Ok we all know we have to Die someday, there is no if's an's or buts about it. But there is an Actual " Fear " of the Physical Aspect of the Dying Process. I am not afraid of Death itself per-say, but just the fact of Dying in pain, struggling for my last Breath, Labored Breathing which is very painful and uncomfortable, and that horrible " Death Rattle " that we do upon death.

Now knowing that we all have to die someday does not remove the " Fear " of The dying process, actually it only increases it, knowing that we all must die. I am 47 years old and I see that Death is coming closer and closer, and I just watched my mother die of a horrible sickness that I am afraid to get.

Now is there anyway that one can die a Peaceful and Painless Death without doing that Death Rattle and struggling for breath, that thought just terrifies me ? :eek: :confused:

When we reach the point of the "death rattle" in most cases, we will not be truly aware of what is happening.

At least not on the same level as when we are normal and healthy.

It is a legitimate fear, one that most of us face, I try not to think about it too much or it would interfere with living and enjoying the time we do have left.

I don't know of any way to eliminate the fear itself.

Thank you for your response, yes it is interfering with my life, I have panic attacks about it, I can't sleep at night, and my heart is always beating irregular in my chest. I tried Praying, going to church, meditation and speaking to people, but nothing helps. All most people can say is " We all have to die someday " so just accept it, and live your life to the fullest. Again that still does not remove the " Fear " that I have about the Dying process.

You know its ashamed, Animals can be put to sleep Peacefully when they are terminally ill
But we humans have to go the hard way, Struggling for breath, doing the Death rattle, actually Drowning in our own fluids, and that thought terrifies me, to know that someday I will do that, weather it is tomorrow, or 10, or 20 or 40 years from now, I still cannot remove that Fear as each year that we pass we get closer and closer to our Deaths, and I am just petrified of it.

I guess I look at it a little differently.

I could die in a car wreck on the way home tonight.

That thought alone, stops me from worrying about dying a slow and painful death.

The reality of it all is that unless we are inclined to take our own life, none of us really gets to choose how or when it will happen.

Just knowing that I may not die in such a way, tends to keep the thought from being overwhelming.

I hope you find a way to cope with it though, it has to be a heavy weight to carry everyday.

Yes it is a very heavy weight to Carry, especially since I watched my mother dying for 4 years from Kidney Failure, Diabetes, Gangerne it was a horrible experience. Now that she is gone I am left alone, I have no family of my own, and I am an only child with no brothers or Sisters, so yes with me it is even more freightening, as I live with this fear constantly and I cannot seem so shake it, especially when I saw all of those people in the ICU room on those life support machines it is horrible, when they shut of the machine, that is when the person choacks or suffocates to death, it is just awlful.

In my activities as unpaid volunteer compagnion and attendant in a local hospes, I meet many people at the end of their life. The strange thing is that the more religious people are, the higher their fear is for death. Not for death as a physical act, but for what happens after death.

As a Secular Humanist I do not have any problems with death. Though I like to live as long as possible - subject to remaining healthy and independent - I have no fear for death. It's not different to falling asleep, though without re-awakening.

The fear of death is NOT based on the physical action. It is based on the consequences of years of religious brain washing and inducing that fear to force believers to follow the suggested religious lines.

So if you are terrified of the dying process , first step is to become a Secular Humanist, and free yourself of all these ridiculous religious delusions !

:rolleyes:

You can actually have yourself 'put to sleep' as it were, but you would have to be in a terrible state and terminally ill, I'm not sure if its either Switzerland or Sweden and I'm not entirely sure on what the requirements are, I just know that there have been people to fly out and have it done, but on a basic level what you are essentially doing is committing suicide.

Actually it is legal in the State of " Oregon " too and the name of the Drug they use is called " Euthanasia " and it is known as a " Happy Death " but unfortunately I live in New York City where it is not legal. We have to go out the Hard way, while animals are painlessly put to Sleep and die peacefully and humans have to die from Strangulation or Suffocation from loss of breath, I know what loss of breath is, I had asthma a long time ago and it is horrible, imagine the Agony on our Death beds !

Yea that's the name for it, but my point being people actually fly out there to have it done, doesn't matter where they are.

I have seen two relatives die, one from cancer and one from old age. You mention several times fighting for breath. Neither of them fought for breath. The breathing became increasingly more shallow but there was no panic of any kind whatsoever. The body knows how to handle thousands of problems in life and you can bet it is programmed to handle it final function. Remember, a coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero dies but one.
Harsh, but very true.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

imagin the Agony on our Death beds !

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Have you met with a counselor regarding this fear? I'm guessing you are experiencing a lot of unresolved grief and even anger/guilt that enough wasn't done to relieve the pain and complications of your mother's health problems. Please find someone to help you to work through that.

OK what about the " Death Rattle " that is done upon the person's dying breath ? From what I read on line about it, they are choacking or Drowning in their own syliva that is why we hear that Death Rattle. Also there is something called " Dyspena " which happens when a person is dying they call it struggling for breath or labored breathing which can be quite uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by albear

you can actually have yourself 'put to sleep' as it were, but you would have to be in a terrible state and terminally ill, im not sure if its either Switzerland or Sweden and im not entirely sure on what the requirements are, i just know that there have been people to fly out and have it done, but on a basic level what you are essentially doing is commiting suicide.

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I live in W.Europe. And I am involved in accompanying and attending the dying in the local hospes.

There are several possibilities to speed up the dying process :

First there is the "no-action" instruction for medical staff in hospitals, when the patient has asked for that. (NOTE : the patient self, not his/her family). Patients are than either not revived or - while kept under full medical care - left to die without pain (often in deep sleep).

Second there is non-active euthanasy : not taking any medication other than for pain, to speed-up the dying process.

Third there is the active euthanasy : taking a pill or drink that ends up in dying.

Forth there is suicide.

In countries like the Netherlands the law has been upgraded to allow possibilities 1 to 3.
All of course under strict conditions and full accompany of medical caretakers.
The thought behind it is that it is YOUR LIFE, and you may decide in case of a fatal illness how and when you will die.

Those who for (religious or personal) reasons want to leave death to nature are of course fully supported in that process too.

It is just that in Europe we think a little different about God/Gods and provide the patient with more say in his/her own death.

===

I stated this also in another topic here :

The fear for death is NOT caused by the fear for the physical process. That is just like going to sleep, but without ever waking up again.
The fear for death is induced by a life time of religious brain washing, to get and keep the "sheep" in line towards the "goal" of an afterlife in "heaven".

:rolleyes:

Well that is great for Europe but here in the United States people are left to die in the ICU Rooms, and even if nothing is done to speed up the dying process, they are still suffocating for Air because even those in a Coma, can feel, they may not be able to talk but they still can feel all the pain and discomfort. I know because my Supervisor's Father when he was in a Coma, he was having mini strokes, and he was crying and feeling all of the pain. Regardless if someone is on life support, or pulled from life support, or not on life support they still struggle for Breath and do that horrible " Death Rattle " upon dying .

Putting one to Sleep without them feeling that they cannot breath or suffocating for air is the best, but here in the United States, except for Oregon that is not legal.

People travel there from all over to do it, so just because its not legal in america shouldn't really be a factor unless you can't travel for some reason, in which case I hear drowning yourself is painless and apparently you just go too sleep because of the lack of oxygen to your brain.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

death rattle

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Not everyone dies as horribly as you think and describe. My father died between breaths at a church meeting, and after dessert too! His mother had died peacefully in her sleep. My father's brother died peacefully during a morning nap. My aunt (who had ALS--Lou Gehrig's disease) had trouble breathing toward the end, but there was no gasping or death rattle. I actually look forward to dying--another adventure.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

... but here in the United States, except for Oregon that is not legal.

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So the real problem at your side is the USA moral, ethical, and political views, and not the dying process itself.
Than you know where to start !

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by albear

people travel there from all over to do it, so just because its not legal in america shouldnt really be a factor unless you can't travel for some reason, in which case i hear drowning youself is painless and apparently you just go too sleep because of the lack of oxygen to your brain.

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Actually Drowning is horrible, the people who Struggle for breath as they cannot breath, just try putting your head in the water and don't breath , see how long you can do it before you become so uncomfortable that you jump out of the tub gasping for air.

The Worst Deaths are from Drowning, Suffocation ( Asphyxiation ) and Burning.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

Actually Drowning is horrible, the people who Struggle for breath as they cannot breath, just try putting your head in the water and don't breath , see how long you can do it before you become so uncomfortable that you jump out of the tub gasping for air.

The Worst Deaths are from Drowning, Suffocation ( Asphyxiation ) and Burning.

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Yea but that's because of survival instinct

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

So the real problem at your side is the USA moral, ethical, and political views, and not the dying process itself.
Than you know where to start !

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No I don't care about the moral's of the USA, when a person is dying or suffering do you think they care about morals ? No the problem is when someone is dying and on their death bed, you don't have the physical strength to just pick yourself up and fly to another country, besides it all costs money, and many insurances do not pay for that. Its just not that simple, The dying person may not even make it through the flight to the other country. Besides I am dealing with the USA because I live hear, I wish the USA had the same thinking as Europe does, as when a person is dying they should be made as comfortable as possible, I mean it is their dignity we are talking about, they are dying anyway so why not go out peaceful. Maybe perhaps I would have to move to the State of Oregon before that situation arrives, because things like that we cannot wait for the last minuet.

maybe because the USA is highly religious and they see it as a sin against god that's why they don't have it, I mean I'm supprised there is even one state that allows it, oh you don't fly out at the last minute you fly out wel in advance

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Not everyone dies as horribly as you think and describe. My father died between breaths at a church meeting, and after dessert too! His mother had died peacefully in her sleep. My father's brother died peacefully during a morning nap. My aunt (who had ALS--Lou Gehrig's disease) had trouble breathing toward the end, but there was no gasping or death rattle. I actually look forward to dying--another adventure.

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Well my mother did, the Day she was dying, I received a phone call at work saying she was taken to the " ICU " Room at the hospital because she was having problems breathing.
When I went to see her after I left work, she was on some machine taped to her mouth, her hands were ice cold, but her face was still warm. She looked like she was very uncomfortable and in pain, although she was unconscious she could not express herself but that does not mean she did not feel anything. I know the week before that she was in great pain as I was there and she was telling how sick she felt and how much pain she was in. Well that night 3 hours after I left the ICU, she Died. It was a horrible experience for me. I even watched my Cat die, many years back he had Feline Lukemhemia and he was gasping for breath as he was dying and his eyes were all glossy and just staring into space. My experiences with Death have been horrible, with my family and pet. Also it is known that when people are dying they get " Dyspena " which is difficult breathing and very painful at that, then towards the end when they are taking their last breaths they do the " Death Rattle ". It is just awlful what we have to go trough when we are leaving this world. I don't mind leaving, but I want to leave in Peace and tranquality, not in suffering.

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Originally Posted by albear

maybe because the USA is highly religeous and they see it as a sin against god thats why they dont have it

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That's not why active euthenasia is illegal. Passive euthenasia is legal though.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

Also it is known that when people are dying they get " Dyspena " which is difficult breathing and very painful at that, then towards the end when they are taking their last breaths they do the " Death Rattle ". It is just awlful what we have to go trough when we are leaving this world. I don't mind leaving, but i want to leave in Peace and tranquality, not in suffering.

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Only some do. Perhaps there's a low pain threshold in your family? And why did you allow your cat to suffer? Your family could have done something about that.

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Originally Posted by albear

maybe because the USA is highly religeous and they see it as a sin against god thats why they dont have it, i mean im supprised there is even one state that allows it, oh you dont fly out at the last minute you fly out wel in advance

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Yes there is one State that I believe it is legal here in the USA and that is in the State of Oregon, but that is the only State I heard of so far. The USA considers it Suicide or Assisted Suicide, that is why they don't allow it. But animals are allowed to be put painlessly to sleep, so they don't suffer. I Should think that Humanity should get the same treatment , as I would rather be put to sleep that to die from lack of air, suffocation. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Only some do. Perhaps there's a low pain threshold in your family? And why did you allow your cat to suffer? Your family could have done something about that.

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Actually when my Cat Died my Father had just passed away one week ago, and my mother and myself was in a very bad state of mind. My Cat I had taken to the Vet a few weeks ago, he told me that Cats maybe can through it off, not like people. So I paid the vet 575.00 just to help save my cat, actually Felix my cat belonged to myself and my Father
But you are right, that cat should have been put to sleep. We put our first cat to sleep Smokey who had developed Feline Luhkemia also. That was a very hard time for myself and my mother, when my Dad passed, then right after I lost my cat.

Well my mother had her Leg amputated from Gangerne, that is painful in itself. She was a Diabetic and was on Dialysis for failing kidneys, But no one in my family either on my mothers side or fathers side died peacefully. Actually even the ones who die in their sleep we don't know what they feel, as even people in Coma's can feel pain, just because they cannot express it does not mean they are peaceful. Actually I don't think there is any peaceful way to leave this world. Except if we are put to sleep like the animals are.

In Sorrow,
Sorry to hear about your losses.

I agree with wondergirl, you have a lot of unresolved issues,concerning your losses and the information you seem to have acquired regarding death.
Death is different for different people,not everyone is struggling for breathe as they die,not everyone suffers during death,and we as onlookers seeing our loved ones dies maybe more painful to us than to the person dying.

Regarding your fear of the "death rattle" as you keep mentioning,you need professional help.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

In Sorrow,
Sorry to hear about your losses.

I agree with wondergirl, you have a lot of unresolved issues,concerning your losses and the information you seem to have acquired regarding death.
Death is different for different people,not everyone is struggling for breathe as they die,not everyone suffers during death,and we as onlookers seeing our loved ones dies maybe more painful to us than to the person dying.

Regarding your fear of the "death rattle" as you keep mentioning,you need professional help.

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I Believe I do need professional help, because it is stoping me from living my life, I am waking up with my heart racing in my chest, at night I don't sleep, and I am even fearful at work, It is interfering with my quality of life. Yes I need to find a good support group perhaps or some Bereavement counseling, but I just don't know where to look . Actually to remove the fear of the Dying process, is hard because since we cannot stop it, the fear is only more real as each day passes, and I am terrified to inherit my mother's illness or just to die of Suffocation.

In Sorrow,
Support groups are not that hard to find if you prefer the web support groups like these-
Lightning Strike Pet Loss Support :: Death of Pet, Sick Pet, Pet Loss Grief, Message Board, Chat Room
Grief Support Groups, Resources, Coping with Grief, Dealing with Death. H.O.P.E. Unit, Los Angeles California


According to the following article,you maybe just experiencing part of the grieving process.
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UCB: Responding to Death: Grief and Loss
II. Stages of Grief

Within the first few weeks to months after a death, you may find yourself riding on a roller coaster of shifting emotions. Most people go through these stages not in linear steps, but in unpredictable waves-- moving through one stage to the next and sometimes shifting back. Some people will also experience certain phases but not others. Here are several common, typical grief reactions:

* SHOCK/DISBELIEF
This is the numbing, disorienting sense that the death has not really happened, not really occurred. This reaction can be intensified and complicated if the death is sudden, violent, or unanticipated. Your mind may be telling you "there must be some mistake," or "this can't be true." These symptoms typically last from several hours to several days.

* ANGER
Your anger may be targeted at a number of sources. You may feel waves of anger at the doctors who treated your loved one, anger at your family members for not rallying together, anger at God over what seems senseless or unjust, even anger at yourself or the person who died and "left" you.

* GUILT
You may blame yourself for not doing more, not being there enough, or not being there when the death happened. You may feel regret over "unfinished business" -- conflicts you and the deceased never resolved, or feelings between the two of you that were never fully discussed or shared.

* SADNESS
You may experience a deep sense of loss. There may be moments when you find yourself at a loss for words, weeping, or bursting uncontrollably into tears.

* FEAR
There may be anxiety or panic; fears about carrying on, fears about the future. If the person who died was an adult (partner, sibling, parent), it may bring up fears about your own sense of mortality or sense of being left behind.
* DEPRESSION
You may go through periods of melancholy, or "blueness," where you feel inclined to withdraw or isolate yourself. You may lose interest in your usual activities, or feel helpless or hopeless.
-------------------------------

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

No i don't care about the moral's of the USA, when a person is dying or suffering do you think they care about morals ?

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I did not ask you if you cared about that or not. I stated that the real problem at your side is the USA moral, ethical, and political views, and not the dying process itself. Weekly I see people dying, but most of the time their suffering is mainly from fear for dying, and not caused by pain (pain can be taken to an extreme low level by medicines).

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

No the problem is when someone is dying and on their death bed, you don't have the physical strength to just pick yourself up and fly to another country, besides it all costs money, and many insurances do not pay for that.

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Here you just make some phone calls, are interviewed by a psychiater and a lawyer, and you can make - if approved - an arrangement with a medical specialist in euthanasia on date and time. At home even, if you prefer (and most do that).

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

Besides i am dealing with the USA because i live hear, i wish the USA had the same thinking as Europe does, as when a person is dying they should be made as comfortable as possible, I mean it is their dignity we are talking about, they are dying anyway so why not go out peaceful. Maybe perhaps i would have to move to the State of Oregon before that situation arrives, because things like that we cannot wait for the last minuet.

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If you have a problem with the fear of dying by people (the topic here) , than address the cause of that fear. I can not help that that is - in your case - caused by the USA mindset. Just start doing something about it !

Do you think that in Europe these changes in law did introduce themselves? Years of pressure were required before governments started to listen to the demands. Again : start doing something about it !

Of course I realize that this does not solve the problem of your present feelings due to recent losses.
I wish you strength in coming to terms with your feelings !

:)

If you don't die a quick death, the very best way to go, then you will be lying down and gradually stopping breathing. Medical science will make your death painless. Don't fight it, just let go.

Just relax and let go, as the oxygen in your blood decreases more and more, you will have an altered state of mind and then, slip away quietly into nothingness. Peaceful.

Hello Mary Sue !

The problem here seems to be multiple : one is about getting to terms with recent losses.
Another one is about the facilities open to the dying for euthanasia.
Again another is about the lack of such facilities due to the local ethical and political views.

I am glad to live here, and be able to control - if necessary - when and how I will die, if there ever will be a need for that.

:)

Post #5 : progunr disagrees: "If you really read her post, you would know that her fear is not of the afterlife, it is of the dying process itself".

In my reply I clearly stated that in my activities as unpaid volunteer compagnion and attendant in a local hospes, I meet many people at the end of their life. The strange thing is that the more religious people are, the higher their fear is for death. Not for death as a physical act, but for what happens after death.

So I referred to and addressed the actual dying process. But my findings as a specialist in these matters are that it is NOT the physical dying process that produces the fear of dying for most people. That fear is caused by the consequences of years of religious brain washing and inducing that fear to force believers to follow the suggested religious lines.

If progunr has a problem with my findings - findings that are based on actual working in a hospes, and clearly against his/her religious views - than he/she should address that. Not by rating my post negatively.

:)

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Originally Posted by Choux

If you don't die a quick death, the very best way to go, then you will be lying down and gradually stopping breathing. Medical science will make your death painless. Don't fight it, just let go.

Just relax and let go, as the oxygen in your blood decreases more and more, you will have an altered state of mind and then, slip away quietly into nothingness. Peaceful.

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Ah I wish it were that easy, but its not, I watched my mother and her breathing difficulties were very bad, you see when you are dying your Respitatory system shuts down, and yes you get what we call " Dyspena " labored breathing and gasping for air, which causes later on the " Death Rattle " which is most heard from people in the dying process.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

Ok we all know we have to Die someday, there is no if's an's or buts about it. But there is an Actual " Fear " of the Physical Aspect of the Dying Process. I am not afraid of Death itself per-say, but just the fact of Dying in pain, struggling for my last Breath, Labored Breathing which is very painful and uncomfortable, and that horrible " Death Rattle " that we do upon death.

Now knowing that we all have to die someday does not remove the " Fear " of The dying process, actually it only increases it, knowing that we all must die. I am 47 years old and i see that Death is coming closer and closer, and i just watched my mother die of a horrible sickness that i am afraid to get.

Now is there anyway that one can die a Peaceful and Painless Death without doing that Death Rattle and struggling for breath, that thought just terrifies me ? :eek: :confused:

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I am so sorry for all that you've been through, but your mothers fate, as sad as it was is not yours from the day we are born we are also dying there can be beauty in both remember the body dies the spirit lives on:)

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

Ah i wish it were that easy, but its not, i watched my mother and her breathing difficulties were very bad, you see when you are dying your Respitatory system shuts down, and yes you get what we call " Dyspena " labored breathing and gasping for air, which causes later on the " Death Rattle " which is most heard from people in the dying process.

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I understand your feelings and sympathize with them, but the question remains : why did your mother had to go through this all? Why did nobody assist to end it before getting to this situation? Was it her wish to go to the bitter end? Or was it that no such facilities were available?

:)

Assisted Dying is not allowed hear in NY, we were not even allowed to take her home, they kept her against our will, because she was a Dialysis patient and needed her treatments 3 times a week. When her breathing became labored they took her to the ICU room, the fact is before she was taken to the ICU Room she already had trouble breathing at that point she was already suffering as she developed Resipatory failure, so all they could do was take her too the ICU Room and monitor her condition, until she finally passed on three hours after I left. When I saw her she was as cold as ice, her hands and her arms, were already turning a dark color, I knew she was dying, she was unconscious and did not even know I was there, but I was crying so much even if she woke up I probably would not have been much comfort to her. She had her leg amputated due to developing Gangerne, that is when her condition became much worse, then it all started to go downhill from there.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

Assisted Dying is not allowed here in NY...

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Yes, that says it all. And it shows the religious-ethical-political component that prevents people from living (and dying) the way they would select if they were free to decide for that themselves.

There are two approaches for you to react to this for your so horrible experience :

- learn to resign to the present general line of thought - that as human being you have no influence on the way you (have to) depart.
- start campaigning against that line of thought : become an advocate of euthanasia (within whatever level
- of restriction). This in memory of your mother and to prevent others to have to go through the same "hell".

I am sure the first alternative is the least demanding, though certainly not the most satisfying.

I wish you much strength in the process of coping with this experience.

:)

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Yes, that says it all. And it shows the religious-ethical-political component that prevents people from living (and dying) the way they would select if they were free to decide for that themselves.

There are two approaches for you to react to this for your so horrible experience :

- learn to resign to the present general line of thought - that as human being you have no influence on the way you (have to) depart.
- start campaigning against that line of thought : become an advocate of euthanasia (within whatever level
- of restriction). This in memory of your mother and to prevent others to have to go through the same "hell".

I am sure the first alternative is the least demanding, though certainly not the most satisfying.

I wish you much strenght in the process of coping with this experience.

:)

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Yes you are absolutely right, as a human being we have no control over the way we die, that is what makes the " Fear " even more real, because I can't control it. So since I know what to expect I am terrified of it, it's like a prisoner on death row, he know he is going to be executed he can't control it, but deep inside the Fear is very real and it cannot controlled

Also me being an " Advocate of Euthanasia " would be great I am all for it, but it would take a lot more than just me saying this law needs to be past, even if I can start an entire rally in favor for it, the Stupid USA government sees it as Suicide, so they would not even pass that law. The only sure way would be if was to move to the State of Oregon, and hopefully by that time they will still be practicing it.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

Yes you are absolutely right, as a human being we have no control over the way we die, that is what makes the " Fear " even more real, because i can't control it. So since i know what to expect i am terrified of it, it's like a prisoner on death row, he know he is going to be executed he can't control it, but deep inside the Fear is very real and it cannot controlled

Also me being an " Advocate of Euthanasia " would be great i am all for it, but it would take alot more than just me saying this law needs to be past, even if i can start an entire rally in favor for it, the Stupid USA government sees it as Suicide, so they would not even pass that law. The only sure way would be if was to move to the State of Oregon, and hopefully by that time they will still be practicing it.

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I disagree I think that we can control how we die, up to a certain point, yes there are more... horrible ways to die, and a lot of unexpected ones, but if we get to the point where we can feel that our time is soon then we can choose how we end it, carry on down the path of nature or end it by our own means, it's the unexpected ones that catch us off guard, but what I'm getting from you is that you want to be able to kill yourself legally (tell me if I'm wrog), but really it would be taking a life and that's murder and although many criminals would hope they change it from being against the law am afraid I just don't see that happening.