[vwdieseljunkie]

So a loving family that loves thier pets and finds them good homes are bad, but a commercial operation where they do it "professionally" which often means the animals are not family members but livestock is good. Am I missing something,

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, and to voice that opinion (hopefully in a controlled, constructive manner). I myself am liable to throw off into a temper tantrum because of my lack of desire to see something from another's point of view. But because I disagree or even agree with anything, doesn't make anything right or wrong.

Pet vs. livestock brings up a good point though, Fr_Chuck. I think back to the farm I lived on, and the number of animals that died on a regular basis. The PETA-types,(this is used in bad taste and very generic, sorry) if they were to have seen what my animals were going through on a regular basis, they would have declared war on my family! Dogs died on a regular basis from injuries from wild hogs, coyotes, bobcats, snake bites or being trampled. But that was their job, to keep vermin at bay and away from the livestock and gardens. Cats died VERY regularly from snake bites, rodents and other varmints, but that too, was their job, to keep those things out of the yard, barn, and feed house. 80% of the animals on our hill were raised with intent to be butchered and consumed or sold for others to eat. The other 20% had to provide a service from the horses pulling plows, dogs protecting the livestock, to the cats keeping vermin in check.

Sometimes the difference between breeding dogs and breeding livestock is null and void, but most of the time it's night and day. Just as I would REFUSE to have anything to do with aiding someone who breeds, inbreeds, over breeds pits, rotts, dobies, etc for fighting, they could say that I am a hypocrite and that my having bred dogs to fight coyotes and such is no different. If that is their opinion, and they can rationalize it, there's no arguing them out of it, right or wrong. Most of you will think I am in the wrong for breeding dogs knowing the high probability they would live a short, hard life with a very little if any concept of luxury, but that was how it was back then and even OUR survival could depend upon an animal's ability to do it's intended job.

Granted, as a general rule, I see absolutely NO argument for not having your animals spayed/neutered. That simple thing absolutely, positively prevents accidental breeding. If you are not SPECIFICALLY intending on breeding and animal, is should be fixed to prevent the inevitable. An animal in heat will seek a male just as aggressively as a male will seek a female in heat. I've seen animals bred THROUGH cages. There's no excuse not to fix an animal that is going to be a pet. But you can't force people to do so. So it's a problem that will never go away. You cat put forth the effort to educate everyone that you can, and sometimes you will have some successes, but most often you will fail. The few successes you may have far outweigh the failures, even though in the long run, in the grand scheme, you haven't really accomplished anything. You keep 10% of BYB's from breeding, and guess what, the same number of animals still die in the shelter every week. But you will know you have done something.

Educate who you can, but don't force it upon them. Let them know how you feel on the subject, let them see your side, but don't damn them because they don't agree with you (no matter how much you want to.)

If a BYB is posting asking questions about a botched litter of puppies, are you doing any worse by not posting at all, than to jump on them and shove an agenda down their throat about how wrong they are because of the numbers of unwanted animals dying in the pound every week? Or you could try to help them save the animals they can, and strongly plead with them to fix ALL of the animals in question to prevent it from happening again.

Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll give you a reddie.

[JudyKayTee]

Pet vs. livestock brings up a good point though, Fr_Chuck. I think back to the farm I lived on, and the number of animals that died on a regular basis. The PETA-types,(this is used in bad taste and very generic, sorry) if they were to have seen what my animals were going through on a regular basis, they would have declared war on my family!

I DO find it offensive and bad taste to refer to people who are involved in animal rights in general, specifically breeding house PETS, to be "PETA-types." I'm not a member of PETA, never have been, certainly don't agree with many of their ideas,
But I DO consider myself to be an animal activist, Throwing around labels as you have done does nothing to resolve the conflict and I believe it further alienates the parties.

I see absolutely no comparison to your experience with working dogs (and, apparently cats and other animals) and breeding designer dogs for profit, none at all.

You apparently did or do live in a farm - I would never dream of calling you a farmer type or redneck or whatever derogatory term is used in your part of the country, yet you call me a PETA-type and don't even blink.

Once again - amazing.

[JudyKayTee]

(Quote)...I was criticised by 'Tickle' for mentioning breeding although this person knows nothing about me!! The facts are, that last year I bred a beautiful litter of Irish Setters in the south of England where there is a shortage of this lovely breed. If it wasn't for people like me this beautiful breed would die out... And I was warned that I would be considered a so called 'backyard breeder' whatever that is! I didn't bother to waste my time explaining... (unquote)

I have already posted that in hindsight, I realise that this was a silly thing to say and now wonder how long it is going to be thrown in my face for..

I would be interested (very interested, in fact) in the facts behind the shortage of Irish Setters in the South of England and the breed dying out if it were not for backyard breeders and their noble efforts. I can't find anything anywhere about this. In the US if there's a "shortage" of Setters in one State, they are simply transported there from another. Apparently not the same in England?

[vwdieseljunkie]

As a matter of fact I DO find it offensive and bad taste to refer to people who are involved in animal rights in general, specifically breeding house PETS, to be "PETA-types." I'm not a member of PETA, never have been, certainly don't agree with many of their ideas,
but I DO consider myself to be an animal activist, Throwing around labels as you have done does nothing to resolve the conflict and I believe it further alienates the parties.

Though that was not my intention, I don't disagree with you. I lack tact on an astronomical scale. My own opinions being my own, sway every aspect of who I am and how I present myself, sometime to my own detriment. Again, it was not my intention to offend, and I admitted it was in bad taste.

I see absolutely no comparison to your experience with working dogs (and, apparently cats and other animals) and breeding designer dogs for profit, none at all.

I had good intentions, and it made sense to me at first, but being able to relay my thoughts on the subject in a manner that can be understood by others readily, well, is a weak point. I even type and edit myself with overwhelming attention deficit.

You apparently did or do live in a farm - I would never dream of calling you a farmer type or redneck or whatever derogatory term is used in your part of the country, yet you call me a PETA-type and don't even blink. Once again - amazing.

I've been called worse, and would qualify for both of those titles, but don't take offense even if it were meant to be offensive. The main source of that quote "PETA-type" stems from the anger I myself hold towards people who easily pass a children's cancer hospital without blinking to get to an animal rights protest. Again, this was probably very poor choosing of words and very generic, but I'm stating it to be so. To actual call YOU, or any specifc person a "PETA-type", or any other title, or to compare an extremist to an activist, was not implied. Sorry if it came across that way.

To the point of the thread though, how to handle the subject specifically on AMHD, still seems "tounge in cheek" to me, because everyone can take and firmly hold to their own strong opinions on the matter, myself included, and with the intentions of helping get a point across, or to offer a different point of view for the better understanding by all, sometimes ends up being a rant that misses the original point of the thread. It happens often, and you folks who have been here for a long time pouring your hearts and minds out on this forum know this. Every subject isn't as cut and dry as we would like it to be, or it would be super easy, and the average topic would consist of one question, one answer, end of topic. I'm likely the world's worst on jumping onto a tangent and missing the point, though not intentionally, and end up not actually helping anyone and make myself sound like an ignorant boob, good intentions or not.

[JudyKayTee]

The main source of that quote "PETA-type" stems from the anger I myself hold towards people who easily pass a children's cancer hospital without blinking to get to an animal rights protest. .

I think we agree on lots of points here. My final word, though, would be that if I do stop at that children's cancer hospital, what good can I do there? If I go to an animal rights meeting I can make a difference.

Please don't assume that because I am involved in animal rights I am NOT involved in any other causes - children, adults or anything in between - because that is NOT the case,

[vwdieseljunkie]

I think we agree on lots of points here. My final word, though, would be that if I do stop at that children's cancer hospital, what good can I do there? If I go to an animal rights meeting I can make a difference.

What good can you do at a children's cancer hospital? That's totally up to you and how much time/money/effort you want to donate, same as with a animal rights meeting. It's every individual's choice what they do with their available resources. Granted I don't know of anyone who is going to walk into a children's hospital and miraculously start curing these children, but how many dogs will be spared uthenization that day and because you showed up at an animal rights meeting? I've often wondered what percentage of the money my wife and I donate to the local humane society goes towards buying buying the uthenasia injection? It's not things we have absolute control over, and have to hope for the best. If we found out that all of our donation was used solely for purchasing the death injection, it would make us feel as though our donation was in vain. You have to do what you can and hope that it has the best outcome.

Please don't assume that because I am involved in animal rights I am NOT involved in any other causes - children, adults or anything in between - because that is NOT the case,

Not the case at all! There is nothing that I say meant to be a personal attack on anyone, unless I specifically call you out by name, which I can't see me doing. So often do I see a general statement taken as a personal attack on this forum, and not that I am saying this is the case here, because I don't know, you may simply be trying to get a point across just as I am, but so often things are taken so personally. In an online forum you don't get to see the emotion or the tone of voice of a conversation or body language to occompany what you are reading from text, and that creates an environment of complication where it was not intended. That sort of brings me back to whether to post at all to a question, would the lack of an attempt to answer be better or worse than to answer at all? I confound myself with this regularly! Take this thread for example, I don't see where any of my involvement has been beneficial at all, even though I had the best of intentions. I may not have even come close to getting a valid point across at all, because I can't know that anything I say here will be read with the same frame of mind I was in when I posted it. It's a craps shoot and you have to hope for the best sometimes.

[JudyKayTee]

Please don't change horses in midstream - your quote referred to people who pass children's cancer hospitals without blinking while driving to an animal rights protest. Now it's turned into something else, where your time makes the most difference and so forth, and where your donations are going. For the record, I don't think "uthenasia" (as you put it) is the worst thing that can happen to unwanted, homeless pets. Not a popular opinion, I'm sure, but don't think in that fashion at all.

As far as how many dogs are spared "uthenasia" any one day because I showed up at an animal rights meeting vs how many children I could "save" at a cancer hospital that same day - I try to look at the overall picture, the overall good, and don't expect instant success and/or gratification.

I have said it before on one of these threads and I'll say it again now - nothing is going to be accomplished in one day.

[Alty]

I agree Judy.

I have volunteered at the Cross Cancer Clinic in Edmonton, even worked there for a year. Both my parents died of cancer, so I do what I can.

I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nurse, I'm just a person who has been greatly effected by cancer.

Not many people with cancer come here to AMHD looking for advice. You may take a look at my past posts though, I'm all over this board, not just in the pets forum. I'm compassionate when I need to be, tough when I need to be and angry when I need to be. Sadly, when it comes to BYB's, yes, I get angry a lot!

Sajjw, my first post to you in this forum was to let you know "no hard feelings". Then I had some time to think about it re-read your post and felt as though you set us all up, questioned our integrity, our usefullness to this site. Yes, that upset me. I've been here for over a year. I put a lot of thought into the things that I write. I take the questions in the pet forum very seriously and do my best to give accurate information. But, time and time again we get BYB's (the breed of choice now is Dachshunds) coming here asking simple questions. Why should I Google it and post a link? They obviously have internet access, they can Google just as well as I can. Also, if they don't get the info from me, maybe they'll have to go to the vet or a legitimate breeder and spend some money in order to profit from their "beloved pet".

When it's a real problem, I don't turn away. But I don't think that answering "When can I breed my dog?" is a real problem, other then the fact that they want to breed their dog.

Sajjw, I still welcome you to AMHD, if you have something to offer, but, if you think you're going to change the way we do things, you will get a fight from me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

If you want to offer breeding advice to BYB's, that's your choice, your right, but I don't have to do the same.

[Akoue]

I, for one, am immensely grateful for the work Alty does on the pets forum. And, of course, she isn't the only one. And I especially appreciate the time and care she puts into her posts, whatever the subject-matter. There are some prominent posters here who appear to put little or no effort into their posts: one or two liners, next to no punctuation, clearly no real effort to be intelligible to the average reader, and advice that is just as clearly not the product of much thought or consideration. Not only is that not helpful, but it puts a bad face on AMHD.

Alty, Starby, Judy, Silver, Linny and several others consistently write long, thoughtful, informed posts. This has to count for something in and of itself, because it registers real effort. When a BYB is chastised, that chastisement is accompanied by actual information, which I take it is rather the point of having a Q&A site. Sometimes the best way to answer a question is to explain why the question is the wrong one, the wrong kind of question, because it is iteself based on misinformation or thoughtlessness. To point this out to someone is to do them a favor, whether they see it in that light or not.

If someone posts a question asking for advice on the best method for murdering his wife, the only answer that can reasonably be given would consist in an argument against murdering his wife. If someone posts a question asking about the best method for beating a child, again, the best thing anyone can do is to try to get the poster to see that beating a child would be a grave mistake. And if someone posts asking for advice on the best way to breed a dog, the best answer that any of us can give is a reasoned account of the wrongfulness of that practice. I think that the people whose names I mentioned above have comported themselves responsibly, and I hope that they will continue the good work they have begun.

[Alty]

Akoue, you forgot to add your name to that list. Your advice on the pet forums is always appreciated, well thought out, accurate and caring.

The only think I will say is that I could be nicer to some of these BYB's. But, when you're on your 5th "I want to breed my Dachshund" thread in 2 hours, you tend to get a bit frustrated because what you are saying is obviously not sinking in.

Someone has to speak out for the animals, they don't have a voice, they can't tell their owners "really, I don't want to have a litter of pups". We are their voice, and I for one will make myself heard and hope that what I say makes a difference.

Do we change the world? No. But if just one person doesn't breed their dog because of what we said, well, to me that's worth the effort.

[JudyKayTee]

I agree Judy.

I have volunteered at the Cross Cancer Clinic in Edmonton, even worked there for a year. Both my parents died of cancer, so I do what I can.

I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nurse, I'm just a person who has been greatly effected by cancer..

You don't owe anyone an explanation for anything, not at all girlfriend, not at all. You know where I've been and I know where you've been. I can barely walk into a hospital right now. I went to a wake Friday night and thought I was going to faint. I do what I can, where I can, for the causes I can handle right now.

You owe no one anything. Not me, not anyone.

Those of us who are regulars have really clear vision when it comes to each other.

[Alty]

True Judy, very true. It's amazing how clearly we see each other even though we've never met. I realize that new people coming to this site don't know us, don't understand us, don't know what we've been through, seen, survived. We're a close knit bunch, but we're always willing to add new people to the mix, it's what makes AMHD such a great place.

What I don't like is new people who come here, go around giving reddies before they even know us, heck, sometimes before they even post and then expect us to just accept everything they say as fact. If I'm disrespected my gut instinct is to be disrespectful back. Heck, I'm human, can't help it.

This is a community, we have people from all over the world, all walks of life, I love that aspect of AMHD, I welcome it, I learn from it and that's why I'm still here after 1 year.

I just wish that people wouldn't come here just to cause chaos, to fight, to disagree without every questioning anything.

Big hug to you Judy. Hopefully this thread will serve itself. Maybe some of the newer members will better understand us and our stand. Who knows, this could turn out to be a good thing.

[JudyKayTee]

What I don't like is new people who come here, go around giving reddies before they even know us, heck, sometimes before they even post and then expect us to just accept everything they say as fact. If I'm disrespected my gut instinct is to be disrespectful back. Heck, I'm human, can't help it.
.

I am always amazed by the total sense of entitlement that people have - I stood in the background and read and read before I posted a single word. I was careful not to step on toes. I said, "I don't agree because -" if that happened to be the case. I didn't sign on, offend as many people as I could and then unveil my plan to improve AMHD and change the World (that came later - :D).

I have the same chant - don't people read OTHER posts by the same people, compare them, before they respond, particularly when the post is inflammatory?

I locked horns big time with one of my favorite people on these boards the very first time she and I posted on the same subject. We really couldn't stand each other and so we avoided each other. Now if I don't get at least a line from her every day, I go looking for her. I respect her opinions; I trust she respects mine. We never got nasty. We just don't always agree.

[Alty]

I agree to disagree with many people on this site, because I know that they are good people, just have a different opinion or outlook than I do.

I didn't jump right in either, especially since I didn't come here originally to answer questions but to find answers about my german passport and my mother-in-laws will.

Then I started reading people's questions, got into a few heated discussion (not angry, just heated) got a few greenies because people liked what I said, got a few reddies because people didn't like what I said (back then you could still give reddies just because you disagreed, not because the info was incorrect). I started liking it here, made a few friends and voilà, here I am.

I love AMHD and it's important to me that the information and advice we give is accurate. I don't always make friends when someone comes to ask a question and I disagree, but there have been many times that someone has butted heads with me, called me names, told me to go to hell and then later came back and said "hmmm, I see your point". So, you, I think it's worth it.

If we didn't have new people coming here there wouldn't be a site, but if we just gave sugar coated, sweet as pie, tell them what they want to hear, not the truth answers, well there wouldn't be much to brag about then either.

[starbuck8]

[QUOTE=JudyKayTee;1579948]I am always amazed by the total sense of entitlement that people have - I stood in the background and read and read before I posted a single word. I was careful not to step on toes. I said, "I don't agree because -" if that happened to be the case. I didn't sign on, offend as many people as I could and then unveil my plan to improve AMHD and change the World (that came later - :D).

I have the same chant - don't people read OTHER posts by the same people, compare them, before they respond, particularly when the post is inflammatory?



I am also always dumbfounded when newbies join, don't read the rules or regs until we ask for them to do so. Then they turn around and point out the rules to you, and try and tell YOU what you are doing wrong, after their 30 something posts. I think that to come here and start questioning our ability to "handle" the questions we get day in and day out, whether it be in the pet forum or another, is rather presumptuous, and quite frankly, rude.

There are many valued members, that commit many hours of their "free" time, to help people with their problems, and this is done in many different areas! The pet forum being only one of those places. We sometimes spend hrs. days, weeks, and occasionally months, researching, helping, and sometimes just being a shoulder. So when someone comes here, answers a handful of questions, and decides to question our ability or knowledge, is like a slap in the face.

This isn't just your run of the mill advice site. To me, as well as many others, this is a family community of people who support one another. We know that we can look to each other for support, and just as family does, the ones we trust have our backs.

The pet forum in particular, but not excluding other forums, is full of genuine and caring people. Alty, Linny, Judy, Akoue, Tickle, Silver, (if I've forgotten anyone, you know I didn't mean to) are an integral part of our family community. I'm proud to call these people my friends. So if you question one of us, or tell us how to "handle" things, it's best to be prepared to deal with us all. This isn't our first rodeo.

[Alty]

I will say, I got a lovely message from Sajjw and I do believe we all got off on the wrong foot with her. Let's let bygones be bygones and move forward.

We all remember what it was like when we first joined AMHD, it wasn't always easy to be the newcomer amongst people who had been here for years, knew the ins and outs, the way the site ran. You can read the rules, follow the rules but it's still often difficult to get into the flow of things until you've been around for a while.

So my peeps, the past is in the past, we look forward, K? Don't make me bring out my whip, you know I will. ;)

[JudyKayTee]

I will say, I got a lovely message from Sajjw and I do believe we all got off on the wrong foot with her. Let's let bygones be bygones and move forward.

We all remember what it was like when we first joined AMHD, it wasn't always easy to be the newcomer amongst people who had been here for years, knew the ins and outs, the way the site ran. You can read the rules, follow the rules but it's still often difficult to get into the flow of things until you've been around for a while.

So my peeps, the past is in the past, we look forward, K? Don't make me bring out my whip, you know I will. ;)

It's your board, your playing field, your decision. I will say that this is one of the reasons I do not like PM's, messages off the Board.

In total honesty I'm the one who got the totally undeserved (I believe) reddie, completely misquoting both the content and intent of my post. Now you've exchanged messages, all is well - and here I stand.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today.

[Alty]

It's definitely not my board, and even less my decision. The PM was just a request to clear the air, more personal then it was public. I can't share what was said, unless Sajjw wants to post it publicly but I mentioned it because I want you all to know why I've had a change of heart (yes, I have a heart! ;)).

I'm sorry Judy, and you're right, the reddie was undeserved, but it happens a lot with new people on the site that don't know how things work. I realize that reading the rules would have prevented this from happening, but that's another thing that newbies rarely do, read the rules.

Let's give it a chance, see what happens and move on from there. Okay? :)

Big hug to you Judy, you know I adore you! As for the bad mood, heck, I know how you feel, I don't remember when I was last in a good mood. I'm blaming it on the weather, the yucky, yucky weather. Poo, I hate winter!

[starbuck8]

It's your board, your playing field, your decision. I will say that this is one of the reasons I do not like PM's, messages off the Board.

In total honesty I'm the one who got the totally undeserved (I believe) reddie, completely misquoting both the content and intent of my post. Now you've exchanged messages, all is well - and here I stand.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today.

I agree Judy, and if apologies were made, I think they should have been made across the board to all involved, and not to just a few. I don't think I should have to be reminded of the rules, and reprimanded in a reddie, by a newbie.

I also had said in the other thread that it may have been a misunderstanding, and was quite willing to just move on, only to see this thread the very next day, which I believe was right after the apology received by Linny.

But I digress, maybe I'm in a bad mood today also!

[JudyKayTee]

It's definitely not my board, and even less my decision. The PM was just a request to clear the air, more personal then it was public. I can't share what was said, unless Sajjw wants to post it publicly but I mentioned it because I want you all to know why I've had a change of heart (yes, I have a heart! ;)).

I'm sorry Judy, and you're right, the reddie was undeserved, but it happens alot with new people on the site that don't know how things work. I realize that reading the rules would have prevented this from happening, but that's another thing that newbies rarely do, read the rules.

Let's give it a chance, see what happens and move on from there. Okay? :)

Big hug to you Judy, you know I adore you! As for the bad mood, heck, I know how you feel, I don't remember when I was last in a good mood. I'm blaming it on the weather, the yucky, yucky weather. Poo, I hate winter!

When I said "your board" I meant that I respect your wishes on this board - this is where you hang out and post and know people and personalities and I'm just a person who wanders in and out. What works for you here works for me.

As far as the weather - I agree. I also am in about my 10th day of a positively horrible cough. I sound like Daffy Duck on speed. Sometimes when I open my mouth Carol Channing comes out; other times it's more like the Exorcist. I had no voice for about 3 days so my husband's prayers WERE eventually answered. Unfortunately, he wasn't here to enjoy the silence. :) I need some sun and sand - soon.

"You guys" pulled my tail through a terrible, terrible year so if things are OK with you, things are OK with me.

With me, it wasn't the reddie - I get lots of reddies, all from "newbies," all one time wonders (so to speak). It was the CONTENT of the reddie. My dog is suffering? I said it's okay to kennel a dog all day? Never said it, never intended to say it. That's what got to me. If I say something and you don't agree, fine. Don't agree. But don't put words in my mouth and don't deliberately misunderstand me.

I love you Alty, but I think you're being played. But life goes on. I'll go back to the legal threads and life will go on.

Love you back - you know you're my Canadian sister, eh? (running for cover)