[Tj3]

Tj3,
I do NOT take it out of context.
Please quit with your false accusations.
Fred

But you do Fred. You claim that it has something to do with communicating with the dead, but the context is a rebuttal of the Sadduccees claim that there is no resurrection.

[arcura]

Tj3,
I know what was said.
See you just did it again.
Please quit.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I know what was said.
See you just did it again.
Please quit.
Fred

Yes, Fred, I told the truth again.

[Akoue]

1. Praying to dead people.

It is the Catholic view that there are those who have died the death of the body and have gone on to the eternal life promised in the Gospel (Mt.10.17-22, 19.29, 25.46; Mk.10.30; Lk.10.25-30,18.18-30; Jn.3.15-16). Catholics believe that God has kept his promise and that these people are indeed alive. And Scripture gives evidence of this: We see Lazarus alive by Abraham's side (Lk.16.23); at the transfiguration we see Moses and Elijah alive beside Jesus. (Mt.17.3); we see the presbyters worshipping God at Rev.4.10. Catholics believe that those who have been called home to God do a lot of communicating, praying and worshiping, and singing and stuff like that. We are told that Jesus opened the gates to Heaven and that "The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised" (Mt.27.52). Moreover, as Fred has pointed out, Catholics believe Jesus when he said "Now he is a God not of the dead, but of the living, for to him all of them are alive " (Lk.20.38).

The following “proof-text” has been adduced to show that communication with the dead is prohibited. Of course, this presumes that the saints are dead, which as I have just shown, they are not. They are living the eternal life promised in the Gospel. But, for the sake of argument, let’s just take a closer look at Dt.18.10-14. Here’s what has been offered above:

Deut 18:10-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.
NKJV

Does this prohibit prayer to saints? A careful reading shows that that isn’t at all what is being talked about here. Instead, what is prohibited is what we would today call the occult: Magic, sorcery, divination, summoning the dead. I don’t know any Catholic who thinks that asking for the intercession (i.e. the intercessory prayer) of the saints is summoning the dead. No, they’re just asking those who are close to God to pray for them. And that’s a good thing. The things that the above passage prohibits are pretty far from anything that Catholics and others who pray to the saints engage in. And Christians have been doing this since the earliest days of the faith, as anyone who has visited the catacombs would know. In fact, the earliest Christian graffiti to have survived calls for prayer to the saints and martyrs.

2. There is only one mediator
It has been pointed out that Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim.2.5; Heb.8.6, 9.15, 12.24). And this is something no Catholic would deny, unless that Catholic is a heretic. Scripture and Tradition are clear on this point. But does this show that we are to communicate ONLY with God? Certainly 1Tim.2 doesn’t say that. It says that there is only one mediator, but this isn’t something that Catholics deny. Scripture doesn’t caution us against seeking the intercessory prayers of others; in fact, it encourages us to seek the intercession of others: “I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for everyone” (1Tim.2.1). In v.4 we read that this conduces to salvation and knowledge of the truth.

Is there some special reason to think that Christians in heaven do not pray? Or that they do not or cannot pray for others? Scripture tells us that Christ is the only mediator, but it clearly doesn’t regard prayer for others as in any way at odds with that fact.

Heb.8.6 tells us that Jesus’s ministry excels that of the high priests; Heb.9.15 and 12.24 tell us that he is the mediator of a New Covenant. Here again we find nothing at odds with what I have said above, nor with the practice of seeking the intercession of the saints in heaven. We know that Christ permits others to participate in his ministry. Why suppose that this excludes those whom he has called home to him?

Catholics believe that Mt.25.21 speaks to those Christians who have entered the Kingdom of Heaven: The servant who enters into the joy of his master is “put in charge of many things”.

3. All Christians are saints
It has been pointed out that all living Christians are saints. Catholics agree: Every member of the Body of Christ is a saint.

But notice that Paul himself uses the word saint (ho hagios) in such a way as to distinguish between the faithful, all of whom are said to be saints (hoi hagioi) and others who are also said to be saints (again, hoi hagioi) in some special sense. We see this at, for instance, Acts 9.32 and again at Col.1.2 (“to the saints and faithful brothers”) . The term is also used with some frequency in the OT, at a time when there were no Christians. This is to say that the term “saint” can be applied equally to those who are alive in the flesh and to those who have been gathered into heaven. The faithful are alive in God and they are with us, whether they are beside us in the pews or in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Tj3]

It is the Catholic view...

Though interesting, I'd rather discussing the Biblical perspective rather than a denominational interpretation.

Deut 18:10-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.
NKJV

Does this prohibit prayer to saints? A careful reading shows that that isn’t at all what is being talked about here. Instead, what is prohibited is what we would today call the occult: Magic, sorcery, divination, summoning the dead.

And praying(talking to) the dead is summoning. There is nothing else that matters on this topic once one has demonstrated that scripture prohibits communication with the dead.

[Akoue]

And praying(talking to) the dead is summoning. There is nothing else that matters on this topic once one has demonstrated that scripture prohibits communication with the dead.

1. The saints aren't dead. They enjoy the eternal life promised to them by Christ.
2. Dt. Prohibits sorcery and the occult (summoning the dead here refers to necromancy). Notice it is also part of the Law which has been superceded. So (a) talking to saints isn't talking to the dead, (b) Dt. Doesn't prohibit what Catholics and others do when they pray to saints, and (c) the Mosaic Law isn't binding (or do you adhere to the whole of the Law? Didn't think so).

[Tj3]

1. The saints aren't dead. They enjoy the eternal life promised to them by Christ.

As you should know, Akoue, the word in the original Hebrew refers to those who have died in the flesh, which is true of these persons whether saved or unsaved.

[Akoue]

Deuteronomy makes no distinction between death of the flesh and eternal life in Christ, nor does it make a distinction between saved and unsaved. So your point is, at best, anachronistic.

But really it's just not to the point. Even if we set the anachronism aside, it is still (a) talking about necromancy (in fact lots of translations of Dt.18.11 render the phrase this way, i.e. "necromancy") and (b) it is part of the OT Mosaic Law which is no longer binding.

Now people who pray to saints (a) aren't engaging in necromancy and (b) aren't bound by the Mosaic Law. They are asking others to pray for them, something Christians are encouraged to do. Moreover, they are praying to those who have eternal life and are even now with God in the Kingdom of Heaven. These considerations, together with those offered in my earlier post (#44), show that there is nothing at all wrong with praying to saints. If, however, someone feels uncomfortable doing so that's fine. I certainly don't think anyone should feel obligated to pray to saints. But there isn't anything wrong with it.

[Wondergirl]

Some pray to saints for what purpose?

[Akoue]

Some pray to saints for what purpose?

Have you ever asked another to pray for you? Why?

[450donn]

Where is it scripturally correct to pray through or to anybody except God? I find no where in my Bible where it tells me to pray to anybody except God the father. I think you are suggesting heresy with your comments.

[Akoue]

Where is it scripturally correct to pray through or to anybody except God? I find no where in my Bible where it tells me to pray to anybody except God the father. I think you are suggesting heresy with your comments.

Then you are confused.

Until very recently, the word "pray" in English meant to ask or to petition another--as you'd know if you ever read Shakespeare or nineteenth century English novels. Only since the early twentieth century has the word "pray" come to be used exclusively for petitions addressed to God. When Catholics and others pray to saints, they are doing what you do when you ask (pray, in the now archaic sense) someone to pray to God for you.

The Bible prohibits worship of anyone other than God. Nowhere does it prohibit petitioning (asking, praying) others to offer intercessory prayers on one's behalf. As I have shown, this is in fact encouraged by Scripture.

[Tj3]

Deuteronomy makes no distinction between death of the flesh and eternal life in Christ, nor does it make a distinction between saved and unsaved. So your point is, at best, anachronistic.

Let's deal with you last comment first - this makes no distinction between saved and unsaved - that you got right. There is no distinction anywhere in scripture with respect to speaking with the dead as to whether they are saved and unsaved, and thus taking that passage in the NT about God being God of the living (which was taken entirely out of context) has no bearing on this question whatsoever.

But really it's just not to the point. Even if we set the anachronism aside, it is still (a) talking about necromancy (in fact lots of translations of Dt.18.11 render the phrase this way, i.e. "necromancy") and (b) it is part of the OT Mosaic Law which is no longer binding.

Necromancy comes from two words, the first meaning "dead tissue", in other words speaking of the dead in the flesh, and mancer referring to divination, a term used to call up the dead or other being from the spirit world. Thus it is referring to conjuring up those who are dead in the flesh. Translators agree.

We have one example in scripture where someone tried speaking to the dead and God condemned the act.

Now people who pray to saints (a) aren't engaging in necromancy and (b) aren't bound by the Mosaic Law.

As for (a), yes they are by the definition of the term; and (b) it is interesting that you simply and completely toss out not just Mosaic law but the intent of the law. Do you also believe that lying, cheating, adultery are okay because they are part of Mosaic law? I hope not. The fact is that though Christians are not bound by the law, the law represents God's standard for us. Jesus was clear that he was not getting rid of the law:

Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV

So, to say that because Christians are no longer under the law, that we can therefore be law-less is not scriptural.

[Tj3]

Then you are confused.

Until very recently, the word "pray" in English meant to ask or to petition another--as you'd know if you ever read Shakespeare or nineteenth century English novels.

Many words in English and other languages carry multiple meanings - that does not mean that we can mix the meanings to apply to situations which are out of context. Unless of course, you think that a bundle of stick (a fag) is the same thing as a cigarette (a fag). I am sure that yo9u can think of numerous examples of similar multiple meaning words that used even today in everyday speech.

So when someone is petitioning the judge in the courtroom and using the word "pray" to mean "petition", it does not mean the same thing as praying to the dead.

Nowhere does it prohibit petitioning (asking, praying) others to offer intercessory prayers on one's behalf.

As shown it does prohibit any communication between those alive in the flesh and those dead in the flesh.

As I have shown, this is in fact encouraged by Scripture.

Show us anyplace where praying to the dead is encouraged by scripture.

[arcura]

Akoue,
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your use of holy Scripture to demonstrate the points you so well made.
Yes indeed, the Saints in heaven are not dead which includes many of those from the Old Testament such as Jacob, Moses and Elijah.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

the Saints in heaven are not dead

Do we really know the state of those who are in heaven (if they are)? I've heard both body and soul sleep until Judgment Day. I've also heard that one immediately enters heaven after death. If someone on earth prays to a deceased relative who supposedly died in Christ, what can that relative do for the earthbound person? And if that relative is not in heaven, then what?

[Tj3]

If someone on earth prays to a deceased relative who supposedly died in Christ, what can that relative do for the earthbound person? And if that relative is not in heaven, then what?

Another important question is, if God can hear our prayers, then what can a mere person do for us that God cannot?

[arcura]

Woundergirl,
Of course the saints in heaven are not dead or they would not be in heaven.
On this thread Scripture has been quoted that shows that some people who have passed this life not dead and are in heaven.
Also quoted were Jesus words to that effect,
I believe that if you prayed to a relative who has passed away and who did indeed make it to heaven that person is a heavenly saint and can pray to God for you.
The more people, in the flesh or in heaven, you have praying for you the better.
I have often asked all the saints in heaven to pray for me to the Lord our God.
In fact that request of the saints is a part of the daily Mass in Catholic Churches world wide.
I praise God that He has saints in heaven for they are God's human success story.
That is that many people (Now heavenly saints) were convince about the truth of God and followed His will and thus made it to heaven.
I image that like a very good artist displaying his good works for all to see.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

I believe that if you prayed to a relative who has passed away and who did indeed make it to heaven that person is a heavenly saint and can pray to God for you.

Why would he or she pray for me?

The more people, in the flesh or in heaven, you have praying for you the better.

Why is that important? I can communicate with God just fine on my own.

[Tj3]

I believe that if you prayed to a relative who has passed away and who did indeed make it to heaven that person is a heavenly saint and can pray to God for you.
The more people, in the flesh or in heaven, you have praying for you the better.

Fred,

Ignoring the Biblical prohibition against praying to the dead for a moment, why do you think that a mere human in human would enhance your prayer getting to God the Father? Does God need a "hearing aid"?