As a believer in The Creator of the worlds, I have always wondered how an atheist comes to the conclusion that God is non existent ?
Please do not think that I am going to argue your points,just curious!! :confused:
Thanks in advance.
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As a believer in The Creator of the worlds, I have always wondered how an atheist comes to the conclusion that God is non existent ?
Please do not think that I am going to argue your points,just curious!! :confused:
Thanks in advance.
They just don't... they see things in a more logical sense or what's logical to them perhaps. Some people just don't feel the need to believe in god... once we die we die and that's that.
Here's the way I see it:
You either have the capacity for religious faith, or you don't. Either your brain says "Sure, this thing sounds good, let's go with that." or it says, "Are you nuts? No way!" Most atheists rely on PROOF of things, evidence, science, and so on. To believe in a god, you must suspend that desire for evidence and let yourself go, so to speak. To me, that's what the "capacity for faith" is.
This of course can bring up the argument of who is right, who's belief is better, blah blah blah. To me, it doesn't matter. Religion works for you? Great, go for it. Atheism works for you? Great, go for that.
Then there are also the people who "lose" their faith; perhaps a loved one dies, they lose their job and their dog gets run over all in one day. For some people, when too many bad things happen in a row, they lose their faith because they think god wouldn't do this if he exists.
For me, I was born without the capacity for religious faith. My brain just won't let me accept it - it seems to illogical and irrational. I also see the horrible things people do to themselves and others in the name of religion, and I want no part of that.
Why would you believe? There have been so many gods over the course of humanity that we can't even keep count. Why does anyone of them deserve your worship more than the other.
Religion was invented by man to control large amounts of people. Humans evolved to live in groups of up to 150. With the invention of agricultural humans were able to live in larger groups and the leaders had trouble keeping tribes under control. So they did what every great human leader does when losing control; he invents an enemy. He invents a reason to hate and with the absence of other reasons, you hate for ideals and religion is born.
As for me (this is nauticalstar420's husband) I believe more in black and white, what I can see, and what can be proven. I do believe Jesus Christ walked the earth, but I believe after the years of the story being passed on generation to generation it was altered to what we have today.
If I have offended anybody, I do apologize. I just don't believe that a bibliological being created the entire universe and us as human beings with no proof or no hard physical evidence, but yet it can be proven by a scientific analysis and data of evolution.
Einstein thought it was possible that there is a god involved in creating the Universe.
All the embellishments about the nature of god(s), motives of god(s) and so on found in Bibles, holy scriptures and "revelations" are purely *human fantasizing*, and where humans are involved there are always open or hidden agendas. :)
Enlightnement and wisdom is the result of human minds.
Cordially,
Mary Sue
The way I see it, it demands the inconsistent application of the scientific method and violation of basic logic. For example, complex coded messages would be immediately attributed to intelligemt sources. But the coded instructions or messages in the DNA aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Is DNA a Code?
BTW
Not seeking a debate merely giving my opinion as requested by poster.
Every good scientist thinks this, no need to bring Einstein into it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
Y'know no one here debased the other side until your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
"inconsistent application of the scientific method"
"violation of basic logic"
Indeed.
I read this somewhere and personally enjoy the idea. It might help or it might not. Still worth a read though.
Imagine This...
God is a potato! Sounds funny and even sacrilegious, but its true!
2000 years ago the Roman and Greek empires had as the supreme being in their religious pantheon, Zeus, today the Zeus and all the other Gods of this long gone religion are called 'myths' and in about 2000 years our view of God will most likely have died out and become a 'myth' also. Disney will make a movie about God (like Samson and Hercules).
The point is even if in the future we are worshiping a giant potato as the supreme being/divine creator (God) it will still be the same 'thing' - by any other name a rose will still smell as sweet. And by any other name 'God' will still be as powerful. It is still the same 'Thing' no matter what you call it, or how you envision 'it.
This thing this 'God' is within you. It is within all of us. Call it what you will, visualise it anyway you want. Call it 'He' call it 'She' call it 'It'. It makes no difference it is that same thing no matter what name you give it. Even if you say you don't believe in it, it doesn't matter - that won't make it go away. It is a part of you, a part of all of us, a part of the whole. I'm not a religious person, I don't think of 'It' as 'God' but I know it is there cause I can feel it working in me - I ask for what I want and 'It' delivers. It is also known by other labels - The Law Of Attraction, Universal Law, Universal Mind, God, Ghosts, Spirit etc. Labels! Just labels! Call it what you want. It's real!
But Bluerose - atheists do not acknowledge the existence of a god or gods so the whatever you call it is irrelevant.
I think believing in god is easier than not believing. If one believes, the complexity of the universe becomes so much easier because the burden of thought is no longer there. One just say, god made it and you are done with it. I think we are so afraid of our smallness in the universe that we had to create this comfort zone to justify our weaknesses. Does this make any sense to you? I would like to know...Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
It makes sense to me that some people choose religion for the sake of having some kind of anchor in the whole universe of unknown things.Quote:
Originally Posted by chelisimo
As for me I found my religion to be a balance of all things physical,spiritual and scientific.
One of the reasons I asked my first question was because I cannot imagine a life without a belief in a higher Power or a day of judgement where all people receive their due.
I also wondered about how atheists really deal with death being the end of all things and that there is nothing beyond death.
How do you reconcile with the fact that humans beings in this life are unjust and they die doing injustices without punishment, then if death is the end how does the victim (who is atheist for example) find peace knowing that the perpetrator died without having his/her due?
These are questions I think about and no one need to answer in order to start an argument, but if you could explain that will be wonderful,
Thanks all:)
I understand what you are saying, and Im going to give my interpretation, although Im not atheist, my husband is, and I'm pretty sure I understand his logic...Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
You live to live... if you are bad, you die bad, your memory will live on through those who knew you as being bad that's it... no hell, no eternal punishment.
The idea of heaven is just a way for mortal people to cope with the concept of ending. The idea of hell is for mortal people to cope with the idea of dealing with bad people.
If you are dead by someone's hand, you need no revenge or closure, you are dead the living is what needs this... if you were good, you had a great life, people love you, and will miss you, but you are dead... if you were bad, people will dislike you and you will still be dead... do you see? He views religion as more a way to cope with hard things for the living...
If Im wrong here... someone correct me... that is just how he has explained to me...
Why can't death be the final "due"? Why can't the fact that if you were a horrible person in life, the memory of you being a horrible person lives on? No offence intended, but I think it's a little perverse to want someone to be punished for eternity (especially given some of the "sins" which are supposed to condem you to hell). They're dead, they can't hurt anyone anymore, so who cares? And it's bordering on self-importance to want to or think you will be rewarded for eternity for being a good person. What's wrong with being a good person while you are here and making a name for yourself that you can be proud of?Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Death can be the ultimate punishment to an atheist; once you die you can't make up for past wrongs, you can't do good deeds anymore - it's over. So we make the most of the time we are alive because when we die, that's it. No more, game over. I don't understand the need/desire for religious folks to want to continue into eternity, especially since if your eternal world is so much better than the mortal world you find ways to stay here. I'm not saying suicide is the answer, but if heaven is so great, why take life-saving measures to prolong your life on earth? I don't get it, and I suspect I never will. Anyway, if someone has committed injustices in this world and they die, then I think, "Well good! Now they can't hurt people anymore!" Death IS the due - if you die you CEASE TO BE, what's worse than that? Now I'll give you that there are some horrible people in this world who don't deserve the relief of death (I read a story about a child molester recently who assaulted a 4-month old, for example) and if they die "too soon" it comes to mind, "That's not fair", but at least that guy can't do harm anymore. He can never repent, make people forgive him, he can never have the simple joy of eating a really good steak (or whatever, lol). I don't need to think about how he's being punished for eternity because he's GONE for eternity, and that's good enough.Quote:
I also wondered about how atheists really deal with death being the end of all things and that there is nothing beyond death.
How do you reconcile with the fact that humans beings in this life are unjust and they die doing injustices without punishment, then if death is the end how does the victim (who is atheist for example) find peace knowing that the perpetrator died without having his/her due?
These are questions I think about and no one need to answer in order to start an argument, but if you could explain that will be wonderful,
Thanks all:)
Hope that helps you understand a little better. Also, I commend you on taking a curiosity in atheism and trying to understand it rather than deciding we're all godless monsters. You are a far better man than several on this site...
And just for info I do not believe in good goes to heaven and bad goes to Hell for eternity, I believe in a just due for each whether he be good or bad.No one is all good and no one is all bad for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Thank you for your thoughts jillianleab,
BTW I am a woman!! :)
I posted.........
"I read this somewhere and personally enjoy the idea. It might help or it might not. Still worth a read though.
Imagine This....
God is a potato! Sounds funny and even sacrilegious, but its true!
2000 years ago the Roman and Greek empires had as the supreme being in their religious pantheon, Zeus, today the Zeus and all the other Gods of this long gone religion are called 'myths' and in about 2000 years our view of God will most likely have died out and become a 'myth' also. Disney will make a movie about God (like Samson and Hercules).
The point is even if in the future we are worshiping a giant potato as the supreme being/divine creator (God) it will still be the same 'thing' - by any other name a rose will still smell as sweet. And by any other name 'God' will still be as powerful. It is still the same 'Thing' no matter what you call it, or how you envision 'it.
This thing this 'God' is within you. It is within all of us. call it what you will, visualise it anyway you want. Call it 'He' call it 'She' call it 'It'. It makes no difference it is that same thing no matter what name you give it. Even if you say you don't believe in it, it doesn't matter - that won't make it go away. It is a part of you, a part of all of us, a part of the whole. I'm not a religious person, I don't think of 'It' as 'God' but I know it is there cause I can feel it working in me - I ask for what I want and 'It' delivers. It is also known by other labels - The Law Of Attraction, Universal Law, Universal Mind, God, Ghosts, Spirit etc. Labels! Just labels! Call it what you want. It's real!"
NeedKarma,
"But Bluerose - atheists do not acknowledge the existence of a god or gods so the whatever you call it is irrelevant."
Not necessarily so. The point is that there is more to us and the world we live in. We don't need to acknowledge it as 'God', it is there anyway, whatever you want to call it. Even atheists may be willing to accept 'It' if they didn't have to call it God. And if we need to pin it down and label it we can choose one from a hidden storehouse of knowledge that is within each of us.
I wonder what atheists would make of Deism - Deistic thinking has existed since ancient times and in many cultures. The word Deism is generally used to refer to the movement toward natural theology or freethinking.
Putting aside organised and commercial religion, Deists believe in a Real Religion, a natural religion.
I have only recently learned of Deism but it might be the answer many atheists are looking for. I could be wrong. I'm still in the process of checking it out for myself.
CRAP! Sorry! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
I think that "alkalineangel" answered this one for me. I must tell you that I do not believe but I don't see anything wrong in those who do.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Well I say that they fined no hope in life... the fact that somehow if there was a god why would he create such a ed up world and just let it be... or religion has pushed them way with the hyporacy that they have a lot of the time... me personally I yes beleave in a god that he dose hear me and chooses when to help if it benefits the world in the end... I beleave religion can only take you so far then you have to take your own jorney in life... some don't make it though this jorney though... anways I'm not going to ramble.lolQuote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
There might be a few atheists that choose to be so because of those reasons but certainly not any large percentage. Most don't believe in god in the same reason you don't think Santa Clause is real. Simply the evidence for god just isn't there. It's one of the reasons that as education increases so does the number of atheists in a society, many religions such as the Amish limit the amount of education that there members get so that they can better control them.Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrock58
Interesting topic.
Sadly enough my view is on the agnostic or atheist is that of their own life experience. I mean many people who do not believe are people that have had hard times and blame GOd for their misfortunes. I have had a hard life and nothing comes to me but goes to everyone else and it is not fair, well few people live a life these days consistent with what the bible teaches us. I truly believe that if followed strictly the Bible leads to happiness we never knew possible, including the parts about giving what you have away, the more you practise the more the existence of GOD becomes evident, the further you are away from "good" the further youmove away from GOD. I think the unbeleiver struggles with that, God does not move away from us, we (by our own decisions and actions) move away from him and then the blame game begins. Whew, got a little carried away:)
Actually I find that it quite the opposite. Most ardent believers seem have had some form of trauma and/or abuse in their lives and religion is their coping mechanism. People who have had a great childhood and a good education are more likely to be atheist/agnostic in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
That may require an explanation. I do believe we all question faith when we fall on bad times, that's normal. HOWEVER, personal events go a LONG way in determining how you view God. I doubt the truly happy believe in nothing, I just can't accept that.
Sorry bud, got to disagree with you here. I'm truly happy, my husband is truly happy and we don't believe. Same with a lot of my friends. I can honestly say that aside from superficial things (bigger house, nicer car), I wouldn't change a single thing about my life. I'm proud of what I've done, I'm proud of what I'm doing, I have a family who loves me, I have a really, really great life. I've doubted the existence of god since I was a kid; I remember being really young and thinking, "this just doesn't make sense to me". It took a few years to realize that had a name, but I never subscribed to the religious line of thinking. It had nothing to do with tragedy in my life, not at all. It just never added up, even in my 5-year-old brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
You seem to think atheists are people who hate god; maybe some do, but most don't. It's hard to hate something you don't believe in... I mean, do you hate the Tooth Fairy?
I cannot prove whether you are at a level of happiness in relation to the level one would feel by just knowing there is a GOD and so there's where our debate can go no further. I DO not think atheists hate God, I guess it seems likea crazy idea to them, that's all. My point was that when you do believe the more reasonable the existence of a God becomes, to the point where you cannot imagine anyone NOT believing, that's all.
As for you last question, yes I do hate the tooth fairy, the stiffed me on my wisdom tooth:)
That's the vexing part, we can understand the other side (believers) but you refuse to understand anyone who is not like you. Why is that?
BTW my family is truly happy, so are millions of others who are not like you.
LIKE ME??
What a beleiver, actually there are more "of us" than there are "of you".
Who's to say I do not UNDERSTAND YOU! If your argument is that logically there is no God than that's one thing, I can logically conclude there is. I have no issue with you not believing, not sure where you got that from.
Hello:
Well, I'm an atheist and I'm not happy at all. I guess that proves it.
But, I don't think I'd be happier if I started pretending about things, though. Do you know how silly I would feel if I started pretending? No, you don't, do you?
excon
You say:
But earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
What's up with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
YES, how is that taking issue with the fact you don't believe. My belief is that the truly happy are those that believe in God, are you taking offence at the fact that I am saying your not happy, cause that's not what I mean. I believe spiritually that you reach a happiness through faith which can only be achieved through God. O.k so you are happy great, am I happier than you, I have no clue, were the saints happy, yes they were. This is a spiritual debate, one that cannot determine whether you are happier than say I am or not, it surely goes a little deeper than the previous persons comment about "that proves it". Please see that, and ironically it seems you have a bigger issue understanding my belief than I have understanding yours.
ALSO, to excon:
Saying that would you be happier if you started "pretending" in things is to suggest that those that believe are pretending, which is very insulting to the many that do believe in something. I do not cast insults at you belief system and ask the same out of you.
The issue is that you profess only you can only be truly happy if you believe in God. That of course is incorrect. There are a lot in very unhappy believers in God, what the hell happened to them?
Hello again, BMI:
Boy, I sure didn't intend to insult anybody. I know that if you did what I was talking about, you'd call it praying. I know you'd believe it too, and I'm happy for you.
But, from MY vantage point, were I to do it, I couldn't call it anything else BUT pretending. If that offends you, so be it.
excon
Fair enough my man, I guess we can cool it on that point, If Karma thinks that you can be truly happy without God, than that of course is incorrect, and if offends than so be it.
LAST POINT: How ironic is it that your user name would have the word karma in it?
Why does everything need to be in black or white? Why does religion have to be included in order to understand a greater existence? Why can an atheist not be spiritual and be connected to the energy in the universe that brings enlightenment and awareness?
I am spiritual, I grew up religious and my sister is an atheist, and so is my best friend. I think that it partly has to do with a fear of the unknown and the mystery of life cannot be solved. So, the answer is to say, there isn't anything after this life. How do they know? How can they be so sure? Just as someone who is religious can't be sure, they go on their faith. So an atheist has "faith" that there is nothing after this life, no continuation into the next existence. (Not including a "heaven")
Ever read a Conversation with God? It is an interesting book, not religious and it puts things into perspective when deciding is God within us and are we really God. Yes, it puts the responsibility on us, to live a life that is loving and compassionate. Not everyone wants that responsibility.
Keep an open mind to what you don't know and don't understand.
I don't really have a point here. I'm not an atheist, but I can understand how they reached their conclusions, and I'm cool with that.
I do want to point out, though, that the only religion that is truly bothered by the idea of atheism is Christianity. At least, the only people I've ever been around that seemed bothered by it in the least were Christians.
I find that interesting.
For the same reason we don't call a boat a fire truck. Because the definitions don't match up. Change "atheist" to "agnostic" and you're on to something.Quote:
Originally Posted by shatteredsoul
UMM no, what does being spiritual have anything to do with religion? It only does if you yourself are religious.
Yes Synn, you are right. I have nothing against anyone who believes whatever they believe. I just think faith in nothing, is still faith, right?
Religion puts people into categories and makes rules to make people feel safe and to know how to live their life.
Spirituality has to do with being connected to the universe and its energy, yes the Universe has its own natural laws, but they are not religious by any means.
Call it what you want, but the definition of religion and spirituality are NOT the same, so they wouldn't match up.
I am a muslim I am not personally against atheism (each one is responsible for his own choices),but I do believe in the fact that denial of the Creator will have its consequences on the person (whether in this world or the next).Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
A muslims main belief being the belief and submission to One and Only God,without associating partners.
This is not a point for argument,just stating my belief.
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