[kanicky73]

I would be helping you startover, I don't think I could take another persons life even if it meant surviving. I guess I wouldn't make it then...

[startover22]

Yes I think I would need a lot of help, I go to the store for everything even the seeds for my garden out back. Thanks! I think a garden is what it would take for me to survive. I can squish a mosquito but I cannot be-head a chicken, let alone wound an animal. I would eat the chicken or big game that someone else killed but I wouldn't kill it. Isn't that weird...

[startover22]

I don't think I could have enough adrenaline to kill, but you never know what we might be able to do if we were out in that position. Scary, huh?

[DrJ]

No, I don't see animals the same as I do with civilization. I mean we can make our rules known and they can't really make rules, you know what I mean? If they could then I am not sure it would be the same for them anymore, they would make rules on finding their own mate without killing (like we do)

Hmmmm... many animals follow a set of rules and can even deter from those set rules. They still have the ability to do as they please... to a point. True, they are more driven by instinct and cannot reason.. but what I meant was exactly that... since they can't reason, why are they left on the side that so many of us see as evil or sin? Why wouldn't these otherwise sinless creatures get along without killing each other? Why would God allow this one and only sin be okay for all other creatures?

The other side to it is we kill for land as well. It has always been.
We also used to carry guns and use them at will way back when. What about that? (maybe a cowboy movie takes it too far, but that is what popped into my head)

I'm sorry... that's what I was trying to say is that yes, we DO kill for land and territory. And yet, do we, in our hearts, allow that as OK? Mostly no. most would protest such a thing. Imagine the US invading Canada because the US is becoming too big and simply taking over. But yet, this happens everyday in the wild (granted on a MUCH smaller scale).



So then if at certain times killing one IS okay... who decides what is worth killing for and what is not? Someone said rapists... but what if that rapists was just a product of being raped his/her whole life by his/her parents... then shouldn't the parents be the ones who are sentenced to death? Welll, I guess that gets into a whole different debate.

[startover22]

Hmmmm.... many animals follow a set of rules and can even deter from those set rules. They still have the ability to do as they please.... to a point. True, they are more driven by instinct and cannot reason.. but what I meant was exactly that... since they can't reason, why are they left on the side that so many of us see as evil or sin? Why wouldnt these otherwise sinless creatures get along without killing each other? Why would God allow this one and only sin be okay for all other creatures?

{START}Since they cannot reason, I cannot compare us to them, that is all i was trying to say. They have to kill to survive, it is the way God made them, that's my take at least.

im sorry... thats what i was trying to say is that yes, we DO kill for land and territory. And yet, do we, in our hearts, allow that as ok? mostly no. most would protest such a thing. Imagine the US invading Canada because the US is becoming too big and simply taking over. but yet, this happens everyday in the wild (granted on a MUCH smaller scale).

{START}Yes, we allow it to be ok. Not sure why, our hard heads? Our egos? Our land? Your land but we want it and we will do anything to get it? I am not really sure, I think maybe if we didn't fight for land, it might go into the wrong hands and that may be more devistating than a "war"?????

So then if at certain times killing one IS okay... who decides what is worth killing for and what is not? Someone said rapists... but what if that rapists was just a product of being raped his/her whole life by his/her parents... then shouldnt the parents be the ones who are sentenced to death? Welll, i guess that gets into a whole different debate.

{START}I do not know how to quote user but I think I did it if you look up?I believe that certain times it is OK, I believe that guy who took my daught raped her and then laughed in her face and then did it again deserves to die, actually, I think if there was someone willing to do that same thing to him, I would rather that be done to him than death! But death is all we as a civiliztion will allow. So be it. He goes! Not that any of that happened and I pray to God it won't to my daughter, but yes, he needs to go. At least in my own opinion he does! I wouldn't be able to pull the trigger so to speak, but I am glad someone has the guts enough to do it! Someone else on the other hand, might be able to pull it but not me, so this is where I am torn. You see?

[bushg]

Hmmmm.... many animals follow a set of rules and can even deter from those set rules. They still have the ability to do as they please.... to a point. True, they are more driven by instinct and cannot reason.. but what I meant was exactly that... since they can't reason, why are they left on the side that so many of us see as evil or sin? Why wouldnt these otherwise sinless creatures get along without killing each other? Why would God allow this one and only sin be okay for all other creatures?



im sorry... thats what i was trying to say is that yes, we DO kill for land and territory. And yet, do we, in our hearts, allow that as ok? mostly no. most would protest such a thing. Imagine the US invading Canada because the US is becoming too big and simply taking over. but yet, this happens everyday in the wild (granted on a MUCH smaller scale).



So then if at certain times killing one IS okay... who decides what is worth killing for and what is not? Someone said rapists... but what if that rapists was just a product of being raped his/her whole life by his/her parents... then shouldnt the parents be the ones who are sentenced to death? Welll, i guess that gets into a whole different debate.

How do you know when that lion is lying and watching gazelle lickin his chops... etc. that he is not plotting and planning.. I kind of think he is.
The rapists he can not be of sound mind, so how can we as humane people put him to death for doing what he was taught. Maybe murders are just releasing their victims soul so that they can re enter earth school on another plane or the criminal being put to death gets to come back to the school of earth and try again, to be a kinder more gentle soul. I wonder...

[startover22]

I don't think the lion thinks anything wrong of it though. We would as humans. I think that the rapist is a selfish a-- sometimes not of sound mind but I will not give him the benefit of the doubt.

[inthebox]

It is from the Judeo-Christian values - the 6th commandment.
God created humans to be rulers of the world and in HIS image - Genesis - so that is why it applys to humans and not neceesarily animals.


Now if you don't believe that then :

There is no need to kill another for fear of retaliation from the victims family, kin, tribe etc.
unless... you are sure of victory or the goal [ food, land, property etc... ] being worth the risk.



Grace and Peace

[DrJ]

How do you know when that lion is lying and watching gazelle lickin his chops...etc. that he is not plotting and planning..I kinda think he is.
The rapists he can not be of sound mind, so how can we as humane people put him to death for doing what he was taught. Maybe murders are just releasing their victims soul so that they can re enter earth school on another plane or the criminal being put to death gets to come back to the school of earth and try again, to be a kinder more gentle soul. I wonder...

yes! Exactly... or the young girl startover spoke of may have volunteered to sacrifice her life before it began to teach us all a greater good... whether it be now or it sets off a chain of events that will someday be of great value... or to simply bring that one who raped her to come to know the Truth.

So who are we to judge what is right or what is wrong? What seems so wrong right now may be the single most important event (or even just a contributing factor) that brings exactly what this world needs...

[startover22]

It all brings me back to that "gut" feeling thing, and most people have the gut feeling that killing is wrong. Even if we think someone deserves to die, doesn't mean we will kill them. Yes, you have me thinking!

[DrJ]

It is from the Judeo-Christian values - the 6th commandment.
God created humans to be rulers of the world and in HIS image - Genesis - so that is why it applys to humans and not neceesarily animals.

Grace and Peace

But what of those that lived before the Commandments were written?

[bushg]

It is from the Judeo-Christian values - the 6th commandment.
God created humans to be rulers of the world and in HIS image - Genesis - so that is why it applys to humans and not neceesarily animals.


Now if you don't believe that then :

There is no need to kill another for fear of retaliation from the victims family, kin, tribe etc.
unless... you are sure of victory or the goal [ food, land, property etc... ] being worth the risk.



Grace and Peace

what if nothing had a value... if everything was the same the only value to it was you need it annd you get it, not extra, only what you need.. nothing you had was valued if someone needs it they get it not extra, not one job paid more or one job valued more. No religion was better than the other it was just religion, no woman or man was more attractive than the other blond , black, red, big breast, small breast, tall, short, thin fat... everything was valued just for being... if a child cried it was feed, etc... do you think that human killing would even be an issue

[startover22]

All humans have egos, so I think we would think of something to hurt over, don't you?

[jillianleab]

It is human convention, and part of being civilized.

Humans have the ability to plan and rationalize, animals don't. Say you put 10 dogs in a kennel and don't feed them for three days. Then you feed one dog a plate of poison dog food and let the other dogs watch it die. If you take another dog out of the kennel and offer it a plate of dog food, it's going to eat it. So will the rest of them. They don't have the ability to plan and rationalize and conceive of the future in the same capacity as humans (capacity - that's the important part. I'm well aware that animals hoard food for the winter, etc).

Civilization is what makes it wrong to kill a person. In a civilized society, we don't take away or violate human rights, and the biggest human right of all is life. That's why people call Islam uncivilized, because (some) believe in honor killings. If we want to go back to living in the stone ages and flinging poop at each other, we can legitimize killing others, but I like toilet paper and would rather put up with my mother-in-law (joking!) than have to live in a cave.

Killing a person is wrong. But, can it be justified? Sure. When you put someone to death who has nothing left to contribute to this world, it's easy(er) to justify their death. That's why we don't execute people who shoplift; they stand a chance at rehabilitation. Now some might argue (correctly) that some people who are sentenced to death could be rehabilitated, but our society doesn't like to allow for the chance we might be wrong. You let a shoplifter back out on the street and he steals a toaster; let a murder go and he kills your sister. Which is worse? When you go to war with another country to fight for something you believe in, the war is justified, therefore deaths are also justified. You can't have a war without casualties (well, the Cold War, but whatever), and sometimes you can't fight for what you believe in without war.

[startover22]

Ok enough said, I am going to stay where I started and go with Jillian on this one! I think I have thought it through enough to come to the conclusion that I am not a debater. I never have been and I see things in a more "normal" aspect, or maybe I should say more "common" aspect. Whatever the word, you know what I mean. I have enjoyed coming back to the computer every once in a while and noticing new posts on this, and I am sure it will continue with you people who like a good debate. A lot of these issues were hypothetical so I am not sure if it really mattered anyway1

[Matt3046]

To some people its not. A good example is a soldier fighting in a "just war" is it wrong for him to kill a enemy? Or a convicted murderer being put to death?

[startover22]

I am not saying that I can't do it, it is just that the deeper it goes, the sillier it becomes to me. Some subjects are different and to tell you the truth I am completely awful at debates, I can't seem to get my thoughts into the right words to let you know how I really see something. I must need to take a writing class or touch up on my vocabulary. I just don't have it in me yet to go this far. I am only being honest, I know it sounds funny to some of you. I really enjoyed this thread and will follow it to see where it goes. I do believe that it is wrong to commit murder, and I don't know who's to say what killings are right and what killings are wrong. Please don't murder on my thoughts, they are pretty weak at this point. But you just wait, they will get stronger with the more threads I read like this. Watch out, I am learning! Look out for Startover!

[NeedKarma]

Startover,
Philosophy is like that. I remember Steve Martin's famous quote (he majored in it): "If you're studying geology, which is all facts, as soon as you get out of school you forget it all, but philosophy you remember just enough to screw you up for the rest of your life."

:)

[bushg]

Lol startover... I was just giving a lot of for instances... but think what if we really did think that way, that everyone and everything was the same or on the totaally different end... I'm just saying a lot of people have ordered murder's (mass) they thought the were right in doing so... Hitler... hussein (insane)... I think you helped keep the ideas flowing as well as the other... thank's to the one that started the thread

[startover22]

Yes, thanks to tonyrey! It has been enlightening.