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No one (apparently) sees a problem in that this guy "made" his wife move out of the marital residence and then "allowed" her to return? Last I heard we were allowed to work and handle money and vote, too.
I'm not excusing her cheating but I can see a conflict here.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marria...ml#post2018732
Wow. I don't even know what more to say to that one.
Yeah I read that to Judy. If I told my wife that I was making her leave she would flip me the bird and go on with her day. If she did decide to leave on her own you better believe she will come back whenever she wanted.
Man say go.
Man say come.
-grunt-
Sarah
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudweiser
On the floor!
"She says that I am the perfect match for her but on the other hand misses her indepedance"
No wonder that. Maybe she should "ask" to be treated with the same respect this owner of several companies affords himself.
Surprised someone didn't say "Me Tarzan, you Jane!"
My fiancé told me she wanted to eat somewhere she had never been before, I took her to the kitchen
Grrr. Not you Chuck, the OP of that thread. ;)
If my husband told me to leave it would be a case of looks actually killing. No way, not going to happen.
So the wife made a mistake, we can all agree that it was a whopper and yes, she should be sorry if she wants to save her marriage, and from the sound of things she is sorry, although not sorry enough for him. :(
What is she supposed to do, grovel at his feet, beg his forgiveness, offer up her body as a sacrifice to prove that she's faithful and loves him? Come on! This is 2009, not 1809! Ooh, make her wear the scarlet letter A! Yes, let's go backwards, not forwards. Just shoot me if that happens, I'll be killed within minutes anyway with my big mouth. ;)
I can't believe that some people still think they have the right to boss around someone else. If I were her then her hubby would have gotten a swift kick in the arse, a suitcase in one hand and me pointing to the door. If he wants to be alone there are plenty of hotels that can offer that for him.
Grrr. :(
Actually, I kind of got the impression that that was exactly what he wanted...
I agree with you 100%
I really don't see any problem.
Have you ever been in a situation the Poster described?
I know if I had TOLD my wife to leave on the night she told me she cheated me... yeah, she would have left.
Even though my wife is one tough righteous woman.
She may not be up on woman's rights or issue like you and I are (yes, I am a Liberal).. she sure knows how to give me an earful of where her line is.
My point is the situation is more predominant over the women's rights issue.
BTW, after 40 years on this planet and trying to understand marriages and relationships (married for 18 years)... I have come to the conclusion 50/50 marriages and the natural order of martial relationships, is that the MAN has to be the Leader of the household. Women's right (on the extreme level) is actually bad for a marriage... just as the extreme case of abuse by a man in the relationship.
I believe we tipped the scale over too much in the mind's of man, in which their template is that of a whimp, chump, Nice Guy. Someone a woman will eventually cheat on, because of the lack of a man in her life/ shoulder to cry on. Let's face it, a Man and a Woman are not created equal. Her needs and his needs are totally different in a relationship. Her for needing security and the constant reassurance of "do you Love me?" His for needing respect, no matter how many times he has failed.
There is a difference between martial and marital relationships. I think you are describing a martial relationship, albeit unintentionally.
If your wife wants to be TOLD what to do and it works for both of you, fine. It apparently would not work for several of "us."
But, again, maybe it doesn't work for both of you because I see she has already cheated on you - https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marria...ml#post2076139.
Are you KIDDING, SVImager?
Really?
MY household (been with my hubby for 13 years) is 50/50. We share the work, the bills, the finances, the decisions. The ONLY times we had problems in our relationship is when one of us wasn't contributing our 50%, leaving the other to pick up the slack (and taking that for granted, to boot!)
You better believe that my husband KNEW better than to tell me to leave when I cheated on him (VERY long story--not getting into it here), that he would have never seen me again--but he WOULD be paying for it.
Instead, because he sees me as his EQUAL, we worked it out (with help, of course), and are now closer than most couples I know.
We don't need to go backwards to men having to be in charge, and women needing security and men needing respect.
Respect and security are both EARNED, but by BOTH genders.
But, again, maybe it doesn't work for both of you because I see she has already cheated on you - https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marriag...ml#post2076139.
Oooo... that's a low blow.
I was the 50/50 and more before the affair.
The Man she cheated with, was a total A-hole... I am saying he full blown yelled at his wife in public with 8 other neighbors watching at a bar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Hey, that is Great.
I hope it continues to work out for you guys.
The Unconditional Respect and Unconditional Love comes from the book "His needs, Her needs." and is in the Bible. (I've been avoiding from quoting the Bible as a source since some people are not Christians.)
This is what is hardwired into us.
A man doesn't ask "Do you love me?"
A man wants your support no matter what. "I know that was bad outcome, but I will be here by your side."
I have 39 years on this planet, 14 years of marriage, with hubby for 19 years, almost 20. I can tell you right now that our marriage is 50/50. If he ever tried to be the "leader" in this house, he'd get booted on his arse so fast he wouldn't know what hit him.Quote:
BTW, after 40 years on this planet and trying to understand marriages and relationships (married for 18 years)... I have come to the conclusion 50/50 marriages and the natural order of martial relationships, is that the MAN has to be the Leader of the household. Women's right (on the extreme level) is actually bad for a marriage... just as the extreme case of abuse by a man in the relationship.
I am equal and expect to be treated that way.
Women cheat on nice guys? That's your theory? Women cheat on jerks too. Men cheat more then women, so what of your nice guy theory in that respect?Quote:
I believe we tipped the scale over too much in the mind's of man, in which their template is that of a whimp, chump, Nice Guy. Someone a woman will eventually cheat on, because of the lack of a man in her life/ shoulder to cry on. Let's face it, a Man and a Woman are not created equal. Her needs and his needs are totally different in a relationship. Her for needing security and the constant reassurance of "do you Love me?" His for needing respect, no matter how many times he has failed.
If this works for you, great. It doesn't work for me or most of the women I know. I refuse to walk ten steps behind a man because he has a penis and needs to feel superior. It's just not going to happen.
FYI, I've never cheated on my nice guy husband, nor has he cheated on me. It's called a relationship, not a job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Hey that is Great for you.
I hope your marriage is a successful lifetime marriage.
Ok... I am lost... where did I refer a relationship as a job.
You know you sound like my wife... during the 14th/15th year of our marriage.
She is very strong willed too. I Love her dearly and I trust her dearly.
She said those exact words "he'd get booted on his arse so fast" about cheating to me and to her sister-in-law when her brother had an innocent dinner with a female instructor.
So What happened??
That same strong willed wife, demanded Girls night out.
I was reluctant but had to comply against my uneasy feelings.
When she comes home after 3 AM and twice after 5 AM, I didn't sleep at all.
We talked about the uneasy feelings I have with the situation.
I was the perfect husband (branded by her), because I capitulated to what she ask.
We both work. I make breakfast, make lunches, and dinner (not microwaved dinners). I do the laundry and clean. It is not like I don't put in 50%... I actually do more. We have good communications.
You are not in search of answers "why" like I am.
You are not in need to come from the angle/ Point of View to the problem of female infidelity like I am. Only because it is not personal to you and there isn't a motivation for you to ( and I hope you never have the need to).
Yes, for us (you and me) to reflect the problem from our own personal view ONLY is wrong... but that is my only view that I have right now to build my theory/ model on.
So, my questions are:
Haven't we already achieved Women's Rights?
How far does the Women's Right issue have to go in order to say Ok it is done?
Is pushing Women's Right further than where it is today, detrimental to marriages or to the point of stepping on the man's role in a relationship?
Is the mainstream Nice Guy a product of pushing Women's Rights too far?
Is there a Natural Balance of Gender Roles that is thrown out of balance for an artificial set of Gender Roles?
The Nice Guy wouldn't cheat on his wife, even after the discovery of his wife's affair.
They just don't have the drive to do it... It is not in their Personality. They tend to be needy and want to please their wives. In which, I also learned these are traits that are against attracting your wife.
The Jerk would be too controlling and since it is an extreme... would either attract her or push the marriage to failure with or without cheating.
Coming from the angle that I see things, I understand your opposition to my views. I have a hard time with this knowledge myself. Secular studies have shone it and the Bible have reference the male role. The Man has to be a leader... not the Leader... but must take lead. It is what attract woman.
Note: We are talking about theories here... I don't beat my wife nor do I ask her to get me a beer ( I have two daughters to do that... JK). As a matter of fact, I am the one running upstairs and downstairs to get her glass of fresh squeezed lemon water.
I believe the battle is in the minds of Men, believing that pleasing their wives is the way to lasting attraction and passion... which it is not.
The Ultimate question is "Why are there so many divorces?"
Not the cheating, but the lost of feelings for each other. Maybe, the answer is against the extremes.. you can't be too much of a Jerk and you can't be too much of a Nice Guy.
I think you missed that I DID cheat on my husband.
He's a VERY nice guy--treats me like a princess.
At the time I cheated, he took me for granted, didn't talk to me anymore, and essentially put his needs before my own. It's a very long story.
BUT--he BECAME the nice guy he is today BECAUSE he nearly lost me.
Now we BOTH work on our marriage.
You can most definitely be too much of a jerk.
And there's a big difference between a nice guy and a doormat.
This is the main difference between us. I don't believe in the bible.Quote:
Coming from the angle that I see things, I understand your opposition to my views. I have a hard time with this knowledge myself. Secular studies have shone it and the Bible have reference the male role. The Man has to be a leader... not the Leader... but must take lead. It is what attract woman.
My husband and I work together for the good of our family. We don't have "roles" per se. He's not the manly man that brings home the bacon and then sits back while I cook it. We both work, we both help around the house, we both raise our kids, we're a team.
We don't need a "boss" which is what it sounds like you're saying, which is also why I stated that marriage isn't a job. No, you didn't actually say those words, but that's what you're making it sound like.
My marriage is a union of equals. I wouldn't boss him around or rule over him any more then he would rule over me. That won't ever change, it's not in me to cow tow to anyone. I'm not a submissive person, it wouldn't end well if anyone tried to force me into that position.
If you and your wife have come to an agreement that works for both of you, then great, that works for you. It doesn't, and never will, work form me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVImager
Again - I don't think the very advice you offered on another thread worked for you. Your wife cheated. I don't cross-posting is a low blow. If you post it, expect it to be read. Not the least uncommon around here to read other posts to see where someone is coming from. You'd be amazed by the number of people who post totally different stories on different threads.
Concerning the person your wife had her affair with - your wife had an affair behind your back and presumably lied to you on at least one occasion, you being the "nice guy" in this scenario (by your own description). The man she picked for the affair was (in your own words) a total "a-hole." She also picked a friend/neighbor, not a stranger.
I'll tell you what I tell the men I date who are divorced and spend the evening tearing their ex-wives apart - "You married her. If she's such a loser, what are you?" Your wife must have seen something in this man. And if she took up with a total "a-hole" what does that make her?
Sorry to be harsh but you are looking for someone to say something that I don't think you are going to hear, whatever that may be.
I was only kidding... and forgot to use the smiley face... it was referencing about my personal failure in marriage.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Clarification... There was only one guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
As a matter of fact, I blamed myself for the failure of our marriage. My questions were what I could've done to prevented the cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I thought I was only describing the situation. No ripping her apart.
It is really hard to show balance in writing about this situation, with so many factors.
I blame more on Josh (more than 50/50) for "gaming" my wife from seeing the weakness in our marriage. I understand, it was still my wife's decision to do it. My failure was in part of not living up to standard of what being a Man should be.
I did some changes... before, I didn't care what others thought of me. I was the big kid, I didn't care if I was playing tag with my kids and dressing up in silly costumes with my kids. Now, I don't do that, because this is not what a mature man does. You lose RESPECT and attraction value. We are talking about another housewife and my wife talking about my Halloween Costume and the other housewife rolling her eyes.
I still do things with my kids... like coaching Volleyball just the two of us, working on Projects, etc... just not the silly stuff.
Really not looking for someone to say something that I want to hear about my situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
I don't even know what I want to hear... except a new theory why it happened.
I really want people to see that we have gone too far with the equal thing.
Before you beat me up with Women's Rights issues... I am talking about going too far the other way and abusing Men and affecting the "Natural" order of a man and woman relationship... in very subtle ways, in which I believe is undermining the institution of marriage.
But than again Judy this is what I want to hear from you... "You're my Super Hero... SVIMager knows it All and more than any Woman out there.." hehe...
I think we've said all that has to be said and I DO hear what you are saying.
One clarification of a clarification (here's where the smiley face should go) - when I referred to your wife lying to you on more than one occasion I meant lying to you to explain where she was, where she had been, something along those lines. I did NOT mean that there had been more than one man outside your marrriage.
Hi SVImager!Quote:
Originally Posted by SVImager
I read some of your posts in the other thread and here. I like your optimistic, and analytical responses (on other threads).
I would like to say that I like the way you have thought through your life post your big incident. You seem to have handled it very patiently, without taking angry hasty decisions. I think it is commendable that you continue to learn from it and help others too.
Cheers!
It would have been more appropriate for you to send this via PM, not on a thread with a very specific topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by tara1
You never addressed the topic at all. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by tara1
Thanks Tara1..
Really appreciate your validation and comment.
My goal is to in Still Hope and reason "Why" for Men that are going through a similar situation.
This Strong Women's Right belief is stomping on "Respecting your Man"... maybe we need to reinforce the balance. (BTW, I am Pro-Choice... in a household and neighborhood full of Pro-Lifers... so I am not coming from the right... I am left going toward center. I do believe it is Life, but I do believe it is 100% Mother's choice. The Baby is citizen of one inside the Mom, no man-made gov't should overcome the God ordain sovereignty of the Mother. I'll save this for another thread. Staying on Topic... )
So, How can a Man retain his Respect in a relationship if his spouse is very strong willed and capitulates to his wife?
Can we agree that "Why some women cheat because There is a lost of REspect"?
Sure... I can agree that SOME women MIGHT cheat for that reason.
I think that there's a lack of respect involved whenever ANYONE cheats, personally.
BUT--there are as many reasons for cheating as there are cheaters.
I am not talking about Extremes... Like a Serial Cheater... They will cheat no matter what or out of habit.
Lost of Respect as the very first thing to go... as Cheating is just the symptom of something wrong with the relationship.
Lost of Respect as the very First Sign to look for.
In this case it would be extreme case of under the breathe comments on the man's failures.
No--I disagree.
Lack of solid communication is usually the MAIN problem.
THAT leads to lack of respect for each other by BOTH parties. She mumbles about his failures, he fails to do the simple things she asks him to do. He mutters under his breath about his controlling wife, she stews in anger about the fact he comes home from work every night and plunks himself down in front of the TV or computer and they never go out anymore.
It's COMMUNICATION, every time. And communication involves BOTH parties.
And I'm not talking about serial cheaters either. I'm absolutely serious about reasons for cheating having to do with the specific cheater. In my case, it was being taken completely for granted, and ignored no matter how many times I tried to tell him what I was feeling--or if it wasn't ignored, it was downplayed. When someone DID pay attention to me, then, it was like a drug, and VERY heady. It's hard to ignore the excitement of feeling attractive and fun after being ignored and taken for granted.
He and I recently had a conversation about it, 10 years after the fact, and he STILL does not believe that he treated me badly. I agree--he didn't. He treated me with indifference, which was worse.
By the way--our relationship is 50/50. We both give our all to it. We learned from what happened, and neither takes the other for granted. He's never been less of a man to me, and I never lost my respect for him. I just lost my self-esteem, my self-respect, and my honor in doing what I did.
What I'm saying is that part of the reason I started dating and have stayed with my husband is because he DOES stand up to me. He does tell me when I'm wrong, and he has NO problem putting his foot down when it's important. That doesn't mean he wears the pants--it means that he stands up for his side of the relationship. I do the same things to him. I'd consider myself a strong woman, and NEED a strong man to compliment that. That doesn't mean I need him to boss me around--it means I need him to not let ME boss HIM around. That doesn't mean we need to have specific gender roles--he does most of the cooking in our house, and I do the car maintenance. It just means that in order to have a good working relationship, you have to have TWO people committed to ONE relationship.
I said right from the beginning that any time I spoke with a "cheater" I heard "attention," not sex, not anything else. Yes, maybe if someone cheats on a person that person cheats in revenge but that's not what "we're" talking about.
I NEED to be able to look my partner in my eyes and talk about anything - good, bad, indifferent. I NEED a straight-shooter, an honest person, someone who knows himself.
Some time after I got divorced it occurred to me that the "other woman" paid my husband a great deal of attention, stroked his ego, thought he was the greatest thing since kitty litter. And I took him for granted. It takes two people to get married and it takes two people to get divorced. I was not faultless.
And I did NOT make that mistake the second time around and I'm NOT making that mistake this time.
And I've said it before and I'll probably say it again - Synnen, your candor, honesty, heart, blow me away every time. Your husband is a lucky man - I'm not paying you lip service. I mean it.
You bring so much to these threads!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Isn't that "Respect"?
Men wants unconditional Respect.
Women wants unconditional Love.
These are not my theories.
These are from Biblical study guides and Gaming Women (Very Secular) guides.
What I am talking about is, How did we get to the point of:
Taking Him for Granted
Thinking of him as a Loser
Losing that spark and passion
Not caring for each other's Dreams
Yep.. it is 50/50 fault.
But it is preventable on his part, if he knows what he is doing wrong.
Much of it takes maturity and understanding your spouse.
And mostly knowing how to be a Man.
And so far what I believe is that a strong willed woman will cheat on her spouse or have one cheat on her due to the imbalance and struggle of the relationship... outside of other extreme factors and issues.
Why a "Strong Willed Woman?"
Because if he is not up to her standards, she will put him down and disrespect him.
This disrespect (thinking of him as a Loser) will lead to the allure (outside of the Real Life issue filter) exciting, forbidden & passionate affair.
Everything that is unAttractive is seemingly done by the husband.
Whereas the Other Man has all the Attractive qualities plus the filter away from dealing with Real Life issues.
This is also the reason why it is so much easier to game housewives of 5, 10,17 years marriage.
No... I'm telling you, it was the OTHER WAY AROUND for most of the women I know who've cheated.
HE took HER for granted. HE didn't respect HER.
It had nothing to do with how "manly" he was. It have EVERYTHING to do with his lack of effort into effective communication. Guys don't like to TALK about their feelings--they see that as "unmanly". Well, guess what? If you do NOT talk about your feelings, she sees you as uninterested.
I state again: There's a HUGE difference between a nice guy and a doormat.
I also think that the Bible is full of crap when it comes to women--St. Paul was a classic misogynist, and frankly, the idea of being subservient and letting a man have all the power in a relationship is repugnant to me.
If he knows what he's doing WRONG, then there is communication in the relationship. I say again that the problem isn't that he's not manly enough or too manly--it's that the couple is not communicating with each other effectively.
People cheat for MANY MANY reasons. I've never known ANYONE before now who has stated it's because he wasn't man enough, and wasn't acting in his gender role that was the problem. Yeah, it's a problem if he caters to her every whim and never stands up for himself--but that's not being a nice guy, that's being a doormat. NO ONE respects a door mat--Male OR female.
Look--a power struggle is the effect of lack of communication--NOT the effect of men not being manly enough, or women not falling back into expected gender roles.
If someone isn't up to your standards, you shouldn't marry them in the first place--but that's WHOLE another topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
I only describe the extreme of the gender roles... as in the 1950' s Man and Woman.
To show what are the extremes..
A Superior Man is a balance of his Masculinity and his Feminine sides.
That means opening up to talk and being able not to be taken advantage of.
Thank you for sharing.
That is very interesting with your situation with Communication... first.
In my situation, It was the Respect First. Not cleaning up to her standards or displaying Lower Values and when the affair or leading in to affair started... Communication channel was shutting down. It was secrecy and passwords and the demand for space & distance.
Right--so you weren't communicating with each other. And a lot of it was that she was not communicating with you--or not doing so effectively.
And I'm betting that in trying to communicate with her, you put her on the defensive, which only made communication harder.
When effective communication in a relationship goes, it's my opinion that the results are loss of respect for each other, loss of trust for each other, and loss of drive to put your energy into the relationship.
This is why I recommend couples counseling so often when I see couples struggling to communicate with each other--sometimes all that's needed is a third-party "translator" to make the other person's point of view more clear.
HAHA!! Aren't we all trying to play Victim here... OK OK back to reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Uh... No... we did have communication first.
Lost Communication after the lost of Respect by being the Nice Guy.
Hmmmm... The Chicken or the Egg question...
Both are equally important... and both were lost when the affair began... Can we agree on this part?
As a matter of fact, I always have communication.
That was why I was in search of "Why did it happen?"
Believe me, I thought "Communication" was key.
Communication was what guilt her into telling me the truth.
I love her and I trust her... I told my wife, "I know there is something wrong, but what ever it is we will overcome it together... no matter what." That was at 9PM... At 2AM, She started cursing and woke me up... I thought oh God, she is crazy, how am I going to deal with this... and then she told me the truth.
The Truth set her free... The pain I felt was the most intense ever (but not as painful as watching my child getting stitches). Yes we shared the pain that night, I could see why she couldn't bare it alone anymore and needed to release the burden... on me.
Don't rely on Communication Alone.
It is not the prevention of affairs.
I let my wife take the car today by herself... so she can go shopping for the foods she like.
Let her?Quote:
Originally Posted by SVImager
I have my own car, which I paid for with money I earned. Yes, I am woman, hear me roar!
I only read this last page, but it sounds to me like you've taken the role of the 1812 husband, walk 10 steps behind me because I have a penis, ask permission for the use of the things I buy, be submissive and subservient. If your wife is okay with that, then fine, but she's not the norm.
I hate to burst your bubble but the only difference between you and me is our body parts. You have a penis, I have a vagina, other then that, we're equal.
If you're wife is willing to lower herself, her self esteem, be your submissive obedient wife, then she's taking a major leap back, in my opinion.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, not for me, never will be, no matter what. It's not worth the price I'd pay.
Thankfully my husband knows that my place is right beside him, not 10 steps behind, barefoot and pregnant.
I let my wife do stuff all the time.
I let her know that I love her with all my heart.
I let het know that I will be there for her no matter what.
I let her know that because she is recovering from surgery, I won't be going to work at all this week.
I let her know when we first started dating, that I would always treat her as equal, actually a notch ABOVE me.
No, I am not a "metrosexual", weaker than normal kind of guy. I am a man who hunts and cleans game, who has a tractor and keeps it running. Who knows how to use basically every tool that's been made. Who knows how to do anything that is considered "manly". But I also know how to cook, clean,sew, take care of my children and not just watch them. I know their medicine, teachers ( field trip today) doctors, allergies, etc. I know how to use the right washing powder, basically anything that ISN'T considered manly.
I let her do all sorts of things, except be married to some a$$ that thinks that he's better than her.
I don't expect any special award for doing the things that I am supposed to do. I do them because I care. And know that I have been blessed by having such a great WOMAN in my life.
JM, I really wish I could rep you. :)
1 million greenies for you.
HAHA!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jmjoseph
I let my wife give me a back rub.
I was only kidding... I was trying to get a rise out of the Screaming Woman's Right Activist. I didn't even get one real roar.
Anyway, Joe... That special woman in your life... is that your wife? Your girlfriend? Your Ex? Who is she?
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