It is very brave of me to pose this question, as there are bound to be people who misunderstand me and believe I am defending backyard breeders. Let me make it clear now, I am not. I feel that it is a despicable practice and if I could be instrumental in bringing about the persecution and punishment of all those involved (plus the puppy farmers etc) I would not hesitate.
I do think that it would be helpful however to have a discussion on the way backyard breeders are handled on this site and whether this is in the best interests of their dogs, who after all are the priority of all dog lovers. Currently, the situation seems to be that as soon as a new user is suspected of being a backyard breeder, the experienced experts demand their credentials and become rather critical and aggressive (which is understandable). The effect that this reaction is likely to have is that the BYB will not return to the site. How is this helping their dogs? OK we do not have to listen to more of the sickeningly ignorant questions that make us angry but maybe if the BYB does not get his question answered, he will forget about the problem/query he has and just carry on as normal. I can't think that being criticised by strangers is going to stop the type of person who is breeding dogs for the wrong reasons from doing so. Surely the fact that they are asking questions rather than just arrogantly assuming they know enough is a good thing?
For example, if a new user comes onto this site and says "I've just bred a litter and the pups all look really pot bellied", other users could start to lecture about breeding when one does not know such basic information, demanding credentials etc and being hostile or they could explain to the user that his puppies may die if they have an over burden of worms and are not treated. Giving this information in a civil manner may result in the BYB returning to the site and asking more questions in the future and starting to learn some of the basic information that will benefit his dogs for him to know. Which reaction to the question is going to be of more benefit to the dog/pups? I'm not saying do not explain that breeding when you know little or nothing about doing so is a bad idea (and why), its important that people are made aware of that, I just think that if it is explained in a nice way rather than giving in to the understandable anger, this reaction may be better for the dogs and puppies.
Sorry if I've waffled. I'm not saying I'm definitely right in what I'm saying, I just thought it might be interesting to discuss the point.

I agree.
I am not a 'back yard breeder' but it annoys the heck out of me when I am treated that way. I got lectured by a person who most likely signed up here just to jump all over me and then leave again when I stated that my dog got pregnant when I chained her out in the yard and my neighbor purposely left her dog loose out her front door because she wanted puppies my dog to have puppies cause she thought I would hand them over to her to sell.
Another thing I do not get is these breeders that say you MUST have your dog spayed by the time it is 6 months or it will get cancer. Are dog breeders dogs immune to getting cancer having all the litters they have through the years or what?
I am for responsible breeding like you know enough people that want puppies from your dog and you don't make it a habit/career getting your dog pregnant. I just do not like the breeders vs ''irresponsible dog owners'' thing that some doggy experts shove at us average dog owners. We love our pets too!

I can touch on this subject a little bit. I understand the basic point you are getting at, as far as this site is concerned. I do not condone "back yard breeding" as I live in an area where "BYB's" are everywhere, and yes it is a problem. Most of these animals die due to ignorance and neglect.

My mother would probably be classified as a "BYB" by most, and would tell anyone who had a problem with it to mind their own business (though not with those words). But she is what I would consider a responsible breeder. She does this not only because she enjoys it, but because it is supplemental income. Unlike most, though, she has a medical background and a great deal of experience. She breeds specialty mixes (small breeds in the mini and teacup varieties) and only breeds based on specific demand. She does her own shots, regulates diet, and keeps a tight schedule on all her females to know when to isolate them to prevent unintentional pregnancies. Plain and simple, she's responsible.

If she were more computer-literate, she would probably really enjoy AMHD, and would be an asset to the site. But the first time someone "jumped" on her for being a "BYB", she'd tell them what bridge to go jump off and offer to drive them there. It's a subject that EVERYONE has an opinion on, and those opinions range from one extreme to the other. But as a general rule, "BYB's" are a real problem, considering how many animals die on a daily basis in shelters.

You want to know that you can offer advice that may help a situation. You also want to refrain from aiding in a situation you disagree with, to prevent yourself from being an "enabler". But sometimes it's easy, and the defining line is bold and you can see it clearly. Other times that defining line is so obscured, though, that you don't know if you if you should chime in or not, and if it would help or not. It's hard to take a black-and-white stand if the issue is in the grey.

So many things I want to say, I probably won't get to them all.

Sajww, I agree, and when I first joined this site and started frequenting the pets forum I did answer the question that BYB's asked. I was kind, caring and helpful and everyday there would be 4 or 5 more questions from more BYB's asking things that should be common knowledge to most people, especially someone planning on breeding their dog.

Some of the people that came thanked me for my help, others would come and ask things like "well, now that the pups are 2 weeks old, when can I breed my dog again?" or "the pups where born without skulls, is this because of bad sperm, should I try again?" or "my dog is bleeding all over the place, I think she's in labor, what should I do?" I started getting angry.

Accidents happen, although I have to say (no offense to you NoHelp, you know I adore you) if people had their pets spayed or neutered before they reached sexual maturity, well, these accidents wouldn't happen. When a dog is in heat the males will dig under fences, jump over fences, you name it, just to get to the female. It really isn't that unusual to have an accidental mating.

It's the people who purposefully breed their dogs without any knowledge at all, those are the ones that upset me, and it never seems to stop. We get a lot of breeding questions from obvious BYB's every day, and that's just a very small percentage of the total BYB's out there. It's scary, sad and makes me sick.

I will say, I've never turned someone away that has a medical problem that I can help with. There was the lady that came on and told us that one of the newborn puppies wasn't breathing, what should she do, she was panicked. I gave the info as fast as I could, and yes, the pup was saved. Afterwards I begged her to have her dog spayed. Turns out, she had found the dog, already pregnant, only a day before, left on the streets to fend for herself and the puppies she carried.

I used to ask questions, but I hardly ever got honest answers, so now, yes, I get mad.

I do see what you're saying Sajjw, I really do. There does have to be a better way, one in which we help the dogs but also educate the owners.

How though? That's my dilemma.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

S When a dog is in heat the males will dig under fences, jump over fences, you name it, just to get to the female. It really isn't that unusual to have an accidental mating.

It's the people who purposefully breed their dogs without any knowledge at all, those are the ones that upset me, and it never seems to stop. We get alot of breeding questions from obvious BYB's every day, and that's just a very small percentage of the total BYB's out there. It's scary, sad and makes me sick.

---

I totally agree. What irks me most is the irresponsible owners of male dogs who purposely ALLOW their dogs to roam free when there are county leash laws, Unfortunately I have to admit that my Chow had several litters back in the 90's because of loose male dogs getting into my yard through the years, I would have taken her to get spayed but I had four kids, no help and no transportation. She was the sweetest dog in the world and I did give her a good home and 4 kids that loved her. One of those things I wish I could go back in time and 'fix'
I also agree that BYB is really wrong because you should not be using your dog as a money making racket.

I will say that first I object to anyone demanding proof of someone's experience to answer a question, the material fact of their answer should be what is important, or the fact they came here to get help.

Often we have people "question" out experts ( people with expert listing" on various things and I am fast to stop those threads since normally they are merely an attack on a poster.

I would treat such threads on dogs the same way, no poster should be attacked if their activity is legal

The simple fact is at this point, I have not seen such posts being reported.

But if I wish to breed my puppy at home, I have that right, and if anyone wishes to say something, tough.

Quote:

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But if I wish to breed my puppy at home, I have that right, and if anyone wishes to say something, tough.

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Sadly it is your right to do what you wish with the animals in your care. You're right, no one can stop you, but in the same token, I don't have to agree.

Chuck, I've been witness to the slaughter of animals because of overbreeding, irresponsible breeding and that, I'll do as I wish attitude.

I've seen the videos of puppies being euthanised, thrown into barrels presumed dead, but still alive, being covered by other dead dogs, sometimes staying alive for days, eventually dying of starvation, just because there aren't enough homes for them.

Millions of dogs that are already on this earth are euthanised every year. Why? Because there are people out there that don't consider this when breeding their adorable dog, if you can even consider what they do breeding, which I don't.

There are millions of dogs euthanised because of birth defects, genetic defects and just plain irresponsible breeders.

Actually that number is 7 -10 million every year. So I have a real problem with the "I'll do as I wish" attitude, because I choose to watch the repercussions of that thought process. I can't turn away, because I love dogs too much to do so. To me, dogs are not expendable, they aren't a means to make money, they are living, breathing beings with feelings. They feel pain, they feel fear, they feel, period.

Anyone who comes here claiming to love their dog but is doing something that is so detrimental to their health, they need to hear the truth, and that's what we tell them.

Are you saying that we have to coddle them? I've seen you get angry at people in your forum for doing something irresponsible and downright stupid, this is no different. So where do we draw the line? What is acceptable in one forum and not in another? Is there a set of rules for each different forum? If so, what are they?

Animal abuse and mistreatment is illegal, and should be treated as such. Dogs aren't expendible, and that is why so many states, and other countries are trying to pass laws to ban backyard breeding and puppymills, and impose fines on the breeders that recklessly breed. The dog world is overcrowded! There are 10,000 children born a day in the US alone, there are 70,000 dogs born everyday! This is a matter of doing the math!

Dogs are not property, as some of the existing laws say. Tax dollars go to fund these shelters, that are over-run with dogs and other animals, that they just can't pay to house! So what do they do? ---they kill them! What other choice do they have? There is just no room!

So are we expected to smile and tell another backyard breeder to just breed another litter, that will have another litter---that breeds another litter---and so on, just because someone says---so what! --I'll do what I want! Can we stop them? Not YET!

I know there have been several people that have come to the pet forum that have changed their minds, and not bred their dogs after all, because of what we've told them. Many don't even know about all that goes on, and how many dogs are slautered every single day. We try and make them aware! Is this wrong?---or is this censorship?

At last a discussion actually being held on a discussion board instead of a thread going South.

As FrChuck has said one of the most aggravating things I find on AMHD is the people who totally don't have a clue and post "Who are you, what makes you an expert, how dare you tell me what to do." It happens. Why these people who know everything are posting questions, I have no idea.

I happen to be a "zero breeding" person. I've worked in rescue. I have rescue dogs. I would not purchase a dog. I would certain "rehome" a dog. It's my personal preference. I believe life is conflicting and confusing enough and a person has to pick her battles. I chose to fight this particular one quietly and in my own way.

I certainly have read a very small percentage of what is posted on the "dog" board (in particular) and only wander over there when the legal threads are closed BUT here was my experience, not with a regular, with the very person who has posted this topic for discussion, the very person who is complaining about the lack of civility on the Board. This was the entire extent of my "contribution" on this thread. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/l...ml#post1288920.

This is my entire post on this subject:“I don't know if this will help you but I have big dogs and they got very restless in a kennel after a few hours so I bought one of those doggy playpen things, set that up in the family room and then put the kennel off of that with the kennel fence fastened to it. Gave her room to run and play (to some extent). If she had to "bathroom" she used one corner of the pen. Your puppy is just that - a puppy. One of my dogs never had a brain in her head until she turned 3 and to this day is like a windup machine when I first get home. If the barking and fussing gets no reaction she'll see it's pointless and give it up. I stopped using the playpen when I came home and discovered she found a way to lean against the fence and push and move the whole thing - kennel and all - across the room. That was the end of the kennel and the pen.”

And what did I get back? A REDDIE which reads: sajjw disagrees: "So you think that it is OK to leave a little puppy alone all day? Dogs rae social creatures. This animal is suffering.”

I find it amusing that the very person who is now concerned with kind and gentle answers had such a passive/aggressive/argumentative/misinformed comeback for me, a response which I believe was posted simply to start an argument.

Once again, it's not what people say in one post. It's what you read when you put all of their posts together and read through them. Apparently no one cares how kind and loving the World is or is not until they're losing the argument, then the rules are supposed to change.

Perhaps there have been offensive posts which I have not seen. I haven't seen any tonight and people who are passionate about subjects should be allowed to be passionate. AMHD should not be a one way street where one person says whatever strikes her fancy and then everyone else is supposed to keep it to himself or herself. Not at all.

And the deliberate passive/agressive misinterpretation of other people's comments would be a very good place to start.

So you are saying that we should treat all people who want to breed their dogs, backyard, puppymill, or reputable the same. That we should not have the right to condemn a horrible practice. That we should be more understanding of their ignorance and greed. I'm sorry but I just don't think so.
Perhaps maybe we should ask questions first and then shoot later, but don't expect any of us to sit by or help a backyard breeder.
What defines backyard breeder?
A backyard breeder is a person who breeds their dog for profit, fun, or money. They may have an adorable pet that they want to let have puppies, or they may feel their dogs are of the right quality because they come with papers, but papers do not guarantee actual quality. Most of the puppy mill puppies I have seen have come with papers. Often they breed dogs with genetic faults either purposely or ignorantly not thinking this will harm the puppies which further goes to harm the entire breed as a whole. They usually do not put much thought into temperament either, and how that will effect the breed. Poor breeding is what has helped tie the chain and ball to many good breeds reputations such as pitt bulls and chows.
So then, how do you determine who is a backyard breeder and who isn't if you don't "demand credentials"? Why should a few questions bother someone if they aren't backyard breeders? If they are responsible then they will have the answers. If they don't have the answers then they are fooling themselves into thinking they are doing the right thing. If every breeder out there who though of themselves as reputable actually where, then there wouldn't be so many shelter dogs dying every day.

What kind of should a reputable breeder know?
1.What health and temperament tests have been done on the parents?
2. How many litters do they generally have and how often do they breed their dogs? Every litter?
3. What kind of contract do the puppies come with? Spay and Neuter agreement? Health Guarantee?

If every breeder out there who though of themselves as reputable actually where, then there wouldn't be so many shelter dogs dying every day. I don't see this issue as grey at all. This is a life and death situation. If we can even change one person's mind about breeding their dogs then we've made a difference in the world, a small one, but its better then ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away. If we don't speak up who else will?

The established members who regularly participate on the pet boards know that the people who volunteer their free time to helping every person who goes through that part of the site are by far some of the most supportive, caring, empathetic and understanding people out there. I happen to believe that the people who participate on the pet boards consider an enormous amount of information when responding to every post. I also think the information shared there is vital to the health and well being of hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands upon thousands) of dogs, cats and other animals. I think it would be a mistake to be anything but proud of the good that is accomplished there.

I know that I have done everything in my power to be supportive and friendly with you, and I have spent an enormous amount of my time helping you to have a good experience here. Wouldn't you agree with that? I also know that Alty, Starbuck and other members have each gone out of their way to be kind and generous to you again and again. There's one reason behind that: it's because they're good and solid people. I think the good participants on the pet boards are absolutely amazing, period. Altenweg, for example, is nothing but a total and complete blessing to this site. She has done more for the pet boards in her time as a pet expert than you can even imagine.

With all due respect, I remember that you very recently posted that you had never heard of backyard breeding, so I must tell you that I am a little curious to hear how you know so much about it now that you feel that you should be telling the people who have had extensive experience with this issue how they should or should not be approaching it.

Quote:

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... I was criticised by 'Tickle' for mentioning breeding although this person knows nothing about me! The facts are, that last year I bred a beautiful litter of Irish Setters in the south of England where there is a shortage of this lovely breed. If it wasn't for people like me this beautiful breed would die out... And I was warned that I would be considered a so called 'backyard breeder' whatever that is! I didn't bother to waste my time explaining...

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https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/d...-316801-5.html

You might consider this to be a neutral question, but I don't. Yes, it is widely accepted that backyard breeding has reached epidemic proportions. Approximately two-thirds of the 53 million dogs in the U.S. come from backyard breeders, which has classified them as the single greatest cause of the pet overpopulation crisis in this country.

Consider this breeder's question for a moment (yes, this was a real post): "At least there alive and healthy for the most part... my chip boy, his ex gf got preggo and only one survived, one was born with its brain outside its skull(under the skin) and one had no head and no front paws. the two were dead of course. that makes me wonder.... u think his sperm is contaminated or something?!" would you recommend the answer be yes or no? Pardon my French, but I think the overall picture deserves a moment of reflection and perhaps a minute or two of educated research. In my opinion, it would be completely unethical to not take that step. As long as you follow the rules, you can answer breed related questions as you please. I hope you respect the fact that others are free to do the same.

All of that aside, I do think there is a perfect way to answer the question you posted in this thread. Here's how to do it: take as many of the questions you can find posted on the pet boards that relate to backyard breeding, and call as many veterinarians, shelters, rescue groups, humane organizations, breed clubs and reputable breeders as you possibly can. Post those questions to any one of those organizations, and then come back to tell us if their advice is any different than the advice shared on the pet boards. By the way, it won't be.

Linny, Starby, Silver and Judy, I wish I could give all of you a greenie. Sadly, that's not an option here.

What would this site be without all of you? I hope we never find out.

Sajjw, I extended an olive branch and thwack, you have now hit me in the face with it.

My gut says put you on my ignore list, but I can't, I have to read your posts because I care about what we tell people who come here. Like I told you before, I'm not always nice, because I can't always be nice, if a BYB or puppymill "breeder" comes here and has a problem with that, well, I can live with that.

We all do this in our own free time, because we care. So you're either part of the solution or part of the problem. You've been straddling the fence, it's time to pick a side.

You don't have to agree with me, I don't expect that, but stop jumping around. What do you believe in? What do you want to stand up for? Your choice, but choose.

That's all I'm going to say. I welcome you to AMHD, I've done so before, I hope that you can be respectful of what we do here and that you won't continue to rock the boat.

Good luck.

I do not own a dog but I would like to comment regards replying to questions put forward on this board. I believe everyone who asks a question should receive an honest accurate reply without judgment.

No Silverfoxkit, I am not saying that you do not have the right to condemn BYB's -of course you do and I have condemned them myself in my question. What I am saying is that despite the fact that their ignorant questions are enough to make one sick, is it in the best interests of their dogs to be unpleasant to them, resulting in them not using the site any more to gain information that will be beneficial to their dogs for them to have. I do think it is a good idea to explain to these people how much harm they are doing and all the reasons they should not breed their dog because after all, if there is a possibility that this will discourage them from breeding this is very worthwhile.

Altenweg, I am confused. Your initial response to this was to nicely explain why you get mad at back yard breeders and that when you first came on this site you used to answer their questions etc (you can read it yourself on page one). You then go on to say (quote)

I do see what you're saying Sajjw, I really do. There does have to be a better way, one in which we help the dogs but also educate the owners.
How though? That's my dilemma. (unquote)

Then later on, you post that you feel that by posing this thought for discussion I am hitting you in the face with the olive branch that you offered and that I should decide which side of the fence I want to be.
It is obvious from my post that I am on the side of the fence that is against backyard breeding. I just think that the wellbeing of dogs is the most important thing and if prioritising them means swallowing my anger and bitterness in order to help inform BYB's and encourage them to keep asking questions I personally would be prepared to do this. That may be wrong. I do say at the end of my post "I'm not saying I'm definitely right in what I'm saying" I was just interested in the opinions of others regarding this.
I don't mean to cause anyone offence.

I have already thanked you for your civility and kindness Linnealand and I do appreciate it very much. I hope that you do not feel that by defending myself, I intend to put you down in any way. This is not my intention at all. From things that I have read from you, it is clear that you are very knowledgeable and open minded and have a kind and generous nature.


[QUOTE=linnealand;1578238]
With all due respect, I remember that you very recently posted that you had never heard of backyard breeding, so I must tell you that I am a little curious to hear how you know so much about it now that you feel that you should be telling the people who have had extensive experience with this issue how they should or should not be approaching it.(unquote)

Thank you for the respect, please remember that I also posted that of course I was aware of the practice of BYB, I just had not heard that particular term for it before (I wondered if it was an american phrase). I am not claiming that I know "so much about it", I am aware of what it means, but am certainly no expert and have never claimed to be. I am not telling anyone how they should or should not be approaching BYB, I am simply expressing a thought that I had and asking for others opinions on it.



(Quote)... I was criticised by 'Tickle' for mentioning breeding although this person knows nothing about me! The facts are, that last year I bred a beautiful litter of Irish Setters in the south of England where there is a shortage of this lovely breed. If it wasn't for people like me this beautiful breed would die out... And I was warned that I would be considered a so called 'backyard breeder' whatever that is! I didn't bother to waste my time explaining... (unquote)

I have already posted that in hindsight, I realise that this was a silly thing to say and now wonder how long it is going to be thrown in my face for.



(Quote)
As long as you follow the rules, you can answer breed related questions as you please. I hope you respect the fact that others are free to do the same. (unquote)

Of course I respect the fact that people on here are free to answer questions as they please! With regard to me doing so, if the upshot of this discussion is that it turns out NOT to be in dogs' best interests for their BYB's to be informed and encouraged to keep asking questions then I wouldn't do so.

So a loving family that loves their pets and finds them good homes are bad, but a commercial operation where they do it "professionally" which often means the animals are not family members but livestock is good. Am I missing something,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sajjw

Of course I respect the fact that people on here are free to answer questions as they please! With regard to me doing so, if the upshot of this discussion is that it turns out NOT to be in dogs' best interests for their BYB's to be informed and encouraged to keep asking questions then I wouldn't do so.

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You cannot come on this board, all fire and brimstone, deliberate misunderstanding and argumentative nature and then decide to play nice in the interest of "the dogs." I also question your ability - for that matter, most people's ability - to know what is in the best interest of "the dogs."

As far as BYB and neutering - I doubt very highly that words on this Board are going to change the World as far as that is concerned. Were it a possibility, mandatory spay/neuter programs wouldn't be in effect all over the World.

I would find this question - "how should backyard breeders be handled ..." - to be just as offensive if it were posted on any other board. For example, were it "how should shoplifters be handled ..." I would request that the thread be closed. This is another example of people who have donated literally thousands of hours answering questions, researching, being criticized by someone with 30+ posts who first came on the board only to cause a problem, unable to express herself in any other manner.

And, again, I find any lecturing on how to behave on a board, how to show compassion, to be particularly surprising in light of this thread: 4 - In view of your "I don't want another child if it's going to end up to be a boy" post you are the LAST person to be lecturing me or anyone else on anything faintly resembling compassion and understanding. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/pregnan...ml#post1541843

Does no one read past threads?

And it is almost always a new member who comes in and questions things.
Not someone who has been here a year or have 1000 posts

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

And it is almost always a new member who comes in and questions things.
Not someone who has been here a year or have 1000 posts

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Bingo! 44,000 between us. YIKES! I need to get a life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

So a loving family that loves thier pets and finds them good homes are bad, but a commercial operation where they do it "professionally" which often means the animals are not family members but livestock is good. Am I missing something,

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Everyone has the right to their own opinion, and to voice that opinion (hopefully in a controlled, constructive manner). I myself am liable to throw off into a temper tantrum because of my lack of desire to see something from another's point of view. But because I disagree or even agree with anything, doesn't make anything right or wrong.

Pet vs. livestock brings up a good point though, Fr_Chuck. I think back to the farm I lived on, and the number of animals that died on a regular basis. The PETA-types,(this is used in bad taste and very generic, sorry) if they were to have seen what my animals were going through on a regular basis, they would have declared war on my family! Dogs died on a regular basis from injuries from wild hogs, coyotes, bobcats, snake bites or being trampled. But that was their job, to keep vermin at bay and away from the livestock and gardens. Cats died VERY regularly from snake bites, rodents and other varmints, but that too, was their job, to keep those things out of the yard, barn, and feed house. 80% of the animals on our hill were raised with intent to be butchered and consumed or sold for others to eat. The other 20% had to provide a service from the horses pulling plows, dogs protecting the livestock, to the cats keeping vermin in check.

Sometimes the difference between breeding dogs and breeding livestock is null and void, but most of the time it's night and day. Just as I would REFUSE to have anything to do with aiding someone who breeds, inbreeds, over breeds pits, rotts, dobies, etc for fighting, they could say that I am a hypocrite and that my having bred dogs to fight coyotes and such is no different. If that is their opinion, and they can rationalize it, there's no arguing them out of it, right or wrong. Most of you will think I am in the wrong for breeding dogs knowing the high probability they would live a short, hard life with a very little if any concept of luxury, but that was how it was back then and even OUR survival could depend upon an animal's ability to do it's intended job.

Granted, as a general rule, I see absolutely NO argument for not having your animals spayed/neutered. That simple thing absolutely, positively prevents accidental breeding. If you are not SPECIFICALLY intending on breeding and animal, is should be fixed to prevent the inevitable. An animal in heat will seek a male just as aggressively as a male will seek a female in heat. I've seen animals bred THROUGH cages. There's no excuse not to fix an animal that is going to be a pet. But you can't force people to do so. So it's a problem that will never go away. You cat put forth the effort to educate everyone that you can, and sometimes you will have some successes, but most often you will fail. The few successes you may have far outweigh the failures, even though in the long run, in the grand scheme, you haven't really accomplished anything. You keep 10% of BYB's from breeding, and guess what, the same number of animals still die in the shelter every week. But you will know you have done something.

Educate who you can, but don't force it upon them. Let them know how you feel on the subject, let them see your side, but don't damn them because they don't agree with you (no matter how much you want to.)

If a BYB is posting asking questions about a botched litter of puppies, are you doing any worse by not posting at all, than to jump on them and shove an agenda down their throat about how wrong they are because of the numbers of unwanted animals dying in the pound every week? Or you could try to help them save the animals they can, and strongly plead with them to fix ALL of the animals in question to prevent it from happening again.

Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll give you a reddie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie

Pet vs. livestock brings up a good point though, Fr_Chuck. I think back to the farm I lived on, and the number of animals that died on a regular basis. The PETA-types,(this is used in bad taste and very generic, sorry) if they were to have seen what my animals were going through on a regular basis, they would have declared war on my family!

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I DO find it offensive and bad taste to refer to people who are involved in animal rights in general, specifically breeding house PETS, to be "PETA-types." I'm not a member of PETA, never have been, certainly don't agree with many of their ideas,
But I DO consider myself to be an animal activist, Throwing around labels as you have done does nothing to resolve the conflict and I believe it further alienates the parties.

I see absolutely no comparison to your experience with working dogs (and, apparently cats and other animals) and breeding designer dogs for profit, none at all.

You apparently did or do live in a farm - I would never dream of calling you a farmer type or redneck or whatever derogatory term is used in your part of the country, yet you call me a PETA-type and don't even blink.

Once again - amazing.

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Originally Posted by sajjw

(Quote)...I was criticised by 'Tickle' for mentioning breeding although this person knows nothing about me!! The facts are, that last year I bred a beautiful litter of Irish Setters in the south of England where there is a shortage of this lovely breed. If it wasn't for people like me this beautiful breed would die out... And I was warned that I would be considered a so called 'backyard breeder' whatever that is! I didn't bother to waste my time explaining... (unquote)

I have already posted that in hindsight, I realise that this was a silly thing to say and now wonder how long it is going to be thrown in my face for..

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I would be interested (very interested, in fact) in the facts behind the shortage of Irish Setters in the South of England and the breed dying out if it were not for backyard breeders and their noble efforts. I can't find anything anywhere about this. In the US if there's a "shortage" of Setters in one State, they are simply transported there from another. Apparently not the same in England?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

As a matter of fact I DO find it offensive and bad taste to refer to people who are involved in animal rights in general, specifically breeding house PETS, to be "PETA-types." I'm not a member of PETA, never have been, certainly don't agree with many of their ideas,
but I DO consider myself to be an animal activist, Throwing around labels as you have done does nothing to resolve the conflict and I believe it further alienates the parties.

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Though that was not my intention, I don't disagree with you. I lack tact on an astronomical scale. My own opinions being my own, sway every aspect of who I am and how I present myself, sometime to my own detriment. Again, it was not my intention to offend, and I admitted it was in bad taste.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I see absolutely no comparison to your experience with working dogs (and, apparently cats and other animals) and breeding designer dogs for profit, none at all.

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I had good intentions, and it made sense to me at first, but being able to relay my thoughts on the subject in a manner that can be understood by others readily, well, is a weak point. I even type and edit myself with overwhelming attention deficit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

You apparently did or do live in a farm - I would never dream of calling you a farmer type or redneck or whatever derogatory term is used in your part of the country, yet you call me a PETA-type and don't even blink. Once again - amazing.

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I've been called worse, and would qualify for both of those titles, but don't take offense even if it were meant to be offensive. The main source of that quote "PETA-type" stems from the anger I myself hold towards people who easily pass a children's cancer hospital without blinking to get to an animal rights protest. Again, this was probably very poor choosing of words and very generic, but I'm stating it to be so. To actual call YOU, or any specifc person a "PETA-type", or any other title, or to compare an extremist to an activist, was not implied. Sorry if it came across that way.

To the point of the thread though, how to handle the subject specifically on AMHD, still seems "tounge in cheek" to me, because everyone can take and firmly hold to their own strong opinions on the matter, myself included, and with the intentions of helping get a point across, or to offer a different point of view for the better understanding by all, sometimes ends up being a rant that misses the original point of the thread. It happens often, and you folks who have been here for a long time pouring your hearts and minds out on this forum know this. Every subject isn't as cut and dry as we would like it to be, or it would be super easy, and the average topic would consist of one question, one answer, end of topic. I'm likely the world's worst on jumping onto a tangent and missing the point, though not intentionally, and end up not actually helping anyone and make myself sound like an ignorant boob, good intentions or not.

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Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie

The main source of that quote "PETA-type" stems from the anger I myself hold towards people who easily pass a children's cancer hospital without blinking to get to an animal rights protest. .

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I think we agree on lots of points here. My final word, though, would be that if I do stop at that children's cancer hospital, what good can I do there? If I go to an animal rights meeting I can make a difference.

Please don't assume that because I am involved in animal rights I am NOT involved in any other causes - children, adults or anything in between - because that is NOT the case,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I think we agree on lots of points here. My final word, though, would be that if I do stop at that children's cancer hospital, what good can I do there? If I go to an animal rights meeting I can make a difference.

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What good can you do at a children's cancer hospital? That's totally up to you and how much time/money/effort you want to donate, same as with a animal rights meeting. It's every individual's choice what they do with their available resources. Granted I don't know of anyone who is going to walk into a children's hospital and miraculously start curing these children, but how many dogs will be spared uthenization that day and because you showed up at an animal rights meeting? I've often wondered what percentage of the money my wife and I donate to the local humane society goes towards buying buying the uthenasia injection? It's not things we have absolute control over, and have to hope for the best. If we found out that all of our donation was used solely for purchasing the death injection, it would make us feel as though our donation was in vain. You have to do what you can and hope that it has the best outcome.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Please don't assume that because I am involved in animal rights I am NOT involved in any other causes - children, adults or anything in between - because that is NOT the case,

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Not the case at all! There is nothing that I say meant to be a personal attack on anyone, unless I specifically call you out by name, which I can't see me doing. So often do I see a general statement taken as a personal attack on this forum, and not that I am saying this is the case here, because I don't know, you may simply be trying to get a point across just as I am, but so often things are taken so personally. In an online forum you don't get to see the emotion or the tone of voice of a conversation or body language to occompany what you are reading from text, and that creates an environment of complication where it was not intended. That sort of brings me back to whether to post at all to a question, would the lack of an attempt to answer be better or worse than to answer at all? I confound myself with this regularly! Take this thread for example, I don't see where any of my involvement has been beneficial at all, even though I had the best of intentions. I may not have even come close to getting a valid point across at all, because I can't know that anything I say here will be read with the same frame of mind I was in when I posted it. It's a craps shoot and you have to hope for the best sometimes.

Please don't change horses in midstream - your quote referred to people who pass children's cancer hospitals without blinking while driving to an animal rights protest. Now it's turned into something else, where your time makes the most difference and so forth, and where your donations are going. For the record, I don't think "uthenasia" (as you put it) is the worst thing that can happen to unwanted, homeless pets. Not a popular opinion, I'm sure, but don't think in that fashion at all.

As far as how many dogs are spared "uthenasia" any one day because I showed up at an animal rights meeting vs how many children I could "save" at a cancer hospital that same day - I try to look at the overall picture, the overall good, and don't expect instant success and/or gratification.

I have said it before on one of these threads and I'll say it again now - nothing is going to be accomplished in one day.

I agree Judy.

I have volunteered at the Cross Cancer Clinic in Edmonton, even worked there for a year. Both my parents died of cancer, so I do what I can.

I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nurse, I'm just a person who has been greatly effected by cancer.

Not many people with cancer come here to AMHD looking for advice. You may take a look at my past posts though, I'm all over this board, not just in the pets forum. I'm compassionate when I need to be, tough when I need to be and angry when I need to be. Sadly, when it comes to BYB's, yes, I get angry a lot!

Sajjw, my first post to you in this forum was to let you know "no hard feelings". Then I had some time to think about it re-read your post and felt as though you set us all up, questioned our integrity, our usefullness to this site. Yes, that upset me. I've been here for over a year. I put a lot of thought into the things that I write. I take the questions in the pet forum very seriously and do my best to give accurate information. But, time and time again we get BYB's (the breed of choice now is Dachshunds) coming here asking simple questions. Why should I Google it and post a link? They obviously have internet access, they can Google just as well as I can. Also, if they don't get the info from me, maybe they'll have to go to the vet or a legitimate breeder and spend some money in order to profit from their "beloved pet".

When it's a real problem, I don't turn away. But I don't think that answering "When can I breed my dog?" is a real problem, other then the fact that they want to breed their dog.

Sajjw, I still welcome you to AMHD, if you have something to offer, but, if you think you're going to change the way we do things, you will get a fight from me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

If you want to offer breeding advice to BYB's, that's your choice, your right, but I don't have to do the same.

I, for one, am immensely grateful for the work Alty does on the pets forum. And, of course, she isn't the only one. And I especially appreciate the time and care she puts into her posts, whatever the subject-matter. There are some prominent posters here who appear to put little or no effort into their posts: one or two liners, next to no punctuation, clearly no real effort to be intelligible to the average reader, and advice that is just as clearly not the product of much thought or consideration. Not only is that not helpful, but it puts a bad face on AMHD.

Alty, Starby, Judy, Silver, Linny and several others consistently write long, thoughtful, informed posts. This has to count for something in and of itself, because it registers real effort. When a BYB is chastised, that chastisement is accompanied by actual information, which I take it is rather the point of having a Q&A site. Sometimes the best way to answer a question is to explain why the question is the wrong one, the wrong kind of question, because it is iteself based on misinformation or thoughtlessness. To point this out to someone is to do them a favor, whether they see it in that light or not.

If someone posts a question asking for advice on the best method for murdering his wife, the only answer that can reasonably be given would consist in an argument against murdering his wife. If someone posts a question asking about the best method for beating a child, again, the best thing anyone can do is to try to get the poster to see that beating a child would be a grave mistake. And if someone posts asking for advice on the best way to breed a dog, the best answer that any of us can give is a reasoned account of the wrongfulness of that practice. I think that the people whose names I mentioned above have comported themselves responsibly, and I hope that they will continue the good work they have begun.

Akoue, you forgot to add your name to that list. Your advice on the pet forums is always appreciated, well thought out, accurate and caring.

The only think I will say is that I could be nicer to some of these BYB's. But, when you're on your 5th "I want to breed my Dachshund" thread in 2 hours, you tend to get a bit frustrated because what you are saying is obviously not sinking in.

Someone has to speak out for the animals, they don't have a voice, they can't tell their owners "really, I don't want to have a litter of pups". We are their voice, and I for one will make myself heard and hope that what I say makes a difference.

Do we change the world? No. But if just one person doesn't breed their dog because of what we said, well, to me that's worth the effort.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I agree Judy.

I have volunteered at the Cross Cancer Clinic in Edmonton, even worked there for a year. Both my parents died of cancer, so I do what I can.

I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nurse, I'm just a person who has been greatly effected by cancer..

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You don't owe anyone an explanation for anything, not at all girlfriend, not at all. You know where I've been and I know where you've been. I can barely walk into a hospital right now. I went to a wake Friday night and thought I was going to faint. I do what I can, where I can, for the causes I can handle right now.

You owe no one anything. Not me, not anyone.

Those of us who are regulars have really clear vision when it comes to each other.

True Judy, very true. It's amazing how clearly we see each other even though we've never met. I realize that new people coming to this site don't know us, don't understand us, don't know what we've been through, seen, survived. We're a close knit bunch, but we're always willing to add new people to the mix, it's what makes AMHD such a great place.

What I don't like is new people who come here, go around giving reddies before they even know us, heck, sometimes before they even post and then expect us to just accept everything they say as fact. If I'm disrespected my gut instinct is to be disrespectful back. Heck, I'm human, can't help it.

This is a community, we have people from all over the world, all walks of life, I love that aspect of AMHD, I welcome it, I learn from it and that's why I'm still here after 1 year.

I just wish that people wouldn't come here just to cause chaos, to fight, to disagree without every questioning anything.

Big hug to you Judy. Hopefully this thread will serve itself. Maybe some of the newer members will better understand us and our stand. Who knows, this could turn out to be a good thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

What I don't like is new people who come here, go around giving reddies before they even know us, heck, sometimes before they even post and then expect us to just accept everything they say as fact. If I'm disrespected my gut instinct is to be disrespectful back. Heck, I'm human, can't help it.
.

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I am always amazed by the total sense of entitlement that people have - I stood in the background and read and read before I posted a single word. I was careful not to step on toes. I said, "I don't agree because -" if that happened to be the case. I didn't sign on, offend as many people as I could and then unveil my plan to improve AMHD and change the World (that came later - :D).

I have the same chant - don't people read OTHER posts by the same people, compare them, before they respond, particularly when the post is inflammatory?

I locked horns big time with one of my favorite people on these boards the very first time she and I posted on the same subject. We really couldn't stand each other and so we avoided each other. Now if I don't get at least a line from her every day, I go looking for her. I respect her opinions; I trust she respects mine. We never got nasty. We just don't always agree.

I agree to disagree with many people on this site, because I know that they are good people, just have a different opinion or outlook than I do.

I didn't jump right in either, especially since I didn't come here originally to answer questions but to find answers about my german passport and my mother-in-laws will.

Then I started reading people's questions, got into a few heated discussion (not angry, just heated) got a few greenies because people liked what I said, got a few reddies because people didn't like what I said (back then you could still give reddies just because you disagreed, not because the info was incorrect). I started liking it here, made a few friends and voilà, here I am.

I love AMHD and it's important to me that the information and advice we give is accurate. I don't always make friends when someone comes to ask a question and I disagree, but there have been many times that someone has butted heads with me, called me names, told me to go to hell and then later came back and said "hmmm, I see your point". So, you, I think it's worth it.

If we didn't have new people coming here there wouldn't be a site, but if we just gave sugar coated, sweet as pie, tell them what they want to hear, not the truth answers, well there wouldn't be much to brag about then either.

[QUOTE=JudyKayTee;1579948]I am always amazed by the total sense of entitlement that people have - I stood in the background and read and read before I posted a single word. I was careful not to step on toes. I said, "I don't agree because -" if that happened to be the case. I didn't sign on, offend as many people as I could and then unveil my plan to improve AMHD and change the World (that came later - :D).

I have the same chant - don't people read OTHER posts by the same people, compare them, before they respond, particularly when the post is inflammatory?



I am also always dumbfounded when newbies join, don't read the rules or regs until we ask for them to do so. Then they turn around and point out the rules to you, and try and tell YOU what you are doing wrong, after their 30 something posts. I think that to come here and start questioning our ability to "handle" the questions we get day in and day out, whether it be in the pet forum or another, is rather presumptuous, and quite frankly, rude.

There are many valued members, that commit many hours of their "free" time, to help people with their problems, and this is done in many different areas! The pet forum being only one of those places. We sometimes spend hrs. days, weeks, and occasionally months, researching, helping, and sometimes just being a shoulder. So when someone comes here, answers a handful of questions, and decides to question our ability or knowledge, is like a slap in the face.

This isn't just your run of the mill advice site. To me, as well as many others, this is a family community of people who support one another. We know that we can look to each other for support, and just as family does, the ones we trust have our backs.

The pet forum in particular, but not excluding other forums, is full of genuine and caring people. Alty, Linny, Judy, Akoue, Tickle, Silver, (if I've forgotten anyone, you know I didn't mean to) are an integral part of our family community. I'm proud to call these people my friends. So if you question one of us, or tell us how to "handle" things, it's best to be prepared to deal with us all. This isn't our first rodeo.

I will say, I got a lovely message from Sajjw and I do believe we all got off on the wrong foot with her. Let's let bygones be bygones and move forward.

We all remember what it was like when we first joined AMHD, it wasn't always easy to be the newcomer amongst people who had been here for years, knew the ins and outs, the way the site ran. You can read the rules, follow the rules but it's still often difficult to get into the flow of things until you've been around for a while.

So my peeps, the past is in the past, we look forward, K? Don't make me bring out my whip, you know I will. ;)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I will say, I got a lovely message from Sajjw and I do believe we all got off on the wrong foot with her. Let's let bygones be bygones and move forward.

We all remember what it was like when we first joined AMHD, it wasn't always easy to be the newcomer amongst people who had been here for years, knew the ins and outs, the way the site ran. You can read the rules, follow the rules but it's still often difficult to get into the flow of things until you've been around for a while.

So my peeps, the past is in the past, we look forward, K? Don't make me bring out my whip, you know I will. ;)

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It's your board, your playing field, your decision. I will say that this is one of the reasons I do not like PM's, messages off the Board.

In total honesty I'm the one who got the totally undeserved (I believe) reddie, completely misquoting both the content and intent of my post. Now you've exchanged messages, all is well - and here I stand.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today.

It's definitely not my board, and even less my decision. The PM was just a request to clear the air, more personal then it was public. I can't share what was said, unless Sajjw wants to post it publicly but I mentioned it because I want you all to know why I've had a change of heart (yes, I have a heart! ;)).

I'm sorry Judy, and you're right, the reddie was undeserved, but it happens a lot with new people on the site that don't know how things work. I realize that reading the rules would have prevented this from happening, but that's another thing that newbies rarely do, read the rules.

Let's give it a chance, see what happens and move on from there. Okay? :)

Big hug to you Judy, you know I adore you! As for the bad mood, heck, I know how you feel, I don't remember when I was last in a good mood. I'm blaming it on the weather, the yucky, yucky weather. Poo, I hate winter!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

It's your board, your playing field, your decision. I will say that this is one of the reasons I do not like PM's, messages off the Board.

In total honesty I'm the one who got the totally undeserved (I believe) reddie, completely misquoting both the content and intent of my post. Now you've exchanged messages, all is well - and here I stand.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today.

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I agree Judy, and if apologies were made, I think they should have been made across the board to all involved, and not to just a few. I don't think I should have to be reminded of the rules, and reprimanded in a reddie, by a newbie.

I also had said in the other thread that it may have been a misunderstanding, and was quite willing to just move on, only to see this thread the very next day, which I believe was right after the apology received by Linny.

But I digress, maybe I'm in a bad mood today also!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

It's definitely not my board, and even less my decision. The PM was just a request to clear the air, more personal then it was public. I can't share what was said, unless Sajjw wants to post it publicly but I mentioned it because I want you all to know why I've had a change of heart (yes, I have a heart! ;)).

I'm sorry Judy, and you're right, the reddie was undeserved, but it happens alot with new people on the site that don't know how things work. I realize that reading the rules would have prevented this from happening, but that's another thing that newbies rarely do, read the rules.

Let's give it a chance, see what happens and move on from there. Okay? :)

Big hug to you Judy, you know I adore you! As for the bad mood, heck, I know how you feel, I don't remember when I was last in a good mood. I'm blaming it on the weather, the yucky, yucky weather. Poo, I hate winter!

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When I said "your board" I meant that I respect your wishes on this board - this is where you hang out and post and know people and personalities and I'm just a person who wanders in and out. What works for you here works for me.

As far as the weather - I agree. I also am in about my 10th day of a positively horrible cough. I sound like Daffy Duck on speed. Sometimes when I open my mouth Carol Channing comes out; other times it's more like the Exorcist. I had no voice for about 3 days so my husband's prayers WERE eventually answered. Unfortunately, he wasn't here to enjoy the silence. :) I need some sun and sand - soon.

"You guys" pulled my tail through a terrible, terrible year so if things are OK with you, things are OK with me.

With me, it wasn't the reddie - I get lots of reddies, all from "newbies," all one time wonders (so to speak). It was the CONTENT of the reddie. My dog is suffering? I said it's okay to kennel a dog all day? Never said it, never intended to say it. That's what got to me. If I say something and you don't agree, fine. Don't agree. But don't put words in my mouth and don't deliberately misunderstand me.

I love you Alty, but I think you're being played. But life goes on. I'll go back to the legal threads and life will go on.

Love you back - you know you're my Canadian sister, eh? (running for cover)