings - that does not mean that we can mix the meanings to apply to situations which are out of context. Unless of course, you think that a bundle of stick (a fag) is the same thing as a cigarette (a fag). I am sure that yo9u can think of numerous examples of similar multiple meaning words that used even today in everyday speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
So when someone is petitioning the judge in the courtroom and using the word "pray" to mean "petition", it does not mean the same thing as praying to the dead.
As shown it does prohibit any communication between those alive in the flesh and those dead in the flesh.Quote:
Nowhere does it prohibit petitioning (asking, praying) others to offer intercessory prayers on one's behalf.
Show us anyplace where praying to the dead is encouraged by scripture.Quote:
As I have shown, this is in fact encouraged by Scripture.
Akoue,
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your use of holy Scripture to demonstrate the points you so well made.
Yes indeed, the Saints in heaven are not dead which includes many of those from the Old Testament such as Jacob, Moses and Elijah.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Do we really know the state of those who are in heaven (if they are)? I've heard both body and soul sleep until Judgment Day. I've also heard that one immediately enters heaven after death. If someone on earth prays to a deceased relative who supposedly died in Christ, what can that relative do for the earthbound person? And if that relative is not in heaven, then what?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Another important question is, if God can hear our prayers, then what can a mere person do for us that God cannot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Woundergirl,
Of course the saints in heaven are not dead or they would not be in heaven.
On this thread Scripture has been quoted that shows that some people who have passed this life not dead and are in heaven.
Also quoted were Jesus words to that effect,
I believe that if you prayed to a relative who has passed away and who did indeed make it to heaven that person is a heavenly saint and can pray to God for you.
The more people, in the flesh or in heaven, you have praying for you the better.
I have often asked all the saints in heaven to pray for me to the Lord our God.
In fact that request of the saints is a part of the daily Mass in Catholic Churches world wide.
I praise God that He has saints in heaven for they are God's human success story.
That is that many people (Now heavenly saints) were convince about the truth of God and followed His will and thus made it to heaven.
I image that like a very good artist displaying his good works for all to see.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Why would he or she pray for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Why is that important? I can communicate with God just fine on my own.Quote:
The more people, in the flesh or in heaven, you have praying for you the better.
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Ignoring the Biblical prohibition against praying to the dead for a moment, why do you think that a mere human in human would enhance your prayer getting to God the Father? Does God need a "hearing aid"?
Wondergirl,
You asked about requesting a relative who had passed away to pray for you.
That is why I mentioned it.
Yes you can pray for yourself, but not as well as a more righteous person at the thone of God can pray for you.
Obviously the more people who pray for you the better as Jesus tells us in the parable of the magistrate.
The more God is prayed to about you the more effective those prayers will be.
Another example is in the bible that tells ALL of Jesus' followers to pray for each other.
I often pray for all here and all Christians. I'm sure that there are many people who do that for have seen and heard them doing so..
Peace and kindness,
Fred
What will I get when people in heaven pray for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Again, why? What will I get?Quote:
Obviously the more people who pray for you the better as Jesus tells us in the parable of the magistrate. The more God is prayed to about you the more effective those prayers will be.
Wodergirl,
You would get more attention to you with many other people praying for you.
You, being a Christian are a earthly saint.
I am a diabetic with all of the problems that go alone with that plus a lot of back pain.
So I ask others to pray for me for God to sustain, help and heal me.
So I ask you to pray for me. Will you please do so?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Exactly whose influence would exceed that of Jesus?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
John 16:26-28
26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
NKJV
And, if the prayers of another saint help, why would you not simply ask earthly saints to pray for you rather than violating the Biblical prohibition against speaking to the dead?
Tj3,
See the parable of the magistrate for that.
Jesus gives the answer there.
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I don't see how you interpret that to say that anyone has more influence than Jesus. Please explain.
Tj3,
Please do not assume or that I said that anyone has more influence than Jesus or twist what I say.The subject on this is that many others have influence than just one or that many prayers are more effective than just one.
NO ONE has more influence with the Father than does His Son and I'm sure that you KNEW that I believed that.
So why do you ask such things?
By the way I want to thank you for your efforts on Biblical evidence of the Trinity and I want to ask you if I can use the information you provided in your words the next time I hold a boble class on that subject.
I will give credit where credit is due on your job well done.
Fred
Yes, we can, each of us, communicate just fine with God on our own. And yet Scripture repeatedly encourages us to pray for each other, to seek the intercession of others (1Tim.2, which I quoted above, is explicit about that). So why? Why ask others to pray for us if we can petition God all on our own? Why does Scripture tell us to do so? Or perhaps more to the point, why do you seem to be puzzled about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Lk.20.38 sure looks relevant to me. Take a look at v.36: "Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection." Christ is preaching eternal life and the resurrection of the flesh to the scribes. If you think it has no bearing you're going to have to make a case for that, since it looks on point to me. The NT does make a distinction between saved and unsaved and the OT does not. That's why Lk.20 is relevant and Dt.18 isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The English word "necrotic" does refer to dead tissue, as you say. The Greek word "nekros" means dead. The Greek word "nekroo" means to make dead. But, in any case, asking the saints to pray for us isn't divination: It's asking the saints to pray for us. This is worlds away from fortune-telling (which is what necromancers did)--as I'm sure you know.Quote:
Necromancy comes from two words, the first meaning "dead tissue", in other words speaking of the dead in the flesh, and mancer referring to divination, a term used to call up the dead or other being from the spirit world. Thus it is referring to conjuring up those who are dead in the flesh. Translators agree.
Christ spoke to Lazarus when he raised him. Was Christ guilty of violating the Law at the Transfiguration when he was joined by Moses and Elijah? Nah, didn't think so.Quote:
We have one example in scripture where someone tried speaking to the dead and God condemned the act.
Hmm. So you don't shave your beard or trim your fore-locks? I've seen you claim many times that we are no longer bound by the Law.Quote:
As for (a), yes they are by the definition of the term; and (b) it is interesting that you simply and completely toss out not just Mosaic law but the intent of the law. Do you also believe that lying, cheating, adultery are okay because they are part of Mosaic law? I hope not. The fact is that though Christians are not bound by the law, the law represents God's standard for us. Jesus was clear that he was not getting rid of the law:
Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV
So, to say that because Christians are no longer under the law, that we can therefore be law-less is not scriptural.
The Law has been fulfilled by Christ, a point made repeatedly both by Paul and... ehem... by you, on these very boards.
But, in any case, those who fell asleep in the Lord aren't dead. They are more alive than we, since they have entered the Kingdom. If you wish to deny that Christ has conquered death, feel free. I'll stick with God's word.
(That last phrase sounds familiar. Wonder where I've heard it?)
It sure does. Those who pray to saints are asking them to pray for them. The same way you might ask a friend or family member to pray for you. Catholics don't pray to the dead because they don't believe the saints to be dead: They have eternal life with their Heavenly Father. Christ conquered death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Catholics don't pray to the dead. They pray to those who have eternal life with the Father. Why do you insist on denying that God keeps his promises?Quote:
Show us anyplace where praying to the dead is encouraged by scripture.
What do you "get" when people on earth pray for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Do you imagine that God refuses to hear the prayers of those whom he has called home to him? Do you believe that their worship is less meaningful than ours here on earth? (If anything, I'd bet that they pray even better than we do, though that's just a hunch.)
You said that the more people that we have praying rather than just Jesus as opur mediator with the Father would be more effective. I asked who would have more influence than Jesus and then you referenced that parable for the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
If that is not what you meant, then you should have clarified.
Then no one in heaven will influence God the father more than Jesus, so why violate the prohibition against communication with the dead?Quote:
NO ONE has more influence with the Father than does His Son and I'm sure that you KNEW that I believed that.
Yes, certainly you can.Quote:
By the way I want to thank you for your efforts on Biblical evidence of the Trinity and I want to ask you if I can use the information you provided in your words the next time I hold a boble class on that subject.
Show me where in that passage that it says that the unsaved are dead and the saved are alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
If you say that the unsaved are dead, then it sounds like you are promoting annihilationism.
So the word does make reference to dead in the flesh, thus that is what is referenced here. We are making progress.Quote:
The English word "necrotic" does refer to dead tissue, as you say. The Greek word "nekros" means dead. The Greek word "nekroo" means to make dead.
As you pointed out, it can also mean to summon, and you most certainly are hoping for them to hear you if you are praying to them, so you are indeed summoning them.Quote:
But, in any case, asking the saints to pray for us isn't divination: It's asking the saints to pray for us. This is worlds away from fortune-telling (which is what necromancers did)--as I'm sure you know.
Right - He raised Him from the dead and spoke to Him. The problem is?Quote:
Christ spoke to Lazarus when he raised him.
You mean when He was in His glorified state as God?Quote:
Was Christ guilty of violating the Law at the Transfiguration when he was joined by Moses and Elijah? Nah, didn't think so.
We are no longer under the law, meaning the letter of the law, but that does not mean that we are to be or can be law-less. We are not to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law which is written on our hearts, so that we do not follow the letter but the spirit:Quote:
Hmm. So you don't shave your beard or trim your fore-locks? I've seen you claim many times that we are no longer bound by the Law.
Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV
Now, how do you turn this around to say that you can completely toss out the prohibition against communication with the dead, or the 10 commandments, and live whatever way you wish?
Get thee to a dictionary!Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
When you petition a higher authority such as a judge, you do not pray to them. It is a much different situation. And never had any such situation exist where the judge in the courtroom or the city council was dead.
You have already conceded that Deut 18 in context speaks of those who are dead in flesh.Quote:
The same way you might ask a friend or family member to pray for you. Catholics don't pray to the dead because they don't believe the saints to be dead: They have eternal life with their Heavenly Father. Christ conquered death.
I've never said that sinners are annihilated, as opposed to being sent to hell. In fact, I've never come within a country mile of even addressing that subject. Are you confused about what annihilationism is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The unsaved go to hell. The saved go to heaven, i.e. eternal life with God.
What I've said about Dt.18.11 is that the prohibition against summoning the dead offered there is a prohibition against necromancy (occurring as it does alongside prohibitions against other sorts of occult practices). And, since asking the saints to offer intercessory prayers isn't necromancy, it doesn't speak to the present topic. Moreover, since the saints aren't dead but are living eternal life with their Creator, addressing them wouldn't count as communicating with the dead in any case.Quote:
So the word does make reference to dead in the flesh, thus that is what is referenced here. We are making progress.
As you pointed out, it can also mean to summon, and you most certainly are hoping for them to hear you if you are praying to them, so you are indeed summoning them.
He raised him from the dead by speaking to him. No problem for me.Quote:
Right - He raised Him from the dead and spoke to Him. The problem is?
I mean at the Transfiguration, when he was hanging out with a couple of dead guys--who clearly were still capable of communicating with the living since Christ hadn't been crucified yet.Quote:
You mean when He was in His glorified state as God?
So I am to infer that your beard and fore-locks must be really, really long? You keep kashrut as well? Too bad. Bacon is yummy.Quote:
We are no longer under the law, meaning the letter of the law, but that does not mean that we are to be or can be law-less. We are not to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law which is written on our hearts, so that we do not follow the letter but the spirit:
Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV
Now, how do you turn this around to say that you can completely toss out the prohibition against communication with the dead, or the 10 commandments, and live whatever way you wish?
I have no problem with the OT prohibition against the occult. I just think it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain-stem that asking the saints for intercessory prayers comes nowhere close to trafficking in the occult.
Pray tell, why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
See what I did? I just "prayed" to you... by, you know, asking you something.
It's a pity to see how little faith you have in God's promises.Quote:
When you petition a higher authority such as a judge, you do not pray to them. It is a much different situation. And never had any such situation exist where the judge in the courtroom or the city council was dead.
I have "conceded" that Dt.18 is off-topic.Quote:
You have already conceded that Deut 18 in context speaks of those who are dead in flesh.
Well then explain your position - that is what appears confused. If you say that God is the God of the living, and thus you use that to say that it is okay to ignore the Biblical prohibition against speaking to the dead, then what are you saying:Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
1) Are you saying that the unsaved are annihilated?
2) Are you saying that God is not God of the unsaved?
3) Are you saying that we can speak to the dead who are unsaved?
Right, which we already agreed speak to those dead in the flesh.Quote:
What I've said about Dt.18.11 is that the prohibition against summoning the dead offered there is a prohibition against necromancy (occurring as it does alongside prohibitions against other sorts of occult practices).
Are you confused about what "transfigured" means?Quote:
I mean at the Transfiguration, when he was hanging out with a couple of dead guys--who clearly were still capable of communicating with the living since Christ hadn't been crucified yet.
Ah, so edging into the abuse / ad hominems again.Quote:
I have no problem with the OT prohibition against the occult. I just think it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain-stem that asking the saints for intercessory prayers comes nowhere close to trafficking in the occult.
Because you seem to have your own version of the English m,anguage which disagrees with accepted version. Must be the "akoue dialect".Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
How come every time you are hit with hard questions, you need to get into personal abusive comments.Quote:
It's a pity to see how little faith you have in God's promises.
An avoidance approach I see.Quote:
I have "conceded" that Dt.18 is off-topic.
It just seems that my beloved father in heaven has far more interesting and important things to do in heaven than to look "down" to earth to check up on WG and any prayers she has offered to him (who then brings them to the Lord's attention). I've always thought of earth and heaven as two very separate realms, with heavenly (formerly earthly) residents' personal knowledge of our earthly comings and goings as totally apart from their existence, just as we have no personal knowledge of what's going on with heavenly beings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I guess I think that because here on earth we are caught in Time. Everything is linear. Everything has a beginning, middle, and end. In heaven there is no Time as we know it. It is always Now. I have gotten glimpses of that because of my cats who do not regret ripping up that upholstery yesterday nor do they fret and worry that I will run out of Fancy Feast and perhaps feed them some dreaded Nine Lives tomorrow. My cats live in the Now.
I believe that the joys of heaven and living always in the Now preclude worrying or thinking about the still earth-bound. It's a nice idea to think my father is concerned about me, but it comforts me so much more to know that he is doing "his Father's business" in a place where he always longed to go. People have told my mother, "Your husband is in heaven and is keeping an eye out for you," and she responds with, "I'm sure God has put him to work doing more important things than that. I'm guessing he's very busy being everything he was here on earth and more."
Am I against intercessory prayer here on earth? No, not at all. I daily pray for friends and relatives and as special requests, and am glad to know that others pray for me. I believe I have a rich prayer life with an almost continuous conversation with God. After all, prayer is practicing the presence of God, i.e. prayer not only is a quiet, sedentary, and mindful (and centering) occupation with folded hands and closed eyes but also has an active and dynamic quality in a life of service to others.
Non, nein, nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I don't think I could have made my position any more clear. Here it is in numbered propositions:
1. Scripture encourages intercessory prayer.
2. The saints enjoy the eternal life that was promised them and are alive with the Father.
3. The saints in heaven pray and worship.
4. We can ask the saints to offer intercessory prayers because they are alive with the Father.
5. There is nothing illicit about 4.
I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself so I'll let you have the last word.
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