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I believe, for the majority, it is NOT a choice.
But,
How come there are gay men who have children when they were / are marred to women?
Obviously , they were able to "function" in a hetereosexual capacity.
Also, some cultures deem being the "pitcher" normal, but the "catcher" gay. This I don't understand.
Also, homosexual sex in prison among otherwise heterosexual men? For the victim it is rape, but a willful act by the perpetrator; unless it is consensual.
Grace and Peace
As to facts on hiv / aids
HIV and AIDS --- United States, 1981--2000 :
Male-to-male sex has been the most common mode of exposure among persons reported with AIDS (46%), followed by injection drug use (25%) and heterosexual contact (11%). The incidence of AIDS increased rapidly in all three of these risk categories through the mid-1990s; however, since 1996, declines in new AIDS cases have been higher among MSM and injection drug users than among persons exposed through heterosexual contact (Figure 2).
If 10% of the population is gay and yet 46% of cases are due to male -male sex, then the incidence and risk for a homosexual male is several times the risk for a heterosexual male.
I could not find more recent data, and this is for the USA
In Africa, hiv is transmitted predominantly heterosexual in transmission.
Grace and Peace
I pity all of you who are dense enough to believe that the Bible can be used to answer scientific questions. It's sad that a book of fables can have such a devastating effect on (hopefully) otherwise normal people. The original question was not a question of faith or opinion, it was "Is being gay a choice" Simply put: NO! I don't understand how you can argue this with such clear data stating it's not a choice.
To macksmom: the existence of Jesus is actually becoming controversial because the timeline for his death and other historical events don't match up AND he doesn't appear in Roman works of history. Did he really exist? I don't know; however, I don't really think it matters given how Christians have manipulated his words.
To goldilox and fallen2grace: the reason the Bible is so against homosexual sex is because it was used as a weapon in antiguity. To intimidate others, Romans (though not exclusively) raped people. The invention that is Christianity was really pushed as a way to destroy the Roman Empire. They had a brutal culture that was very unfair to those not in the highest classes and everything Roman had to be deemed "sin" in order to change the culture. When you look at Christianity, it's really just a combination of various pagan religions and Judaism that was given to the masses as a legitimate religion. Take a good look at the advent of Christianity... you'll find that nothing adds up.
I don't really think we need religious fanatics telling us what is normal, natural, or healthy when they admittedly choose to disregard facts that don't agree with their warped world view.
Xrayman: I do enjoy Buddhist philosophy. I have many Thai friends (Thailand is a very Buddhist country) and it's amazing how well adjusted everyone seems to be. Maybe it's because the focus of Buddhist thought is self-improvement. They don't play the shame-game like western religions. You mind your own business and work to improve yourself, not judge others.
Comments on this post
goldilox : at the end of the day whatever the causes are whether it be by environmental conditions etc but the fact here is that it is not natural.this is the point..it is not natural.
No, the point is not weather you think it is "natural" or not... that goes right along with your bible theroies.
The QUESTION was weather it is a choice or not... period.
And the answer to that question is NO, base on scientific FACT... not theories from the bible.
And even though you choose to try and push the bible... you know it's not a choice, from your comment "whatever the causes are... "
Hmmmm...
I agree... I too practice Buddhism. It is a great and fullfilling philosophy :DQuote:
Originally Posted by americangayboy
Right, work on improving ourselves, not judge others, don't mind others' business.
:)
Way to go!
Oh joy so in counting I have been called at least 5 things in this thred. To bad for you,Im proud of it. ^_______^
Once again. If you take the time to READ it, You would know there are plenty of Scientific fact. Like my CATHOLIC friend told me when I was telling her about this, You have to spend time actually studying it To know.
First, no God fearing person would hate another person and especially their own children. As to beating the homosexuality out of any person, no God fearing person would even think of harming another person, gay or straight. It is against God's laws. I believe we are to love all people no matter what their sexuality or lifestyle is. For example:Quote:
Originally Posted by stonewilder
I love a thief, but must I love the act of stealing he/she does? NO
I love those who hate me but does that mean I must love being hated? No
I love the homosexual person, but must I condone and love their sexual actions? No
Not one of us have the right to harass or beat or treat homosexual men and women badly. We though at the same time do not have to agree or except their behavior as normal or as something they are born with. Why then must they try to push their behavior as exceptable when a higher power, some call God, tells us, it is a sin and it is wrong?
If they are homosexual and they feel they are born that way, then they have free will, let them do their thing and leave the rest of us do our thing. Why do homosexuals feel they must push their behavior on the rest of society they know do not except such behavior? They are teachers and yet many do not leave their sexuality at home where it belongs. They bring it in schools where young children are taught it is okay to be gay. Why do they do that, when parents spend their time teaching their child it is wrong. Doesn't the parent have the right to teach their child God's laws as they understand it? What right does homosexuals have to undo the teachings that parents spend years teaching their children? They don't, but they push and shove homosexuality down the throats of those who do not wish to axcept it nor condone it. Not even straight people have the right to teach sex in the schools. It is a God given right t PARENTS NOT TEACHERS OR SCHOOLS RESPONSIBITY! Maybe if parents are allowed to take that responsibility back then we would not have half the problems we have with sexual behavior as we see today in society.
I believe that if a person is a homosexual, and even if they feel they were born that way, why and what right do they have to mess with my children's mind with television programs , computers, books, movies, magazines and even in the schools, that try to teach my child that it's okay? They are not the child's parent and therefore if a homosexual wishes to practice this sexual behavior, then they should keep it in their homes. Why must they bring their behavior into the schools and think and feel they have a right to teach other peoples children that homosexuality is okay? It is not their right nor are those they teach, their children. They not only teach it, but try to force others to condone it. Why should they condone it if they choice not to? If the homosexual person feels they have rights, then why not give those who are not homosexuals that same right?
I think this leader said it all when he made this statement: "When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world.”—Gandhi, to Lord Irwin, former viceroy to India
Yes, I agree that when we all return to the simple teaching of Christ, then and only then will all contraversal issues such as homosexuality and all other issues be settled once and for all. Until then we will have those who try to dictate to us what we should and should not axcept and we do not have that right. Only God does. Some have left the teaching of Christ and some reject those teachings, but I feel as Mr. Gandhi did, until we all turn to God and follow his Son's teachings, their will always be contraversal matters, caused by the battle for prestige and power and who ever becomes the strongest at any particular time, the rest must follow. I personally choice to follow Christ and his teachings. Unitil such time when we must all stand before our maker, I and my family will do what we discern is right and you who want to condone and axcept homosexuality in society, by all means do your thing. I can't stop you and it is not my job or anyone else's. It will though be God's right to judge for himself who is right and who is wrong on this issue. Until then, why not leave sexual behavior at home where it belongs? If homosexuality is so natural and so many condone it, why make such an issue of axceptence? Why should the matter of sexual behavior be a public issue when it is an intimate feeling or relationship between you and the one you love? Why must it be flaunted in the face of those who do not condone it and feel it is a sin?
I truly believe, that those who are straight or homosexuals should keep sexual matters private. Another words, you do your thing, and allow me to do my thing. I don't force my sexual preverence on you, (unless on forums such as this, where one gives their personal view on any said issues) then please don't shove yours down my throat or teach my children what I feel is not your right to teach them. I know some will say that they hear about straight people all the time. Yes, but that does not make that right either. I do not condone such behavior, however, you do have the freedom to decide what is right for you and yours. At the same time though, that same freedom is mine and I will choose for myself and mine what I understand to be correct. If you want freedom of behavior then allow others the same freedom. Why try to convice others to believe what they feel is wrong?
Maybe what people object to the most about homosexual behavior is the fact that
they want others to axcept and condone and tell them it is okay. If you were truly born that way, why does homosexuals need axceptence? I was born with CP and if someone doen't axcept me as I am, I move on to those that do. I do not force others to welcome me or approve of me with my Cerebral palsy if they don't want to. I also do not make me being condoned or loved, a public issue.
In conclusion, we all live in this world. We all have diffferent moral beliefs and practices. When it comes to sexual habits, either straight or gay, it is a personal matter and should remain personal and kept in the home. There is no need for sex in the movies and on television or in public places. Sex is bueatiful when practiced the way it was intended, people have degraded it by making it a public issue and imposing their preverences on others. We all must make our own choices and life with them but we do not have the right to impose our choice on others, especially when it comes to personal matters. I believe it is a sin to practice homsexuality, some believe it is not and it is natural. Fine then, you do your thing and allow me to do mine. Why make it a public issue? Keep it in the home where it belongs and give others the right to decide for themselves what is good for them and what is bad. As for me and my household, we must obey God as ruler on all matters, before man ideas or thoughts of what is right.
Take Care,
Hope12
If it's a choice or not it has not been proven scietifically, even though you would like to say it is. For every Scientific information you wish to give as proof, those who believe it is a choice can give Scientific proof that there is no proof. It is a therory not proof. Please do more research.Quote:
Originally Posted by macksmom
Science when it comes to homosexuality is working on therories, that are not facts. You though are giving them as facts. It's not even a matter of pushing the Bible or not, it is a personal matter and should be practiced as such for those who choose that behavior for themselves.
You state that there are those " who choose to try and push the Bible", yet is that not what those who are homosexuals trying to do to those who do not condone such behavior?
Are those who condone homosexuality not trying to push homsexuality down the throats of those who do not condone it? If it is so natural and normal, why do they need people to condone their behavior or actions? If they were born with it, then why don't all people condone it? Why does such behavior sicken others? It's not just those that believe in the Bible, even some who do not even believe in God, are objective to such behavior. If it is natural and normal, why do they need hormones and surgeries to make them into the opposite sex?
Sometimes as a society we have an ability to make whatever we choose to be condoned even if it repules others, just to be popular with others or to be axcepted in society. Two wrongs do not make a right. If someone is gay then they need to stop trying to force others to axcept their behavior. Why do they need to flaunt the sexual behavior? Why does anyone need to even know what the other persons sexual preferences are? It is a personal matter and should not be forced on the part of society that does not wish to condone it. Homosexuals claim to have rights, so does the people in society who do not wish to condone or axcept such behavior as normal. Especially since Science as not proven anything as fact. All the information you have printed so far is not fact, but therories. Do your research not just on the side of homosexuality but on the other side of the issue also. Then you can see all the Scientific information is therory not facts.
Take care,
Hope12
Very detailed. I loved it.
Hope, you really need to think about what you're saying. There is scientific evidence proving sex-linked heritibility in regards to sexual orientation. You "believers" offer answers from a book written thousands of years ago before what we now call homosexuality was even conceived. Based on what you've said, I don't think you should be talking about science in any respect. You demand more information when more is not needed. You know, plate tectonics is just a theory, too, but there is a huge amount of evidence suggesting it is fact.
Also, you mentioned that "god fearing" people don't harm others. What would you call the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Holocaust? Christians either pursued or approved of all three. What about the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Were they not performed by religious zealots? If you think that the hands of the religious are clean of blood, I doubt your intelligence.
Moving on to your thoughts about education, you really need to think critically about this, not just listen to your church leaders and spew what they have to say. There is no reason to believe that homosexuality is harmful. Every credible psychological, psychiatric and medical organization in America will tell you that. You anti-gay cretins rely on correlational studies to "prove" that homosexuality is harmful, but the first thing you learn in research is "correlation DOES NOT equal causation." Using just correlations, you can say that religion causes murder and conservative politics causes lowered intelligence (the number of churches in a city positively correlates with the murder rate/1000 and conservative thought negatively correlates with intelligence scores). Why should something that is okay not be taught as being okay? By all means, send your kids to private schools or home-school them if you want them to be lied to.
We are not pushing our values on you, we are asking you to quit pushing your values on us. Your god has no place in my life. I don't really care if you think it is wrong, it's a free country, but, once again, you don't have good reason to ask that gays and lesbians refrain from having sex with or marrying the ones they love. Nor do you have sufficient reason to ask that it not be taught as a healthy, normal variation of the human condition. To answer your question about about why people don't condone homosexuality if we are born either homosexual or heterosexual: ignorance! You and your cohorts are so blinded by your pathetic beliefs that you cannot see facts when they are presented. You want evidence, we give you evidence, and then you say the Bible disagrees so we must be wrong. How can you not see how foolish that is?
People like you make me sick.
6,7,8.. More things I am called. Along with 2 other people. And yet we have called you nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by americangayboy
Unbelivable, I do agree with you on the God-Fearing people thing. But other then that. I disagree. Lets see.. Ah here::
I can find plenty of verses that clearly explain about Homosexuality. So get your facts straight.Quote:
You "believers" offer answers from a book written thousands of years ago before what we now call homosexuality was even conceived.
That's not true. It goes both ways. I will admit that. And its too bad that you cant. Its human nature to Judge,Lable,and push values on others.Quote:
We are not pushing our values on you
Yeah and guess what? You want evidence too! And guess what? We give it to you! "Your so blinded" by YOUR belifes that you can't see what we are giving you.Quote:
You want evidence, we give you evidence.
Umm... what did I call hope? I said I would doubt her intelligence if she believed that religious people we innocent.
When the Bible was written, "gay" did not exist. There was homosexual sex, but it was not thought of as it is today. There was consentual sex, which was common in Roman society (the arch-rival of the Jews and early Christian). Christians and Jews tried to demonize all that was Roman (how can you mobilize a segment of people against such a powerful force if it is not for religious purposes?) There was homosexual rape, too, and I think it's evident why the Jews and Christians would be against that... even a lot of Romans disapproved of rape. I think if it was understood in a loving context (which it is today) there would not have been a campaign against it. So, low and behold, I do have my facts straight. The Bible must be studied with a sense of the culture for which it was written.
How is me asking you to stay the heck out of my life and keep your beliefs to yourself pushing my beliefs down your throat? Like I said before, if you want your children to be lied to, home-school them or put them in private schools. Also, entertainment up to the free market. If shows like Will & Grace bother you, it's more than the queer community that you should be mad at. After all, we only make up 3-10% of the population.
You are not providing any evidence of anything. The original question was "Is being gay a choice?" and you respond with "God says they're bad." Where is the evidence there? There isn't even evidence that God exists, let alone that s/he would really care (I don't think Jesus says a single word about gay sex in any of the Gospels). Because the Bible isn't a work of science, it is not appropriate to bring it to a (what should be) scientific conversation. If you asked "What is the meaning of the story of Sodom & Ghomorrah?" would it be appropriate for me to respond "Archeologists have discovered sites south-east of the Dead Sea that may be the Biblical cities. There are vast sulfur deposits in the hills nearby, which could have exploded in an electrical storm or earthquake and rained down on the city, causing the cities' destruction."? Sure, it's marginally related in topic, but it's irrelevant to the conversation.
I am not blind, I was raised in a Christian home and couldn't stand the hypocrisy and lying any more. I would love to believe in God, it's a comforting concept; however, the evidence doesn't back it and I can't believe in something that is so obviously fabricated. If you really look at the history of the creation of the Christian faith, it's apparent that it is a patchwork of pagan religions that was used to unite Roman commoners against Roman leaders.
I never responded with "God says it's bad" I believe my exact words were "You arnt born gay its a choice" And I don't see the word God in there anywhere.
Im done arguing with you. You have your opinion. And I have mine.
There is no point in trying anymore.
You have repeatedly stated that you think God is against homosexuality and therefore it must be a choice. This is not a difference of opinion, it is a refusal, on your part, to accept scientific evidence.
I am so sorry, my purpose is not to make anyone sick! I am making a statement that is not my personal laws but God's laws. God tells us homosexuality is a sin. Psycologist and other doctors are human as you and I are, we all make mistakes, God does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by americangayboy
I and those of my religion do not go to war or join in on as you have stated, I quote you:
"Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Holocaust? Christians either pursued or approved of all three. What about the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Were they not performed by religious zealots? If you think that the hands of the religious are clean of blood, I doubt your intelligence."
As a true christian, I do not approve nor would I or anyone in the religion I belong to touch or be involved in anything such as a Crusade or inquistion or holocaust. As to 9/11 that was not any God fearing persons that did such a horrific action. There are those in this world who truly God fearing and if you research this matter you will see that TRUE CHRISTIANS AND THOSE WHO FEAR GOD, do not go to war or join in any political or any kind of actions that would bring harm to another. Remember there are those who claim to be Christians, and they are not true chritians but are referred to as Christendom, because they pretend to serve God but they are proved liars by their actions. These are the ones and the religions that go to war and join in Crusades and inquistions and hurt and kill others.
I do not ask you to do anything. God does though and if you choose not to listen to God's laws, that is your choice. I do not wish to judge you, my only purpose is to inform others of God's laws. If you or anyone else does not choose to obey the creator then so be it. I leave you in peace and there will be no more communication between you and I. I am not here to debate with you or anyone else, but to make sure you know God's law that homosexuality is a sin. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.. . .
At least you can never say to "God, your creator, you didn't know or no one ever told you.
Have a good day and like I stated, I will not debate this issue with you any further. As to intellegence, you think I am not and that is your right, but this is not about intellegence but obedience to the God of the universe. Time will prove intellegence but most of all our obedience to our Creator.
Take care,
Hope12
Hmmmm... "nor men who lie with men"... well then I guess lesbians are okay then? Women homosexuals are approved by your god?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope12
Just one of the million things wrong in your bible, and thinking.
It has a deeper meaning. Its not THAT Literal.
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