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Originally Posted by Simone21295

no... i dont want to solve my issues with therapy. i want to understand my issues with therapy...

and

...i can just as easily detach myself from everything and sometimes not care about anything including myself and sometimes i think i care to much and take things to seriously, but isnt that just being a moody teen?....

and

...the 1st thing that comes to my mind is nothing. nothing positive can come from it because i dont want it to be positive. pain isnt considered to be a positive thing because it makes you feel bad, but i want to feel bad.

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Simone,

Your position distresses a lot of people because we have experienced more suffering than any of us would choose if we could decide how the world works. Declaring that you want to go to the worst of places in yourself just to understand is either an amazing act of courage or a really foolish, self-defeating distortion of your situation.

For me, this thread leads to one of two conclusions:

1. You are a visionary genius who seeks deep insight into the dark side of the human condition, and who one day will do research that changes our understanding of why we suffer.
2. You are a bored, frustrated teenager who has convinced herself that she wants to feel as bad as possible because she already feels so bad that she is afraid to try to feel good any more.

I just read Altenweg's post and she suggests a third possibility: You are just jerking us around for your entertainment and attention.

In any case, you don't have the skills or personal development or life experience to figure any of this out by yourself. You need partners, people who can keep you from conning yourself—and others—and who can support you in actually doing something meaningful with what you have inside. The story that you want all this pain has worn out. I'm of the opinion that you already are in such pain that to bear it you have distorted yourself into a position that feels like power, command, control, and detachment. But, in reality, you just don't know what to do.

You can get help from professional counselors, and several suggestions have been made. If you really want to do something gutsy and productive, get in front of a counselor and explore yourself. Use the counselor as a partner in figuring out what you want to figure out.

You can do some of that here, but our process is stalled: We are offering solutions, recommendations, and advice, and you are staying on the surface by restating and reinforcing your stance. To get somewhere, you need to do the work of revealing yourself, going deeper into discovering what is really in your mind, and dealing with what you find.

Maybe you will realize that it's time to get to work.

Tao

No I'm not "pulling your chain" or "trying to see what kind of rise i can get out of this community". And I researched munchausens and I don't have that. Yes I want attention and yes I am extremely bored, but I'm not making this up just to have something to do or to get attention. EVERYTHING I SAID IS TRUE. This is what I've been thinking while bored for the past year and I have been taking it very seriously. I'm actually trying to do these things that I said and I wanted someone to talk to about it because when I talk to myself about it I seem to talk in circles. I want therapy and then I don't want it. I don't want it because I'm scared of the outcome and I do want it because it will help me when I can't help myself. I want to be a psychotherapist because I think its very interesting. I think I've gotten all the help I can get on this from here and I think I'm going to take taoplr's advice.

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Originally Posted by Simone21295

no im not "pulling your chain" or "trying to see what kind of rise i can get out of this community". and i researched munchausens and i dont have that. yes i want attention and yes i am extremely bored, but im not making this up just to have something to do or to get attention. EVERYTHING I SAID IS TRUE. this is what ive been thinking while bored for the past year and i have been taking it very seriously. im actually trying to do these things that i said and i wanted someone to talk to about it because when i talk to myself about it i seem to talk in circles. i want therapy and then i dont want it. i dont want it because im scared of the outcome and i do want it because it will help me when i can't help myself. i want to be a psychotherapist because i think its very interesting. i think ive gotten all the help i can get on this from here and i think im going to take taoplr's advice.

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Simone,

I believe you. And I would be willing to stick with you until you come to a solid step in the right direction. Then, you will be on your own. At the onset, we have to define what the right direction is. If we do a bunch of work, and it is productive, what outcome would you want? Where do you want your inquiry to take you?

You can't do this kind of work alone. Working within yourself calls for competent, empathetic partners who can understand you and reflect you back to yourself in useful ways. You will need an in-person partner in the form of a licensed counselor whom you can see as much as needed, as well as the cyberspace partners you find here. We need the licensed counselor as backup.

Those who consider you just playing us will drift away to other threads, and one would ask of those who stay that they take you at face value, giving credence to your words.

Do you want to continue this exploration?

If not, I wish you fulfillment of your deepest wishes.

If so, let's go, starting with some questions and two assignments:

• Which part of my advice were you planning to put to use?
• You said that you are scared of the outcome in therapy. What, specifically, are you scared might happen of you go to therapy?
• Are you a reader? If I recommend books, will you read them? Articles? Blogs? Videos?

Assignments:

1. Read the entire thread starting at https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/relati...359578-34.html

It will give you examples of my working models, great inputs from others on this forum, and a process by which a person can work in their own mind.

2. Watch this video: Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight | Video on TED.com

3. Get a notebook and start taking notes, recording your thoughts, experiences, dreams, issues, and concerns. Record everything in this notebook.

Last item for now, agreements. I request that you agree to:

Answer all the questions I ask you.
Do all the assignments I give you.

Assuming you want to go ahead, what do you need from me? From others on this forum?

tao

What outcome would I want? I would want to control it and then help people who are depressed or in pain. I would want to understand there situation to make it easier to relate and help them.
Where do I want my inquiry to take me? I want it to help me figure out who I am.
In order to get a counsellor I would have to tell my mom everything. I'm afraid of being ridiculed my her. She would think it's a load of crap and start saying how immature I am and how I don't know anything and she would bring up things that have nothing with what I was talking about. I try my best to avoid talking with her.
Which part of your advice was I planning to use? Those question. I intended to ask myself those questions on a regular basis to elaborate more on them each time I ask.
I'm scared that if I get therapy they will only try to "normalize" me and that everything will be solved and there will be nothing else for me to figure out about myself.
I've never read a book unless I had to for school. But I enjoy reading about psychology.

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Originally Posted by Simone21295

what outcome would i want? i would want to control it and then help people who are depressed or in pain. i would want to understand there situation to make it easier to relate and help them.
where do i want my inquiry to take me? i want it to help me figure out who i am.
in order to get a counsellor i would have to tell my mom everything. im afraid of being ridiculed my her. she would think its a load of crap and start saying how immature i am and how i dont know anything and she would bring up things that have nothing with what i was talking about. i try my best to avoid talking with her.
which part of your advice was i planning to use? those question. i intended to ask myself those questions on a regular basis to elaborate more on them each time i ask.
im scared that if i get therapy they will only try to "normalize" me and that everything will be solved and there will be nothing else for me to figure out about myself.
ive never read a book unless i had to for school. but i enjoy reading about psychology.

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Why not start doing that here?

We have tons of teens coming to this site just looking for someone to talk to, someone who will listen to their problems. You could help them. You could stick by them, become a sounding board for them.

The suggestions you've gotten here are good ones. I too am willing to stick by you if this is real.

You have to understand, it's summer, we get a lot of bored teens coming to this site right now. They just come here to shock, for entertainment or to argue. After a while you start to question everyone, until they prove otherwise. It's survival.

I can't understand what you're going through. I don't know what to do to help you if therapy is out of the question for you, but Toaplor is someone whose opinions are valued here. You're in the right hands, but you have to be willing to listen and do your part.

I'll check back once in a while, offer things if I have something to offer, but mostly, I'll wish you luck.

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Originally Posted by Simone21295

what outcome would i want? i would want to control it and then help people who are depressed or in pain. i would want to understand there situation to make it easier to relate and help them.

where do i want my inquiry to take me? I want it to help me figure out who i am.
in order to get a counsellor i would have to tell my mom everything. im afraid of being ridiculed my her. she would think it's a load of crap and start saying how immature i am and how i don't know anything and she would bring up things that have nothing with what i was talking about. I try my best to avoid talking with her.

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Since that is the case, let's hold off on this requirement. But one condition: If at any time, you find yourself in dangerous territory, any emotional place that feels out of control, or harmful, or overwhelming in any way, you will tell us, and we will stop and evaluate the situation. If it is in your best interests to see a counselor at that time, you will face your mom and get professional help. Deal?

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which part of your advice was i planning to use? Those question. I intended to ask myself those questions on a regular basis to elaborate more on them each time i ask.
I'm scared that if i get therapy they will only try to "normalize" me and that everything will be solved and there will be nothing else for me to figure out about myself.
I've never read a book unless i had to for school. But i enjoy reading about psychology.

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So, you are, like we are, a people helper. And like other students of the human condition, you want to figure out who you are. Cool.

Your fear of them trying to normalize you in counseling is half-smart. First, they will try to normalize you, at least to make you less unusual (You have taken an unusual position, a gutsy and scary one; if you can muster up the discipline to do the work your position leads to over a long time, it might just pay off.).

The second, less-smart half is not realizing that they can't normalize you. They can only interact with you in ways that will wear away the superficial rough spots, the social negativity, the hardness. I know that from having years of therapy. You haven't had that experience, and as a teenager, you feel more vulnerable. Let's address that later.

And, there is zero chance that everything will be solved and there will be nothing else for you to figure out about yourself. The discovery about who you are is lifelong. Nobody gets to the "bottom." Discovery is endless. And in this process, you will never be bored.

Once again, make sure that you tell me, do we have an agreement? If so, you have some reading to do, a video to watch, and some note taking to get going. I am very interested in your responses to all of it.

The next steps will be to develop yourself and to wake up your capabilities for capturing and understanding what is going on in you. Just as you said, by understanding your own processes, you can understand and help others. The required development focuses on your self-management or personal discipline and your determination to persevere over time. Throughout the whole process, you are in charge of yourself.

To start this development. You need a working state, a state of mindbody in which you can reflect, discover, and learn. It should be calm, curious, safe from self-judgment or anybody else's judgment, sensitive to subtle cues coming from your unconscious mind, and totally honest. You create this state by sitting quietly, talking to yourself in your mind as if you were talking with your closest friend (which you are), and telling yourself how you want to function when doing inner work.

I define inner work as any self-reflective thinking, feeling, uncovering, and learning about oneself that a person does. Please take 10-20 minutes a day to start ,and turn your attention inward for that time. You can think, talk to yourself, listen to your mind, or just pay attention to your breathing. Just go inside and focus on your process.

The goal is to create a mental/emotional environment that makes self-discovery easy, effective, and ultimately efficient. It's like having a workshop or laboratory in which you grow.

Once you write back about your responses to the video and thread, I'll know where we have to focus. I love books and have learned a lot from good authors, so I will recommend some remarkable ones to you. But their value depends on how good of a reader you can be. Please tell me: your age, grade in school, level of academic skill (be candid), problems you have with learning, concerns you have about our learning process on this forum, and how aggressive you want to be in the reading department. I know that the greatest growth you will have will come from self-discovery, but books teach you how to communicate your discoveries in useful ways.

That's enough for now. Got to sleep.

Welcome to the path.

tao

Yes we have an agreement. I'm 14, I'm in the 10th grade, I get A's and B's.
Problems I have with learning? If you talking about school I don't think I have any anymore, but math has now gotten hard for me. If not. I don't usually listen when people tell me not to do things. Id rather learn the lesson on own and I don't always learn it.
Concerns I have about our learning? That once school starts back I will be to distracted by everything else that I will stop this and redirect my focus on other things and time will be waisted and I will have to start from the beginning next summer. And when school starts I will no longer be as bored and I won't be alone as much and I will have less time to think and explore. Also that I will become lazy and start not to care and just say whatever because ido that with other things. Also that I will be so deep in this that I can't concentrate on school and my mom will freak out that my grades are dropping and start taking things away like the internet.

You said your mother doesn't let you do what you want. Could it be that you're not getting your way, and just wanting to add more drama to your " poor,poor pitiful me" life? You write better than some adults here , and seem smart. So why not think this out? Try immersing yourself in some type of "new" studies. How about a new language? I hope you find your happiness. Good luck to you young lady.

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Originally Posted by jmjoseph

You said your mother doesn't let you do what you want. Could it be that you're not getting your way, and just wanting to add more drama to your " poor,poor pitiful me" life? You write better than some adults here , and seem smart. So why not think this out?. Try immersing yourself in some type of "new" studies. How about a new language? I hope you find your happiness. Good luck to you young lady.

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In the beginning about a year ago that's exactly how I felt. I wanted more drama to make my life seem more worth it. I wanted attention, but not from just anyone. I wanted it from my family. When I tried to get attention from my family about good things they just said OK and ignored me. So I tried different ways but that didn't work. The only attention I got was negative. Now I see no use in trying anymore. I realize now that I should focus on pleasing me not them and giving myself attention... I don't see a reason to find something "new". I've never read anything just for fun except psychology. And I am also going to take a class to learn a new language.

You basically sound like a dare devil type personality that is bored with things and want some adventure. You need to learn to channel your desires in a constructive direction rather than a negative one. Think of some adventurous hobbies or careers you can see yourself enjoying and focus on working toward them.

My son was rather the same way. He ended up joining the Army. I tried talking him into getting into pyrotechnician field but he insisted the Army was where he wanted to be.
He said he couldn't see himself with the typical 9-5 job where you just come home and watch TV, eat and go to sleep only to wake up and go back to work.

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Originally Posted by Simone21295

In the beginning about a year ago that's exactly how I felt. I wanted more drama to make my life seem more worth it. I wanted attention, but not from just anyone. I wanted it from my family. When I tried to get attention from my family about good things they just said ok and ignored me. So I tried different ways but that didn't work. The only attention I got was negative. Now I see no use in trying anymore. I realize now that I should focus on pleasing me not them and giving myself attention... I don't see a reason to find something "new". I've never read anything just for fun except psychology. And I am also going to take a class to learn a new language.

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As I stated before , this is written intelligently. With that head on your shoulders, at only 14, the world is your pearl. What you want to do is at your fingertips, don't waste your future getting bogged down on the negative. So what your family doesn't make enough time for you right now. You've got to live girl. Go be successful. Don't concentrate on right now. Life is like a rollercoaster ride, there are going to be ups and downs, hills and valleys. Right now you're going through a "down", pick yourself up and go. Keep busy, don't give your mind time enough to think these bad thoughts. Read. Write. Enjoy your summer. Go spend some time doing something all new to you.

Wishing you the best, JMJ.

My recent interest in reading and research I think improved my writing skills... I'm sorry I don't see it as you do. I see it as finding who I am, or becoming who I want to be. Those "negative" things and "bad" thoughts I think can help me with that, through the process of digging into them. I can't just leave all those questions unanswered.

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Originally Posted by Simone21295

yes we have an agreement. im 14, im in the 10th grade, i get A's and B's.
problems i have with learning? if you talking about school i dont think i have any anymore, but math has now gotten hard for me. if not. i dont usually listen when people tell me not to do things. id rather learn the lesson on own and i dont always learn it.
concerns i have about our learning? that once school starts back i will be to distracted by everything else that i will stop this and redirect my focus on other things and time willbe waisted and i will have to start from the beginning next summer. and when school starts i will no longer be as bored and i wont be alone as much and i will have less time to think and explore. also that i will become lazy and start not to care and just say whatever because ido that with other things. also that i will be so deep in this that i can't concentrate on school and my mom will freak out that my grades are dropping and start taking things away like the internet.

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Those are realistic concerns. But you can be sure that none of your self-development work will stop or diminish in importance when you are back in school. Between school and home, the problems you face each day will give you content to digest and process to develop. A little more about that below.

The concern about getting so deep into this that your schooling suffers, let’s keep our antennas open for that possibility. I doubt that it will occur, because inner work will make you less conflicted, more energized, and more able to solve people problems quickly and easily. You will waste less time struggling with others, and your understanding, as it grows, will become something your family respects. That might seem improbable to you now, but remember that you read it first right here. Meanwhile, it will be your job to keep your grades up.

Now, back to this idea:

Content is what people think about, and process is how they think.

Content includes the information, stories, beliefs, ideas, opinions, emotions, fears, desires, interpretations of events, etc. about which people occupy their minds. They typically believe that the content is what is real, what is important. Most people miss the underlying process by which the content gets used.

Everybody has processes for doing what they do. Our process at any given moment is the sum of our abilities: the skills, disciplines, procedures, mental and emotional routines, behavioral patterns, habits, moods, and sensitivities that your inner self uses to get you through the day. Most of this is unconscious.

So, you use a process to handle content. As you figure out how people think, you will find yourself studying both content and process, and you will learn from observing yourself and everybody around you. The world gives every observant learner a rich field in which to play. Once you become a student of these dimensions of human nature, you will never be bored!

Now, test your instinct: When you want to change anything in yourself, or in any relationship, or to help someone else change something in themselves, on which do you concentrate first, content or process?

Think this through. Is it about what you say or how you say it? When working on something within yourself, like (I’m choosing a big one here) transforming your self-limiting reactions to your Mom, will sound logic (content) convince you to break out of your habit patterns (processes) and develop a skillful response that works better for you? Or, is it more effective to change your reactive patterns (processes) first, so that you process her behavior differently?

Noodle on that, along with the other stuff you are doing. If your brain is tired at the end of the day, you will know that you are doing a good job.

Tao

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Originally Posted by Simone21295

my recent interest in reading and research i think improved my writing skills... im sorry i dont see it as you do. i see it as finding who i am, or becoming who i want to be. those "negative" things and "bad" thoughts i think can help me with that, through the process of digging into them. i can't just leave all those questions unanswered.

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I just saw this post and have a thought: In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with going to the darkest of places, researching despair, finding who you are by finding the worst of your capacity for suffering. The question is when. You don't want to go there until you have a solid grounding in the opposite pole, in the lightest place into which you can place your roots.

Then, you enter with skill, with your resources available, and with the ability to deal with whatever comes up and come out transformed by what you learn, not trapped.


Tao

Simone21295; Do you happen to enjoy reading? Do you think you might like to be a writer someday? SS

I think its more about what you say, because if the person is really listeing to you and trying to comprehend, it won't matter how you say it. When people say "its not about what you say but how you say it" I think that means there not really listeing to the WHAT you are saying. But how you say things can also be very important if your trying to give a certain impression or covey a specific emotion to someone in effort to get your point across.

Ishadylady,
It depends on what I'm reading whether I like it or not. As for being a writter I've never given that much thought. I started writing a story or book when I was 11, but I stopped working on it so I never finished it.

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Originally Posted by Simone21295

i think its more about what you say, because if the person is really listeing to you and trying to comprehend, it wont matter how you say it. when people say "its not about what you say but how you say it" i think that means there not really listeing to the WHAT you are saying. but how you say things can also be very important if your trying to give a certain impression or covey a specific emotion to someone in effort to get your point across.

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Good. I like your points. You could take it further and say that because of the human condition, how you say things is very important all the time. Let's look at the question again:

"When you want to change anything in yourself, or in any relationship, or to help someone else change something in themselves, on which do you concentrate first, content or process?"

For me, the majic word is “change.” We are both interested in how people change. If you get really good at what you want to do, you will change the life paths of, perhaps, thousands of people. You will help people see things differently so they suffer less and cause others to suffer less. At least, I believe that such is your intention. And if you change only one, and become the person you want to become, that's more than enough.

How easy is it for people to change? If it's a habit, a behavior, beliefs, finding out that they are wrong about something, repeatedly making a mistake, are people eager to change? Or, do they tend to get defensive? And, when people are defensive, how well do they listen? When they are afraid, anxious, in physical or emotional pain, and when they are on the attack? Aggressive? Greedy?

When people are even a little distressed, they don't listen well. The more powerful the emotional charge they are carrying around, the less they can listen to anyone but their own minds. Since the amount of emotional tension in society is unimaginable, and add to that the “normal” behavior of people in today's culture, are they in general good listeners? Or are they distracted most of the time--with IMs buzzing in their heads and hands, tweets, or money problems, or daydreams about whatever.

You can't count on people listening. You have to be able to generate effective communications anyway. That's all about skill. Before I direct you to some video, let me pose the following statements:

All human beings are unconscious most of the time. We are not asleep; we are just not paying attention to the present moment. So we are not conscious of a huge amount of what goes on. Some people are better than others, but learning how to be present has been a major problem since recorded history.

Even our neurosensory systems don't register the great majority of what occurs around us. We don't see the whole light spectrum, only a small bandwidth. We don't hear what dogs can hear, only a small fraction. We don't smell (consciously) the pheromones that moths smell. And we don't feel the molecular nature of matter, especially the fact that objects made of atoms and molecules are mostly empty space. That still blows my mind.

Instead, we sense and decode experiences that are limited by our ability to sense and decode experience. What we can't decode, we distort to fit our existing way of thinking or we delete it from our thoughts. When we are stressed, we distort more. Where there are blanks, we fill them in with material from our imaginations.

So, sit with the question some more. I'm making the case that you address process first. What do you think that is about?

Also, please tell me how the language I use works for you. If you understand and relate to my way of saying things, I will have more fun and you will have an easier time learning. But you've got to tell me straight up if I'm making sense or just throwing words at you.

I hope you are enjoying the stuff I sent you to. I'm eager to know your impression. Also, for this communication-for-change thing, go to uTube and search for Derren Brown. Watch as many clips as you can from what comes up. This guy really understands the mind and he plays with it exceptionally well. Imagine what you would do if you had his skill. When you are ready, tell me what you think.

Tao

Simone
If you enjoy writing(which you sound as though you are quite good at expressing yourself so we all understand what you are saying), it would be helpful to you and perhaps to lots of other people someday if you would write all this down and keep it. When you get out of this dark place you are in, take it out and read it. Write a book about it. SS
Ps just copy/paste all these answers and your questions and comments to word and save them in a file. If you want a step by step just let me know. SS

I skimmed through this thread interested at first but soon becoming bored with it... the OP seems to have nothing better to do but argue with us how she feels... I find there to be no point. I don't think she need any help I think she is just bored and came across an interesting topic and is now playing with us... If you are serious about feeling so much pain and trying to figure out who you are then do so but mental pain is not a toy. It is and emotional and at times physical pain that most people fear enduring.