Hello,
The question is If you connect to a stangers unsecured wi-fi (without permission) and use it only for legal perposes (such as the internet) without acessing any of their other resources, is it illegal?
|
Hello,
The question is If you connect to a stangers unsecured wi-fi (without permission) and use it only for legal perposes (such as the internet) without acessing any of their other resources, is it illegal?
Yes it is illegal, because it is a private network, and you did not ask their permission to use it.
Yes it is
Hello:
I don't know. Does your use of the network diminish the owners? I don't think so. Does it cost the owner MORE because you're using it? I don't think so. Will the owner even be aware that you're using it? I don't think so.
So, if nobody looses anything, why is it a crime?
excon
AGREES!
It is the responsibility of the wireless router owner to secure their network if they do not want untended users to be able to have access to it.
If I open my laptop, turn it on, and it tells me I have a wireless network available, and I can access it without any password, how have I broken any law?
What law would cover this supposed crime?
Actually... It can be argued both ways.
1. Technically, it's a private network and so you should need explicit permission to connect.
However:
2. Because of the proliferation of public access networks if their network is unsecured (no WPA or WEP) it could be assumed that the owner intended it to be widely available. (You can't put out a bowl of candy with a Take One sign and then complain that people are stealing your candy!)
In the second case, as long as you are not accessing the private machines on the network or causing a degradation of service for other users you should be fine. At the worst, some authority figure will tell you not to do it again and let you off the hook.
@excon: That's the same flawed argument used to justify piracy of intellectual property on the internet.
Hello S:
Not really. With piracy of intellectual property, there IS a victim.
excon
I'd say that this information from your first link, supports the view that while it MAY be a crime, the chance of ever being charged are slim to none at this time.
The key being there is really no victim, just as excon has stated.
"There's concerns about whether or not you could actually charge theft because you're not actually taking anything from that business who provides that service," explained St. Joseph County Prosecutor Mike Dvorak. "They're not paying any more for it, because the person sits out in the parking lot, hacks into it."
Commander Kajzer also explained how the boundaries of a business's wireless networks aren't clear. Should the boundary end at the door or the edge of the property? What about nearby neighbors who can access the signal?
"But Prosecutor Dvorak admits you'll have to do something worse than using someone else's connection to get in serious trouble.
"Our greater concern is what someone is stealing from someone else," he explained. "What that interloper is taking from you: identification, defrauding you and taking money out of your account."
Yes, it is illegal. It's actually called theft of services. Again, as stated by progunr, the chances of being prosecuted for it aren't very high.
Oh, and FYI, if you knowingly let someone use your Internet who isn't a part of your household, your ISP can come after you for theft of services as well. I learned this the hard way, actually.
Amen.Quote:
Originally Posted by twilcox
If you steal my wireless connection, the chances of prosecution are very high. I am paying for a service and if you make use of it, you are stealing from me. There is no argument there. Don't fool yourself into thinking there are no victims. It is ceartainly not a violent crime but that does not change the fact that it is illegal.
This should be a wakeup call for anybody that does not secure their wireless network. There are a lot of people out there that do not mind stealing what you pay for. Secure your wireless network. You put locks on your house, why not your assets contained on your computer?
Hello chuck:
I'm using a non secured wireless connection right now. Do you mean to tell me that my valuable data on my computer is at risk? Is there legal software that will tell me, or other users, who else is on the network? Will that software give me access to their computer? Does the owner of the network know who's online? Is my using the network preventing someone else from using it, or even diminishing the speed of the network?
I understand how you think of yourself as a victim... But, I'd like to know how using your network damages you in any way, shape, or form. Oh, I know it's illegal. That's not what I'm asking.
I have a feeling the answers to my questions are no.
excon
Any time you're on an unsecured wireless network, you are at risk. You wouldn't broadcast your credit card information over the radio, would you? Did you know that's pretty much what you're doing when you buy something online using an unsecured wireless network?
Yes, there is legal software that tracks user information on a network, we use it at work, actually. And it is actually VERY easy to see if someone is using your network, all you have to do is look at the DHCP table on your router and spot the computer name that doesn't fit in your network. There are other ways, too, but that's the most used and the easiest.
1) I'm responsible for anything you do online using my network connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
2) You're stealing my bandwidth, and I pay good money for that.
3) If you're on my network, you have access to my resources.
I don't care if you live in a tiny little town of 500 people, lock it down! Locks are designed to keep honest people honest. Wireless security is designed to keep honest people honest and to help keep your data safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckhole
Hello again, t:Quote:
Originally Posted by twilcox
I don't want to know "pretty much". I want to know specifically IF, when I bank online using the non secured network that I'm on, am and I BROADCASTING my personal data, or not?
If you're the computer whiz you portend, then you ought to be able to give me a definitive answer.
I get that you think using your unsecured network is stealing. I won't argue with you further about that.
excon
An Internet connection is a fixed amount of bandwidth. If you are using my connection to download files, you are taking that bandwidth and if I am using it at the same time, then the speed of my connection is diminished by what you are using. If you are sharing your connection with other members of the family, then their connection is effected as well. You can only fit so much water through a hose.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Secondly, if you really want to "sniff" the data on a connection, all you need is physical access. We use Protocol Analyzers at work to troubleshoot our coporate network and these same analyzers can be used for illegal purposes as well. The see everything in their raw forms unless the data is encrypted.
Yes, your data can be stolen from you and I KNOW HOW TO DO IT. The knowledge I have is used for legal and ethical purposes though and for good reason. Not everyone that knows how to steal your data makes this same distinction. You have to know how to break in to the data if you are going to learn how to protect it.
Hello again, chuck:
Wheeeew. Fortunately, my bank and my broker DO encrypt their sites. Does THAT mean I'm protected??
Ok, OK, Dude. I got it. I'm not arguing that anymore.
excon
I used to think it was illegal but this new information has changed my mind:
Why it's OK to 'steal' Wi-Fi | Computerworld Blogs
Hello again, chuckee baby:
I KNEW my instincts were correct. I read NK's article. DUDE, the argument is BACK ON!
excon
Its against US Federal law to access a private computer network without permission. While I understand the argument in the Computerworld blog that, if the network owner didn't secure their network, then its their fault if someone uses it, is bogus. If you you leave your car running with the keys in it while you run into a store, does that make it OK for someone to steal it?
While I agree that its unlikely that someone will be prosecuted for connecting to his neighbor's router, its also unlikely that one will be prosecuted for jaywalking. But it can (and has) happened.
Actually Scott your example is a little off.
To be more accurate the car would be running, with the keys in the ignition AND the doors wide open, but unfortunately it falls over slightly as bandwidth isn't physical.
The burden of proof in cases like this would be extremely difficult due to the nature of wireless.
Yes you could glean the MAC address from the router, but as we know that can be spoofed.
This is why on the whole, there are very few convictions for wardriving.
The practice of acquiring unsecured wireless access by travelling around your neighbourhood with a wifi enabled device. ( War_driving )
The main convictions of note have been when this practice has been used for a further illegal act.
Scott,
A private computer network doesn't broadcast it self into my house and readily accept my connection.
The car analogy doesn't work in this case. The better analogy is: you left your MP3 player in my apartment and I used it to listen to your music. Should I be punished for that?
My $.02
There are a couple of reasons to secure a wireless network:
1. creating Spam created by the stealer or virus.
2. Downloading of illegal porn (the stuff that puts you in jail quickly)
This is primarily why some hotspots remove outgoing mail (SMTP) and have firewalls on vistied sites. Our free libraries only allow http and very secure versions of https. That's it.
The makers of consumer routers rarely put a function to list who is connected. Makes it hard for the consumer to tell.
Using encryption infringes on speed.
Windows passwords are not that strong. Best not to have filesharing on, nor open incoming ports.
Sniffing is easy and free. Sniffing wireless is harder. I haven't done that yet.
Your browser encrypts and then sends the encrypted information, so it's difficult to snatch.
Windows is just too easy to break into, or so it seems. Personal info stored there seems to be a greater threat.
Hiding the SSSID is the minimum that should be done for a wireless network. This makes it a little hard to troubleshoot at times.
Certain passwords are in plaintext. Telnet and FTP for instance. These are slowly being eliminated, although not fast enough. Mail may be too unless your using a browser based client. Not sure.
Now suppose you and your neighbor had an agreement to share garbage collection. Legal?
If you share internet and/or cable then it's illegal because of your agreement.
Breaking into a computer system (using someone else's WIFI) without their permission is against the law.
And, in order to break the security, you have to know the holes. Been on both side of the fence primarily before PC's were in the picture. I broke security. I was offered a job.
I could crash minicomputers and take out entire networks with two statements. Crash dumps rat. When your on both sides, you realize that security depends on the secured system to be free of vunerabilities. IE. They are not intentionally created. Being the hacker, means that you have to be one step ahead. Guessing at vunerabilities.
A grad student wrote a network terminal handler for his thesis. A fancy word for a program that would support multiple terminals over a network. Not the same, but similar to unix TERM variable and TERMCAP entries although it only supported 3 different displays.
The student asked me to try to crash it. I thought about it for about 5 minutes. Went over to a logged out terminal and typed 3 characters. CRASH. I was in high school. He wasn't pleased.
This mini-computer had "Administrator accounts" and all the passwords were the same and it was changed very regularly. Also the "Administrator" accounts had the ability to log onto a standard account just by logging onto an administrator account and then directly logging onto the account of a standard account. This increased security because the administrators didn't have to know the passwords of all the accounts. This was when passwords could be looked up. Unix has a one way encryption which makes that impossible. A dictionary data base was used to break into our system. It was intentional and it was considered "fun" at the time. 6 character passwords, all upper case with numbers made it easy. The after 5 tries, you have to wait 20 min now used on the web gets rid of that problem. More secure sites like banking, require a phone call to reset if the number of trials are exceeded. So, it's always cat and mouse.
My network is unsecured. The guy parked outside is easily spotted. It doesn't carry across the street, nor in the neighbors back yard. Three out of the 4 neighbors have computers. One has wireless. All are incapable of hacking. With a high gain antennae, you could reach the network. Bricks attenuate the signal quickly.
KISS,
There is no doubt that people should secure their home wireless networks. I have a side job in tech support and make some fun money doing that.
Here's a funny story about a tech savvy guy who wanted to mess with people accessing his wifi signal (you can skip the code parts and look at the images): Upside-Down-Ternet
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Okay, YES, if you send sensitive information over an unsecured wireless network, or even over a WEP secured network, it is entirely possible for someone to get that information, even if your bank uses a secure connection. Never underestimate the ability of the determined to get at your information.
Heh.. nice work.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Hello again, twill:
I'm not an IT guy... I AM a security guy. I know enough to know, that as long as data resides anywhere, somebody can get it. From a technological point of view, the only thing that makes encryption work, is that is hasn't been hacked YET.
WILL it be hacked?? Duh!
My question has to do with the here and now. My concern is with the dollars in my account TODAY - not whether they could be vulnerable in the future. I KNOW about the future.
So, Mr IT technician, IS my data (and my money) safe (in the real world meaning of safe)? Or should I stop my online banking, bill paying and purchasing? Really, Dude. I don't want to lose my money. But, doesn't EVERYBODY bank online?? If it wasn't safe, don't you think I would have heard by now?
excon
PS> I want you to know, that I just didn't willy nilly put my data online and ask questions AFTERWORDS. I checked quite extensively into the safety of these very issues, BEFOREHAND. If I'm, and all the people I checked with, wrong, please let me know.
PPS> My apologies to Solarrigger for stealing the thread.
Is that only for twill or can anyone answer?
I do ALL my banking online either form my wired desktop or my wireless laptop, hell I even do it from work. The data is encrypted and between your browser and the bank's webserver farm. Can it be decrypted? Yes. Is it easy for the regular techie kid to it? Absolutely not.
Of course I'm not the regular computer user. I know how to keep my PC free of malware and viruses - that's your bigger threat, not the guy who attaches a sniffer to a cable. I also secure my home network properly.
If one is against doing banking online because of security then I hope they never give their credit card to the waiter at a restaurant - that is 200% more risky than online banking.
I'm not against online banking, I actually bank online myself. CAN a secure tunnel be hacked? Yes, it can, that's not something in the near future, that's a here and now reality. I'm not saying don't ever bank online, I AM saying to be smart and use every precaution you can. Chances aren't likely that your local computer geek will have what it takes to get to your data, but it's still a possibility. Using an unsecured wireless network is just opening the door a little bit more for them to get to you.
I'm not saying wireless is bad, I use wireless nearly exclusively in my home, but it does need to be secured to ensure maximum security of your data.
The other thing to consider, I have seen WiFi connections that are merely traps. When you connect to another person's unsecured network, you're taking a risk, several actually.
1) Will they have the know-how to ID my computer on their network? (Which, by the way, the low-end router I installed at my parent's house, a Wal-Mart purchase, can easily tell me who's on the network)
2) Is their network open because they don't know any better? If so, is their network virus and spyware free, or am I at risk for picking something up from one of their computers. If they do know better, why are they leaving it open? Some WiFi networks are actually set up by people to steal information from your computer. Sure, that HTTPS tunnel that you've created to connect to your bank is a secure, encrypted signal, but are the temporary Internet files residing on your box secure?
3) If I am identified on someone's network, will they call the police on me? This one isn't likely, even if they do identify you, but some people are anal about this stuff.
There is good advice to be had here and some valid viewpoints to consider. Long story short... protect your assets and data. Don't just ignore the fact that something can happen. Even if you could prosecute, it does you no good if the damage has been done. When my debit card number was stolen by a gas station (according to police investigation), the outcome was the same... replace everything and contact a lot of people to work things out. Prosecution was irrelevant to me.
If you take reasonable precautions then you have made your data and network difficult enough to access that just about everybody will go fishing elsewhere. At the risk of repeating myself, the interest on this thread shows that it should be a wakeup call.
Or when the security firm website emails you and says that it's possible that your credit card info was stolen and that you should cancel your card as a precaution. It was stolen and was eventually used. It's ironic that a company selling security equipment themselves got compromised.
I think people have slightly gone off the point in some posts. I have read this topic, are people saying that it is not worth the risk, using someone else's wireless internet? Or is it down to them to secure it and if not it's fine to use it?
In my opinion its not OK to use it. Even if you won't get caught, even if its not totally illegal its still not ethical.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:44 PM. |