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  • Aug 25, 2007, 08:13 AM
    spiffyness101
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Synnen
    Honestly....I'd say that a god that never changes is scarier than science that changes all the time. Things that never change are unnatural. There is nothing in this world that over time has not changed - today's mountain is tomorrow's riverbed.


    How is the instability of science less scary compared to God who never changes.. Sure change can be good and helpful but it can also be the complete opposite...
  • Aug 25, 2007, 08:31 AM
    excon
    Hello spiffy:

    If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

    Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.

    excon
  • Aug 25, 2007, 09:49 AM
    Thesecretsociety
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rockerchick_682
    What I don't understand, is why you believe god exists. Ok....God created everything in the world, but who created God? What proof do we have? And if God loves us so much, then why are all these terrible things still happening? I think religion is a good thing, keeps your morals and values straight, but I've never had and never will have faith.


    The proof we have is in the scriptures which are proven to be real everyday. God doesn't have a creator, for God is outside of time. Of course we do not understand that because of our logic. The greeks taught everyone what we know now and because of that we do not understand any of that. And God does love us so much, I love it when people ask that question. God isn't a teddy bear! People need to learn that, the bible even says itself that we will face judgement for our actions and not only at the end of times. God wasn't a teddy bear helping and fixing, as it is even said Let Vengeance be his. And some things that are bad are done for the greater good. Imagine as a parent your child steals something insignificant, are you going to punish him? Or are you going to say, I forgive you, just don't do that. And if you do that once, will you do that the second time? God doesn't sit there thinking "How can i be the nicest person today". He is kind , he is strong, he is merciful , but he is also not something to take lightly. If you know anything about in the old days, many people also followed God out of FEAR! Not of people, not of society, but out of fear of his wrath. Now a days people thing that God is a teddy bear and a kind loving one. But God is no fairy tale, nothing is happily ever after. He is nothing to take lightly, for he is a strong forceful God as well. He doesn't sit there and be the kindest in the world. And to all people who say that science is proven right, let me say that is why there is no perfect science, it isn't right 100% at all. And to all those saying the bible is wrong, show me one part that is wrong in it.
  • Aug 25, 2007, 09:50 AM
    spiffyness101
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon
    Hello spiffy:

    If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

    Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.


    That is not what I am saying at all. What I AM saying is that they both combine together very well. Christians use a lol of science to help explain many things. What am I to be convinced of? That they aren't and are completely separate and different and don't belong together in any way or form?

    I know what science is, granted I may not know everything there is to know about it but who really does know everything possible(as of on this Earth)? I do, however, know enough to decipher on my own what I believe and hold to be true.
  • Aug 25, 2007, 10:08 AM
    jillianleab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Thesecretsociety
    The proof we have is in the scriptures which are proven to be real everyday. God doesnt have a creator, for God is outside of time. Of course we do not understand that because of our logic. The greeks taught everyone what we know now and because of that we do not understand any of that. And God does love us so much, I love it when people ask that question. God isnt a teddy bear! People need to learn that, the bible even says itself that we will face judgement for our actions and not only at the end of times. God wasnt a teddy bear helping and fixing, as it is even said Let Vengence be his. And some things that are bad are done for the greater good. Imagine as a parent your child steals something insignificant, are you going to punish him? Or are you going to say, I forgive you, just dont do that. And if you do that once, will you do that the second time? God doesnt sit there thinking "How can i be the nicest person today". He is kind , he is strong, he is merciful , but he is also not something to take lightly. If you know anything about in the old days, many people also followed God out of FEAR! Not of people, not of society, but out of fear of his wrath. Now a days people thing that God is a teddy bear and a kind loving one. But God is no fairy tale, nothing is happily ever after. He is nothing to take lightly, for he is a strong forceful God as well. He doesnt sit there and be the kindest in the world. And to all people who say that science is proven right, let me say that is why there is no perfect science, it isnt right 100% at all. And to all those saying the bible is wrong, show me one part that is wrong in it.

    Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

    I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

    And bible errors? There's this website thingy, it's called "google" and if you type stuff into it and hit "search" you get a bunch of other website thingys with information. Try it. Here's one for you:

    Bible Errors and Contradictions

    And this one is my favorite, because it gives you a handy pocket guide to refer to:

    7 E-Z Steps to get a handy collection of Bible Contradictions and Problems - ExChristian.Net - Articles

    Happy reading!
  • Aug 25, 2007, 10:15 AM
    Thesecretsociety
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon
    Hello spiffy:

    If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

    Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.

    excon


    What a pastor says and what is real, I know that is different. Pastors cannot say many things that are contraversial. What people don't realise is that science cannot trulely find the answer, even things that most of science is based on they do not know anything to its full extent, they cannot find final answers and that is because the way they are doing it is wrong. What people don't realise is what Science is , is basically a book of false things that everyone tries to use to prove God wrong. People don't even know that for almost every theory out there currently, there are theorys with just as much proof proving them wrong. For instance, one theory we all know. Global Warming, did you know they have basically proven that Global warming is actually the result of the suns heat cycles? They say that it is proven by the layers of rock alone. So if you believe in science for telling you all about life, and if you have faith in it as for telling you the truth, then you are the one that is living in ignorance. You cannot believe in something that cannot even believe in itself, Science changes every second, proving the last second was wrong. What you don't believe is that a belief in science is a belief in God to most people. Because if you do not believe in religion and you replace it with something, you always come up with a scientific fact to prove your right. I would like to hear one person tell me a reason Christianity is instantly wrong, without any science. But what even most Christians don't realise is I would like to see one of them to fully explain most things that happened in the bible with No science as well.
  • Aug 25, 2007, 10:36 AM
    Thesecretsociety
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jillianleab
    Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

    I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

    And bible errors? There's this website thingy, it's called "google" and if you type stuff into it and hit "search" you get a bunch of other website thingys with information. Try it. Here's one for you:

    Bible Errors and Contradictions

    And this one is my favorite, because it gives you a handy pocket guide to refer to:

    7 E-Z Steps to get a handy collection of Bible Contradictions and Problems - ExChristian.Net - Articles

    Happy reading!

    This let me say is something I'm aware of, but as I stated earlier, The Bible has had many problems among translation and some of them is because the way we comprehend it is different. For instance, in the Bible when it Mentions God, It doesn't always mean the same thing. For instance God can be , Jesus, God, Or the Holy sprit. Second off many things that are said are just beyond our Comprehension. For instance, when he takes him up to see the kingdoms, that is explained by the meaning of kingdoms. But most of it is , the meaning of the words in our mind, and the actuality of them is different. But the Bible has been changed so much throughout the years, and that is what causes the difference in little things. I stated how the bible is infallible, but the people who make bibles in this generation and in the last ones , were not. There were the people who God Ordained to write his scriptures Unfortunately the gaps in the generation cause a lot of grief in the translation.
  • Aug 25, 2007, 11:08 AM
    spiffyness101
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jillianleab
    Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

    I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

    So are you simply denying the things that have been proven from the Bible to be true, now all of the sudden false? Its not about following a deity that's scary or frightening just a God that loves the people He created... Yes, He does have wrath and it is something to be afraid of but the reasons for His wrath is, if you actually look, are within reasoning,maybe not to our reasoning or understanding but then His thoughts are nothing compared to ours.

    You haven't truly looked at it as a whole if that is all you have come to the conclusion of. : /
  • Aug 25, 2007, 11:14 AM
    Capuchin
    Jill, funny you should mention unicorns, did you know that they are mentionned in the KJV a total of nine times?
  • Aug 25, 2007, 11:53 AM
    jillianleab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spiffyness101
    So are you simply denying the things that have been proven from the Bible to be true, now all of the sudden false? Its not about following a deity thats scary or frightening just a God that loves the people He created...Yes, He does have wrath and it is something to be afraid of but the reasons for His wrath is, if you actually look, are within reasoning,maybe not to our reasoning or understanding but then His thoughts are nothing compared to ours.

    You haven't truly looked at it as a whole if that is all you have come to the conclusion of. : /

    Perhaps you should indicate which parts of the scripture you think have been proven, and then we can discuss this properly.

    I understand following a religion is not about fear, and if you read carefully, that's not what I said. I said I don't understand why you would want to follow someone who will condemn you to hell for being fat. I'm sure you have your reasons and perhaps the good outweighs the bad, but that doesn't mean it doesn't seem completely illogical and senseless to me. I have studied religion, so don't assume that's the only thing I base my conclusions off. And sorry, but,

    "if you actually look, are within reasoning, maybe not to our reasoning or understanding"

    Makes no sense. You are saying god's reasoning is justified, but not justified to your personal reasoning, but since it's god, it must be okay? Got it. It's like when your mom tells you you can't do something because she says so; it's because god says so. What beautiful reasoning and logic! Perhaps if you take the time to read all the posts in this thread you will have a better understanding of why atheists choose to be atheists instead of making assumptions.
  • Aug 25, 2007, 12:52 PM
    rockerchick_682
    What sins have we committed to deserve what he's done to us? If there really was a God, I'd think we'd know by now, there'd be no doubt. Science explains much more than religion ever will. There is NO proof that God exists, prove me wrong. It IS possible to have morals and values without religion. If you weren't brought up to believe in God, would you still have faith?
  • Aug 25, 2007, 01:41 PM
    spiffyness101
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jillianleab
    Perhaps you should indicate which parts of the scripture you think have been proven, and then we can discuss this properly.

    I understand following a religion is not about fear, and if you read carefully, that's not what I said. I said I don't understand why you would want to follow someone who will condemn you to hell for being fat. I'm sure you have your reasons and perhaps the good outweighs the bad, but that doesn't mean it doesn't seem completely illogical and senseless to me. I have studied religion, so don't assume that's the only thing I base my conclusions off of. And sorry, but,

    "if you actually look, are within reasoning, maybe not to our reasoning or understanding"

    makes no sense. You are saying god's reasoning is justified, but not justified to your personal reasoning, but since it's god, it must be okay? Got it. It's like when your mom tells you you can't do something because she says so; it's because god says so. What beautiful reasoning and logic! Perhaps if you take the time to read all the posts in this thread you will have a better understanding of why atheists choose to be atheists instead of making assumptions.


    Okay well first I highly doubt you are going to go to hell for being fat, not very likely, and no where have I read that, no where. We're sinful people but you'll never believe that and another topic... What about the parts of Jesus actually walking the earth and being alive? Him being crucified.. Has that not been proven?

    As for the reasoning part, sometimes the reasons He has a lot of times we ourselves don't understand or comprehend to clearly. Our way of justice and God's is different; His THINKING is different. How come then atheits are trying so hard to disprove something they see millions of people following and believeing everyday? All I am saying is God isn't some horrible person sitting in the sky waiting to condemn people and punish them for their wrong doing, as much as so many wish to deny that fact He isn't. The God I believe in, my Savior, is Just, Fair, and Loving yet has Wrath that is unleashed when HE sees fit even though we may not. A little thing Grace and Mercy. Grace = Getting something GOOD you DON'T deserve and well Mercy = NOT getting something bad you DO deserve. But that's another topic... My point is we all have our opinions and such and have the freewill to express those if we so desire. This is simply my opinion and belief. : /
  • Aug 25, 2007, 01:42 PM
    firmbeliever
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rockerchick_682
    What sins have we committed to deserve what he's done to us? If there really was a God, I'd think we'd know by now, there'd be no doubt. Science explains much more than religion ever will. There is NO proof that God exists, prove me wrong. It IS possible to have morals and values without religion. If you weren't brought up to believe in God, would you still have faith?

    I know many who have grown up without religion but found the Creator of the worlds on their own and accepted it...

    And I believe that the ones who accept the Almighty later in life sometimes have stronger faith than those born into religion as the adult learns and chooses the right path with their heart , and not because the parents taught them to be a certain way.

    And I also know many born into monotheistic religion who have strengthend their faiths as they grow into adulthood because the teachings of religion they have been brought up in brings them peace and satisfaction of the soul (I am one of those):)
  • Aug 25, 2007, 02:04 PM
    spiffyness101
    Agreed. I've grown up in a Christian environment my whole life and I've struggles so much in my faith because it's all I've been taught but it took awhile to actually get it out of just my brain and head and place it in my heart... took some time but it was accomplished. But still if I hadn't grown up in that environment I don't know if would believe, I probably would but my answer will only lead into another topic and discussion...
  • Aug 25, 2007, 02:09 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Thesecretsociety
    What people don't realise is that science cannot trulely find the answer, even things that most of science is based on they do not know anything to its full extent, they cannot find final answers and that is because the way they are doing it is wrong.

    You sure seem to know a lot about what "people dont realise". You keep repeating the mistaken notion that "science" is a set of facts or a search for "final answers", even though it's been pointed out several times that it's a method, not a particular result. If it's final answers, you want, you should definitely stick with religious dogma.
    Quote:

    What people don't realise is what Science is , is basically a book of false things that everyone tries to use to prove God wrong.
    "Everyone"?? You're hanging out with a bad crowd, I'm afraid. I've never met anyone who tried to use science as a "book of false things to prove God wrong".
    Quote:

    So if you believe in science for telling you all about life, and if you have faith in it as for telling you the truth, then you are the one that is living in ignorance. You cannot believe in something that cannot even believe in itself, Science changes every second, proving the last second was wrong. What you don't believe is that a belief in science is a belief in God to most people. Because if you do not believe in religion and you replace it with something, you always come up with a scientific fact to prove your right. I would like to hear one person tell me a reason Christianity is instantly wrong, without any science. But what even most Christians don't realise is I would like to see one of them to fully explain most things that happened in the bible with No science as well.
    I'm sorry, but this is incoherent babble. One more time: Science is not "something to believe in", it's just a technique for continually improving our explanations for observable phenomena.
  • Aug 25, 2007, 07:45 PM
    talaniman
    Science may not explain what's in your heart, but it can tell you how the heart works. To my way of thinking science, and God are not mutually exclusive.
  • Aug 25, 2007, 07:48 PM
    kt1205
    I'm supposed to be catholic. But I don't believe in god, devil, spirits, pcychics, ghosts, life after death, even life... etc.
    Mainly because I see NO proof what so ever. Where did God come from? How is it possible?
  • Aug 25, 2007, 07:48 PM
    kt1205
    How did every little thing begin along long time ago?\
  • Aug 25, 2007, 08:43 PM
    jillianleab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spiffyness101
    Okay well first I highly doubt you are going to go to hell for being fat, not very likely, and no where have I read that, no where. We're sinful people but you'll never believe that and another topic.... What about the parts of Jesus actually walking the earth and being alive? Him being crucified..? Has that not been proven?

    As for the reasoning part, sometimes the reasons He has a lot of times we ourselves don't understand or comprehend to clearly. Our way of justice and God's is different; His THINKING is different. How come then atheits are trying so hard to disprove something they see millions of people following and believeing everyday? All I am saying is God isn't some horrible person sitting in the sky waiting to condemn people and punish them for their wrong doing, as much as so many wish to deny that fact He isn't. The God I believe in, my Savior, is Just, Fair, and Loving yet has Wrath that is unleashed when HE sees fit even though we may not. A little thing Grace and Mercy. Grace = Getting something GOOD you DON'T deserve and well Mercy = NOT getting something bad you DO deserve. But thats another topic...My point is we all have our opinions and such and have the freewill to express those if we so desire. This is simply my opinion and belief. : /

    Gluttony is a sin, no? Yes I use that as an extreme example (get a sense of humor!), but I notice you didn't comment on going to hell for premarital sex... Oh, and you're right, I'll never believe we are "sinful people" because I don't believe in sin! :) As far as Jesus walking the earth and being alive or being crucified, that doesn't really "prove" anything. So some guy was born a really really long time ago, he made stuff up and got people to believe him. He was ordered to death and a few years later some of his followers wrote a book with him as the main character. So... what does that prove? But beyond that, there is question to if Jesus existed at all, so sorry, but you still have no "proof" of anything. Here's a lovely link which presents both sides:

    Did Jesus Christ exist? All sides to the question

    Poke around on the rest of the site. You might learn something.

    As far as atheists being out to "disprove god" I don't know how many atheists you know, but I know a bunch and none are out to disprove god. We are simply happy to go about our day to day activities and not worry that we are going to hell. Oh, and to take your point a little further with regards to millions of people believing in Christianity, well, millions also believe in Islam and Hinduism. Oh and guess what? Non-religious folk account for 1.1 billion people in this world... So perhaps I should ask YOU why YOU are so against something BILLIONS of people believe?? I mean, only 2.1 billion people consider themselves Christian, as far as the world's population goes, that's not very many...
  • Aug 26, 2007, 05:27 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kt1205
    i'm supposed to be catholic. but i don't believe in god, devil, spirits, pcychics, ghosts, life after death, even life... etc.
    mainly because i see NO proof what so ever. Where did God come from? How is it possible?

    Science and religion both are about explanation. Neither one is about proof. If you're looking for proof to base your belief on, forget it. Religion demands belief without proof as a condition of entry and belonging. If you can't believe, then you don't belong, and the "explanations" religion offers will seem ridiculous to you.

    If you don't belong in religion, but you still want explanations for why you were born or why the universe exists, then you're out of luck, because science doesn't even care about those questions, much less answer them. The only place I've found that even approaches these matters is the esoteric or mystical traditions, and even there, the answer is usually "Why are you so worried about this? It isn't really necessary to your next step, is it? Well, then take the next step and quit obsessing over things that don't really concern you."
  • Aug 26, 2007, 06:14 AM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rockerchick_682
    What sins have we committed to deserve what he's done to us? If there really was a God, I'd think we'd know by now, there'd be no doubt. Science explains much more than religion ever will. There is NO proof that God exists, prove me wrong. It IS possible to have morals and values without religion. If you weren't brought up to believe in God, would you still have faith?


    What sins has mankind NOT committed to deserve what He's done to us - sent His only Son to die for our sins?

    If you do not sin, does that mean you think you are perfect? Never lied, or lusted, or gotten angry, always followed your parents, etc..

    Consider this, there are three major religions probably accounting for the majority of the world's population [ I don't have the exact figure on hand ] that believe in ONE GOD. At the beginning, all those religions started with people who were not brought up to believe
    In what they believe now.

    Also notice that on this thread on 'what atheists believe,' God dominates.

    If atheists common denominator is that they don't believe in God, why do they spend all this time "proving" there is no God and wanting believers to prove their faith?


    For example, I don't believe in witches. If you want to believe in them, fine, does not matter to me, because I don't believe they exist. I'm not going to waste my time researching them trying to prove they don't exist or demanding that those who believe in witches show me proof.


    Grace and Peace ---- these we don't deserve, but for Him.;)
  • Aug 26, 2007, 06:27 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Also notice that on this thread on 'what atheists believe,' God dominates.

    Certainly not. How do you come to that conclusion?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    If atheists common denominator is that they don't believe in God, why do they spend all this time "proving" there is no God and wanting believers to prove their faith?

    This thread was started by a very religious person who is trying to understand people who are not like himself. No atheist ever wants to spend time disproving god, they really don't care. Christians however will spend an inordinate amount of time telling that God is everywhere and quoting scripture. To each their own.
  • Aug 26, 2007, 06:39 AM
    inthebox
    Jilleanleab:

    If you don't believe in sin - was that tongue in cheek? - do you believe in right and wrong?

    Are not rules and laws made to define right and wrong? Whether in a secular or religious context? And if you break the law, in general, there is judgement and punishment.

    Now, I know that no one likes to be told what to do, or be told what is right and wrong.
    And no one, in general, likes to be punished. This seems to be what keeps people away from "religion." That and hypocrisy - but I digress.

    But rules and laws are there, whether from God and or man. No escaping that.
    Isn't that what civilization is based on?


    Now imagine this, someone realizes they have done wrong, they also acknowledge that they have to pay the consequences , and fear that.
    Imagine how they would feel if someone else took their punishment [ fines, jail, a caning, the electric chair, whatever.] and they were set free.






    Grace and Peace
  • Aug 26, 2007, 06:44 AM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Certainly not. How do you come to that conclusion?

    This thread was started by a very religious person who is trying to understand people who are not like himself. No atheist ever wants to spend time disproving god, they really don't care. Christians however will spend an inordinate amount of time telling that God is everywhere and quoting scripture. To each their own.


    NK

    Then why do you actively rebut believers in various threads?


    Maybe those same Christians have that inner joy and want to spread the "good news.":D




    Grace and Peace
  • Aug 26, 2007, 06:47 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox

    Maybe those same Christians have that inner joy and want to spread the "good news.":D

    I truly hope you see the hypocrisy in that statement. :)
  • Aug 26, 2007, 07:08 AM
    MOWERMAN2468
    What is sad here is that they will find out that God does exist, and it will only be after it is Everlasting Too Late. Then they will have the perils of Hell for the rest of etenity.
  • Aug 26, 2007, 07:38 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MOWERMAN2468
    what is sad here is that they will find out that God does exist, and it will only be after it is Everlasting Too Late. then they will have the perils of Hell for the rest of etenity.

    Hello Mower:

    What I think is sad, are people wasting their entire lives, NEVER thinking for themselves...

    excon
  • Aug 26, 2007, 07:44 AM
    jillianleab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Jilleanleab:

    If you don't believe in sin - was that tongue in cheek? - do you believe in right and wrong?

    Are not rules and laws made to define right and wrong? whether in a secular or religious context? And if you break the law, in general, there is judgement and punishment.

    Now, I know that no one likes to be told what to do, or be told what is right and wrong.
    And no one, in general, likes to be punished. This seems to be what keeps people away from "religion." That and hypocrisy - but I digress.

    But rules and laws are there, whether from God and or man. No escaping that.
    Isn't that what civilization is based on?

    Now imagine this, someone realizes they have done wrong, they also acknowledge that they have to pay the consequences , and fear that.
    Imagine how they would feel if someone else took their punishment [ fines, jail, a caning, the electric chair, whatever.] and they were set free.

    Grace and Peace

    Of course I believe in right vs wrong. Haven't we been through this before, that just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they have no morals? "Sin" and "right and wrong" and two different things. It's wrong to beat children, it's right to donate to charities. But "sin" on the other hand tells us various things are wrong which I don't believe are wrong. I don't think premarital sex is wrong, I don't think birth control is wrong, I don't think lying (in some instances) is wrong. So what you might consider a "sin" I do not. That's why I say I don't believe in sin.

    Additionally, have you even read the entire thread to understand why the atheists here have come to their beliefs? It's not about not wanting to follow the rules, being punished, fear of anything. So to say, "That seems to be what keeps people away from "religion"" is just, well, wrong.
  • Aug 26, 2007, 09:43 AM
    Synnen
    I would just like to point out that I am a witch.

    The followers of the religion of Wicca are referred to as witches.

    I've just proved to you that witches exist. I know you didn't demand it... but hey! There's something you didn't previously believe proved to you!

    I, too, do not believe in sin. There is a difference between right and wrong and sin, as Jillian has said. I also don't believe that some guy who lived 2000 years ago dying for me is going to save me from any consequences of my own when I die. Simply believing in something isn't going to save my butt!

    As far as reward or punishment after death... well, your god says "heaven or hell", my goddess says "your reward or punishment for your actions in this life will be what you experience in your NEXT life"

    What most of the Christians aruing here aren't quite getting is that regardless what you say, you're not going to change the minds of the atheists (or those of another religion) here. Most of us non-Christians did a LOT of research and spent a LOT of time thinking before turning our backs on Christianity - and for myself, the absolute hypocrisy of Christianity was the main reason I couldn't be a Christian. I'm sure that the others posting here have their own reasons for not choosing Christianity, reasons that because you have blind faith, you will never understand.

    My favorite joke starts with a man being approached by a Christian and asked "Have you found Jesus?" All hell breaks loose when he, sick of this question, asks in return, "Have you people lost Him again?" and then goes into a tirade about how if you can't find your own god, how do you expect others to find him? He gives suggestions about where to find Him, including a synagogue (Jesus was Jewish, you know).

    Christians, for some reason, don't find that joke very funny. Those of us who are constantly getting the pressure to convert to Christianity (because--funny thing here--Christians just can't understand how anyone could be happy without their god) find that joke hilarious.

    I don't see a lot of questions from Christians trying to understand atheism in this thread. What I do see are a lot of Christians trying to convert others, and a lot of Christians disparaging something they don't understand, whether they mean to be or not. Not everyone is happy with blind faith. I was raised Christian, but never found the satisfaction and happiness with it that I find with Wicca--I'm assuming that the same is true for most atheists. That they are happier without a God in their life than they were with one.

    Live and let live, I say.
  • Aug 26, 2007, 04:01 PM
    cal823
    Karma, maybe you need to see the hypocrisy in your statement of atheists minding their own business.
    If you like, I can link several threads where you, and other atheists, have gone in and categorically stated things like "there is no god" or other things that go against the religious nature of the thread.
    Such as the "will i go to hell?" thread, where he was asking if homosexuality is a sentence for hell, and you said "we were created by our parents" when you know full well that christians believe that god created us before we were even in the womb.
    Seeing as how he wasn't asking "does hell exist" your atheist viewpoint on the matter was not required, because it was a question about hell, on the assumption that it does exist.
  • Aug 26, 2007, 04:54 PM
    NeedKarma
    I thought my answer was excellent from my viewpoint. It was to say that basically 'there is no hell so don't let that part bother you'. I'm not trying to convert him or anyone else, nor am I slamming all those who have other beliefs. If you read carefully the OP also adds in his original question " Also what if i kind of do not believe in god?" so my viewpoint fits right in thank you very much.

    And yes, we are made by our parents, that's how sexual reproduction works. I'm not sure how many christians follow your view that a child is conceived before a sperm hits an egg.
  • Aug 26, 2007, 07:15 PM
    jillianleab
    If I were impolite, I would point out that this thread specifically asks for the opinion of atheists, so why are there Christians posting here? Of course, I'm not impolite, and I welcome people of all or no faiths to participate in conversations and express their views. Good thing I'm not impolite! :D
  • Aug 26, 2007, 07:40 PM
    retsoksirhc
    I was planning to stay out of this, but I just thought this post was so cute, I wanted to comment.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    If you do not sin, does that mean you think you are perfect? Never lied, or lusted, or gotten angry, always followed your parents, etc...?

    Yes. You will think you're perfect, and that still won't be a sin. Because whoever said that pride was a sin? NOBODY. Sarcasm, by the way.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Consider this, there are three major religions probably accounting for the majority of the world's population [ I don't have the exact figure on hand ] that believe in ONE GOD. At the beginning, all those religions started with people who were not brought up to believe
    in what they believe now.

    I'm not sure where you're getting your figures, but I can think of a few popular religions that have mre than one god. Ancient and modern alike. Hinduism comes to mind. And there are plenty of people who believe in something they aren't brought up to believe. Some of them like to drink kool-aid. SPECIAL kool-aid.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Also notice that on this thread on 'what atheists believe,' God dominates.

    Yep. I see that in a thread where someone asks the opinion of atheists, Christians see the need to argue against the opinions we offer. What I DON'T see in the original post is anyone asking for an explanatino of why Christians believe what they do. Simply, the other way around.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    If atheists common denominator is that they don't believe in God, why do they spend all this time "proving" there is no God and wanting believers to prove their faith?

    Did you ever want to think something was true, but were skeptical? Like maybe it was unbelieveable, and you wanted it to be true, but you had no proof? If someone told me they finally made an interstellar spaceship, I would think it was awesome. Of course, that's an outragous claim. I'd look into it for myself before I decided to believe it. Or, for example, if someone told me that there was this 'God' fellow, and he was omniscient, and could help me find piece of mind and give life more meaning, well, I would probably want to look into that myself before believeing it blindly.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    For example, I don't believe in witches. If you want to believe in them, fine, does not matter to me, because I don't believe they exist. I'm not going to waste my time researching them trying to prove they don't exist or demanding that those who believe in witches show me proof.

    Do people tell you regularly that you should believe in witches? If you posted on this site asking why people didn't believe in witches, do you think those who DID believe in witches would come in and post all hell-bent about why witches absolutely positively do exist? I get told that I need to go to church, that I have to find god, and get invitations to church regularly. I don't want to go, and wish those people leave me alone. They know I don't want to go, yet they feel the need to "spread the good word".
  • Aug 26, 2007, 07:44 PM
    nicespringgirl
    Quote:

    Some of them like to drink kool-aid. SPECIAL kool-aid.
    LOL, that's EXCON check this outhttps://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/excon.html :D
  • Aug 26, 2007, 07:52 PM
    Wangdoodle
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    And yes, we are made by our parents, that's how sexual reproduction works. I'm not sure how many christians follow your view that a child is conceived before a sperm hits an egg.

    I think Cal is referring to Jeremiah 1:4-5

    4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:5 “ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
  • Aug 26, 2007, 09:52 PM
    cal823
    That's the one! Thanks for reminding me where in the bible it is :)
    Karma, you have a valid point :)
    And also, the atheists here are right about the whole "this question is about the views of atheists"
    And seeing as how I am not an atheist, and not some kind of expert on what atheists think, I admit I do not really belong in this thread :)
  • Aug 27, 2007, 12:58 AM
    firmbeliever
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    I thought my answer was excellent from my viewpoint. It was to say that basically 'there is no hell so don't let that part bother you'. I'm not trying to convert him or anyone else, nor am I slamming all those who have other beliefs. If you read carefully the OP also adds in his original question " Also what if i kind of do not believe in god?" so my viewpoint fits right in thank you very much.

    And yes, we are made by our parents, that's how sexual reproduction works. I'm not sure how many christians follow your view that a child is conceived before a sperm hits an egg.

    NK!
    I am a she, a female and you keep referring to me as a he... :D

    And " Also what if i kind of do not believe in god?" where did you get that idea from...
    I do not remember saying such a thing, but if I did that is very out of character for me, so if you could let me know the exact thread.

    Thanks
  • Aug 27, 2007, 01:58 AM
    cal823
    He was replying to my post I think firm, the one where I made reference to the "im gay, will i go to hell?" discussion.
    Didn't know you was a chick firm! Lolz
  • Aug 27, 2007, 02:35 AM
    firmbeliever
    Surprise, Surprise ;)
  • Aug 27, 2007, 04:20 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by firmbeliever
    NK!
    I am a she, a female and you keep referring to me as a he....:D

    I'm backing you on this one, firm. I've noticed that you've pointed this out more than twice, and he still seems to firmly believe (get it?) that you are a HE. NK! Pay attention here! It matters!

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