Ask Me Help Desk - Mosque at Ground Zero

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catsmine

Sauce for the goose, man.

Hello again, Cats:

I'm remarkably consistent in my support for the Constitution. If you followed me for any length of time, you'd know that I don't have LISTS.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Cats:

I'm remarkably consistent in my support for the Constitution. If you followed me for any length of time, you'd know that I don't have LISTS.

excon

Actually my objection is not to the mosque itself. After all there are already a couple nearby and upgrading or moving to a bigger place is no big deal. What I find objectionable is the "Center," with its classrooms and training simulators. They have supposedly changed the name from "Cordoba Center," so it doesn't sound like a Triumphal Arch so much. The terrorist in charge of the center I would really like to see at Quantico. Marion, Ill. Would be another good place to put on his itinerary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catsmine

The terrorist in charge of the center I would really like to see at Quantico. Marion, Ill. would be another good place to put on his itinerary.

Hello again, Cats:

IF there are terrorists there, I'd like to see 'em busted too. But, you can't believe that our terrorist HATING government would let a KNOWN terrorist run around free. We, for SURE, wouldn't send him on a worldwide goodwill tour, and we are.

Let me adjust that a bit... You COULD believe it. I don't.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by darknald3

Pretty Ironic, they should leave it be in my opinion, it's a good tourist attraction and to build a mosque on it would be counterproductiv, I mean there are schools nearby and there's a lot of traffic in that area, not a good idea

The mosque won't be ON Ground Zero, but two blocks away.

What do schools and traffic have to do with anything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

The president SUPPORTS freedom of religion. Whaddya know about that? Last night, he said so. But he stepped up to the plate anyway.

Leaders lead - others read polls. This is what I expected of him from the get go. I guess it's better than nothing.

excon

Hello again,

He walked it back. He AIN'T no leader. Indeed, with this clarification, he's not really on any side of this controversy. What made Bloomberg's speech so inspiring was how unapologetic and emphatic it was in defense of the mosque itself, not just some sort of abstract "right" that very few people were even questioning. Obama sucks.

What's LOST in this debate, is WHAT we're actually debating... We're NOT discussing a mosque. We ARE discussing whether we BELIEVE in the freedoms documented in our beloved Constitution!

Freedom is messy. It's unpopular. But, if I had to choose between criticizing a citizen for seeking his rights, or supporting the Constitution that grants them, I'll choose the latter every time. Use it, or lose it, as the saying goes.

excon

Why do you object to our expressing our displeasure at the placement . You would defend their 1st amendment right by not mine.

The leader in this has been Governor Patterson. He alone has offered a reasonable solution to the issue.

The President backed away because he was taking heat from people in his own party who are up for reelection and know that this issue is a political loser for them. What he accomplished was making this a full blown national issue and for that I guess I got to give him kudos.Now Dem running this year will have to put their cards on the table .

That means you Schumer! That means you Gillibrand ! That means you Cuomo! All the Dems who have taken a low profile .

This is not a Constitutional rights issue ,it is a land use issue . It is part of the regular negotiations that goes on all over the country .

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

why do you object to our expressing our displeasure at the placement . You would defend their 1st amendment right by not mine.

Hello again, tom:

I don't OBJECT to you expressing your displeasure. In fact, I SUPPORT your right to be wrong.

excon

Actually, I believe we've all acknowledged those freedoms. And no, Zero is no leader. He not only 'walked it back,' he tortured history in order to suck up to Muslims.

Quote:

And tonight, we are reminded that Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity. And Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been a part of America. The first Muslim ambassador to the United States, from Tunisia, was hosted by President Jefferson, who arranged a sunset dinner for his guest because it was Ramadan —- making it the first known iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago. (Applause.)

That was a rather glorified version of the event. It was more like the first envoy from an Islamic terrorist organization, aka Barbary Pirates. He'd come seeking tribute and concubines.

Has anyone mentioned the only place of worship that was destroyed in the 911 attack? It was a Greek Orthodox Church, and from what I've read, they are having problems getting the permits to rebuild it.

Maybe the talk about putting up a new place of worship should take a back seat to discussion of rebuilding the one that was already there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJ

Maybe the talk about putting up a new place of worship should take a back seat to discussion of rebuilding the one that was already there.

Hello Rick:

I absolutely agree.

It should be understood, of course, that TALK has NOTHING to do with what a private party has the right to do, and is most likely, GOING to DO. We seem to have convinced ourselves that with enough TALK, somebody will STOP the mosque from being built. Nothing could be further from the truth. There IS no somebody. NOBODY has authority to STOP it. NOBODY.

The PROBLEM, as I read it, Rick, is that the REASON the church ISN'T being rebuilt is because they DID involved the government, by asking for stuff. If I was a church/mosque, I wouldn't ask the government for ANYTHING!

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello Rick:

I absolutely agree.

It should be understood, of course, that TALK has NOTHING to do with what a private party has the right to do, and is most likely, GOING to DO. We seems to have been convinced that with enough TALK, somebody will STOP the mosque from being built. Nothing could be further from the truth. There IS no somebody. NOBODY has authority to STOP it. NOBODY.

The PROBLEM, as I read it, Rick, is that the REASON the church ISN'T being rebuilt is because they DID involved the government, by asking for stuff. If I was a church/mosque, I wouldn't ask the government for ANYTHING!

excon

From what I'm reading permits are needed. Wouldn't that be the case whether the building to be built would be a Church, Mosque, Convenient store, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJ

From what I'm reading permits are needed. Wouldn't that be the case whether the building to be built would be a Church, Mosque, Convenient store, etc.?

Hello again, Rick:

Yes. But, I don't read anything that says the permits are being withheld because it's a church.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Rick:

Yes. But, I don't read anything that says the permits are being withheld because it's a church.

excon

You make a good point. I guess the emotional side of me comes out in this argument. I've heard that those that want to build the Mosque will not reveal their funding sources.

Maybe it's true that funding sources are not required under normal circumstances, but I'd sure hate to find out down the road that a Mosque built at ground zero was funded by people who also fund terrorists.

It would be an awesome victory for dirtbags.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJ

I've heard that those that want to build the Mosque will not reveal their funding sources.

Maybe it's true that funding sources are not required under normal circumstances, but I'd sure hate to find out down the road that a Mosque built at ground zero was funded by people who also fund terrorists.

It would be an awesome victory for dirtbags.

Hello again, Rick:

I would hate that too. However, even though they ARE, as you say, NOT required to divulge their funding under ordinary circumstances, I have confidence that their finances have been TORN apart by homeland security people LOOKING for exactly the stuff both you and I HOPE isn't there. We have given our government the authority to DO that, and I'm sure they have. I can promise you, the government has NOT been lenient nor gentle with ANY Islamic organization that has a bank account.

Of course, my confidence in government certainly could be misplaced. Maybe they're spending all their time spying on YOU & ME.

excon

I cannot argue with that. It seems clear to me that you and I and most of the people in this thread are of the same mind.

It's a crappy situation for sure. It would not surprise me if the State or the City of New York come up with new laws as to what can be built where - as a result of this situation.

And would that be right? I don't know. Maybe.

You know there are strip joints and stores selling X-rated DVD's in that same 2 block periphery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJ

It would not surprise me if the State or the City of New York come up with new laws as to what can be built where - as a result of this situation.

And would that be right? I don't know. Maybe.

Hello again, Rick:

As long as those laws don't conflict with our vaunted Constitution, I'm cool with 'em. But, it's pretty hard to tell ONE religion that they're not welcome here... Especially because freedom of religion is the MAIN reason we're even a country in the first place.

I wonder too, what this debate means to the Muslim soldier fighting along side our boys in the trenches. I don't know why we'd want to piss HIM off, but I'll bet we did. I HAVE said, that much of what WE DO, is the best recruitment tool Al Quaida could ever have. Of course, that's vociferously denied, cause we're the good guys.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You know there are strip joints and stores selling X-rated DVD's in that same 2 block periphery.

That's no surprise, but fortunately for them we weren't attacked by porn stars on 9/11.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Rick:

As long as those laws don't conflict with our vaunted Constitution, I'm cool with 'em. But, it's pretty hard to tell ONE religion that they're not welcome here... Especially because freedom of religion is the MAIN reason we're even a country in the first place.

I wonder too, what this debate means to the Muslim soldier fighting along side our boys in the trenches. I dunno why we'd wanna piss HIM off, but I'll bet we did. I HAVE said, along with others, that much of what WE DO, is the best recruitment tool Al Quaida could ever have. Of course, that's vociferously denied, cause we're the good guys.

excon

The good folks, including Muslim's, who fight in the trenches should, I think, have the same concerns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

That's no surprise, but fortunately for them we weren't attacked by porn stars on 9/11.

Hello again, Steve:

THAT, is a good one!

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You know there are strip joints and stores selling X-rated DVD's in that same 2 block periphery.

I'm sure that's true. I've got the same thing just 3 miles from my house. I don't like it but I'd certainly understand if a bunch of terrorist strippers blew up my downdown area, this thread would be about whether a new strip club could be built or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

That's no surprise, but fortunately for them we weren't attacked by porn stars on 9/11.

So you approve of strip joints at the hallowed Ground Zero then?

Remember, folks that sometimes new laws are made for new circumstances.

I, for one, would support the City in requiring that the financiers of new construction at a site where terrorists have attacked should disclose their funding sources.

I don't know what the language should be, but that's why I'm not a city planner or code enforcement officer.

I'm just a humble parent, taxpayer and forumaholic.

So what should go up at Ground Zero? It's been 10 years!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJ

I don't like it but I'd certainly understand if a bunch of terrorist strippers blew up my downdown area, this thread would be about whether a new strip club could be built or not.

Hello again, to both Rick Steve:

Here's the DISTINCTION we need to make. We were NOT attacked by Muslims. We were attacked by terrorists who HAPPEN to BE Muslim. If we were attacked by MUSLIMS, they'd ALL be attacking us, and they're NOT.

Tiller, the abortion doctor, was killed by a fanatic CHRISTIAN BECAUSE of his CHRISTIAN views. Does that mean that ALL Christians are our enemy??

We are NOT at war with Islam. But, stuff like THIS sure makes it look like we are. I didn't hear a SOLE say the Greek Orthodox church shouldn't be built, because Christians are terrorists... But, the mosque shouldn't be built because Muslims are WHAT??

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So what should go up at Ground Zero? It's been 10 years!

My first thought would be to put up what was destroyed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, to both Rick Steve:

Here's the DISTINCTION we need to make. We were NOT attacked by Muslims. We were attacked by terrorists who HAPPEN to BE Muslim.

Absolutely correct.

But if the attack were by the KKK, most of whom claim to be Baptists, and some Baptists wanted to build a church on the site, then I'd support making those Baptists disclose their funding sources.

I'd wonder why they wouldn't WANT to disclose their funding sources.

That's makes sense. Any idea why nothing has been done?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That's makes sense. Any idea why nothing has been done?

Done about what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJ

But if the attack were by the KKK, most of whom claim to be Baptists, and some Baptists wanted to build a church on the site, then I'd support making those Baptists disclose their funding sources.

The analogy is correct - the US should not allow a building built by terrorists. I'm pretty sure you guys will prevent that properly.

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Originally Posted by RickJ

Done about what?

Rebuilding on the site where the buildings were destroyed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The analogy is correct - the US should not allow a building built by terrorists. I'm pretty sure you guys will prevent that properly.

Amen. If I were sure of who was building it, I'd even send them a donation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So you approve of strip joints at the hallowed Ground Zero then?

My guess is they were there before the attack. But where's your sense of humor, that was funny.

For the record, I've already said they have the right to build there, but I don't think it's right. Also for the record, Harry Reid -the same guy who proposed ending birthright citizenship in 1993 - has decided opposing the mosque is the politically expedient thing to do.

Perhaps we'll see speech and Harry stripping/doing porn for donations to ban the mosque.

Hello again:

I've always thought that THIS image captured our feelings on 9/11. I'd LOVE to see a monument that looks like those three pieces of building.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/member...re593-zero.jpg

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Here's the DISTINCTION we need to make. We were NOT attacked by Muslims. We were attacked by terrorists who HAPPEN to BE Muslim.

I've made the distinction many times thank you, but funny that would you make the distinction you did about Tiller's killer but not the 9/11 terrorists. It wasn't just that they happened to be Muslims, we were attacked by Muslims in the name of Islam and Allah.

I think it more accurate that Tiller's killer happened to be a Christian, because there is no sect of Christianity murdering and terrorizing innocents for the cause of Christ.

I think there is a cultural issue going here. I don't know how to explain it, but I'll share my own experience.

I have a close friend and neighbor who is a local Muslim leader. His son plays with my sons. I love them. They are wonderful and loving people.

But the few discussions I've had about what they think about the 911 attack, they sort of clam up. I've never heard them say (despite my trying on many occasions to hear them say it) "Those people are not true Muslims".

I know well that there are several Muslim leaders in the US who have condemned the attacks - but I'm aware too that there are many others who are silent.

I don't get it.

I'm a Christian and I recognize that the KKK (for example) also claim to be Christian. Christian leaders throughout the US are loud and clear in saying [I paraphrase] "Even though these people claim to be Christian, they are NOT. They are terrorists and they should be rooted out and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law".

Again, I think it comes down to some cultural or religious differences that we need to learn how to deal with - and learn how to get them to open up a bit more.

I think I could write a book, so I'll stop rambling for now...

Looks like it's become an archeological dig now: 18th-Century Ship Found at Trade Center Site - City Room Blog - NYTimes.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I've made the distinction many times thank you,

Me too. If anyone searches this site for the term Muslim posted by me, they'll find that I am fully supportive.

In fact, I have a website of my own that is dedicated to Ecumenism, especially between Jews, Muslims and Christians - since we have so much in common as to the founding of our faiths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Perhaps we'll see speech and Harry stripping/doing porn for donations to ban the mosque.

Um, I haven't said anything about banning the mosque. But if Gutfeld would build it I just might donate to help build the gay bar next door as an outreach to gay Muslims. I hear there's been plenty of suggestions for naming the place.