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So therefore all people are perfect, especially Christians! Hmmm, that explains a lot of things...Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
And if people are perfect, but slow to learn, then why is it not feasible that God himself invented reincarnation as a means of teaching those slow-to-learn-but-perfect creatures? It is rather ingenious if you think about it!
The Bible was "penned" by man but God-breathed AND had many witnesses. Can't claim that about the "holy books" of any of the other "religions" if you read the author's claims.
Have you ever had to speak on the spot and knew the Holy Spirit gave you the words at the most important time?
I thank God I do not doubt my faith. The Bible was inspired by God. AMEN.
PPS- Val- You started with a statement of prejudice. That is entirely your own(about Christians)
No one said MAN was perfect. Only God and Jesus. Man was blameless until Adam sinned. This is the reason man NEEDS God. B/c he is not perfect.
Hey man, can you send your toothfairy over to my house -- I put a whole set of dentures under my pillow! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Its not very 'Christian' of you to negatively point out these other religions and faiths.
That is my point since many believe for whatever reason but the bottom line is it is only in the eye of the beholder and there is no proof one way or another that reincarnation even exists or that the reason given here throughout this thread is its conflict with the bible.
There are some here that have used the bible to refute reincarnation as a belief, and I refute the bible as an imperfect product of mans attempt to explain his beliefs. No side has evidence for or against just conjecture and BELIEF!!Quote:
Why is there talk about the bible when the OP was asking what we thought about reincarnation
I don't care if someone devoutly reads The Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. and slams it in my face when they want to prove something, because deep inside MYSELF I know what is MY belief, MY opinion, MY way. Not saying that I haven't had a good influence; being surrounded by different religions as a kid I learned to accept diversity, and not persecute it because it didn't fit 'me'.
Though I can not speak authoritatively for reincarnation, as this is not a part of my belief system, the doctrine of rebirth states that we are in fact already perfect. It is only through our ignorance of our true nature that we continue to perpetuate in limited existences characterized by suffering. Whereas Christianity is said to regard "knowledge" as the original sin, Buddhism could be said to believe that it is "ignorance" that is the original sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
And yet, at the same time, looking only to be whisked of into the Heavens, do you not greatly disregard the Earth, also one of God's greatest creations. Buddhism also teaches that Heaven and hell are not separate, only reverse sides of the same valuable coin. Samsara or Nirvana, it's all dependent on your view.
Thank you for that clarification, Thomas. More and more, I think I am becoming a buddhist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas1970
You have no proof this is true, that just what you believe, which is coolQuote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Well thanks Tal, at least it's cool!
I thought the new ignorance was radical Islam! Seems others like to use the word ignorance for EFFECT. It shines the light on them themselves. I don't know what college y'all went to, but if you did go, you wouldn't hang your hat on such a negative word. Oh I forgot -you got a degree in what?
I don't know whether you are a believer or not Sentra- so by playing safe & generic faithwise, does that give you the go ahead to say I speak negatively of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, any other false religions or cults I believe are out there? Yes, I can defend Christianity. But I too have to live in a world with diversity. I choose to interact (mostly in person) with all different faiths & cultures, and base that interaction on the persons themselves and how they treat me- and expect vice-versa, and what is the purpose or objective for that interaction? That is what is important. It bears very little on my own private backround or theirs(as far as what we believe our faith to be) Does that make any sense?
I think that's what Sentra may be alluding to - the fact that you believe that all other religion but yours is a false religion. Is it possible that the religion you practice is a false religion? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
That was a joke about the perfect Christians, Pumpkin, one that had something of a point but its okay if it was missed or overlooked. I don't have that prejudice, fortunately. And I think we would all agree that people need enlightening, whether that be by a God or a faith or even a few rounds of reincarnation. Its so very much a choice for each of us to embrace that which we see fitting. And can be done without the putting down of any others too.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
PPS- Pumpkin: You can't claim your faith is the one true faith and all others are false or cults without having spoken "negatively". That is what Sentra is speaking of, I do believe. Negative = false. What you can do instead to avoid the negative is claim your faith as true according to you... and leave it at that. Then there is no negative!
Its like this... I hold my belief dear but I neither expect any of you to convert to it nor do I wish for, anticipate or make claims about any punishment for you if you don't. That Christianity does and is so vigorously defended by some here along this line of "convert or be punished" is what is getting everyone's dander up. You can hardly be surprised when some respond with... "who me? how dare you!"... since you wouldn't like that whole "convert or be punished" thing handed out to you by some other faith, would you? In fact, no one is going to like that or ever be converted like that either. It used to be that religions could scare people into believing in them but those days are long gone. People are much more sophisticated now due to how much access to information they have.
To add that not only is the information there but the ways of ancient man leading the masses is long gone as more people just think for themselves as men not sheep.(and women too! )Quote:
People are much more sophisticated now due to how much access to information they have.
You got that right Tal. Lots less "corn-pone opinions" these days and I bet ol' Twain himself would be happy about that!! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
PS - that article is worth reading to the end, it has a killer punchline, LOL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
Its my opinion, take it or leave it. And yes, I AM a believer. In what? Goodness. Faith. TOLERANCE. Honor. Discipline. Forgiveness. Many things. I DON'T believe in 'throwing stones', pointing out others because they are 'different' in what they believe, stuffing what I believe down someone else's throat, trying to drag someone into my own belief system, etc. I could go on and on. Playing it safe and generic, and by that you think I light incense when I am around a buddhist or bury apples when I pass a few wiccans in prayer.
'Playing it safe and generic' would only apply to someone who tosses a book of their faith around and uses it to their advantage when topics exactly like this one show up, in fear of using the brain they were given. To me? THAT doesn't make sense, but I understand why.
You could not be further off the mark in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
In evidence you only have to look at the masses of the conservative right who hang on every word Bush says and follow him even unto destruction.
Humanity will always look to leaders, despite information that would suggest that they should abandon certain ones, but that is the nature of mnakind and the appeal of leaders and leadership.
For another example, take the Jonesboro scenario... Adfolphus Hitler... Georgius Bush... Benito Mussonlini... Benjamino Hinn... Jacobus Bakker... did I mention Georgius Bush?
M:)
The 'new ignorance' is militant anything, and that includes right wing neo-conservatives whose knee hjerk reactions to everything Ayatollah Bush says are responsible for injecting more fear into the political processes of the world in the name of religion. A Saddam Hussein and a George Bush each use the same methods of 'crowd' control. The only differenc being that one does not pretend to be a religious man and th eother claims to be guided by the voice of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
The only degree I see is a degree of heat.
M:)RGANITE
.
Anyone who gives their opinion on something leaves whatever is said open for analyzation, criticism, etc. Just doing my part;) Hehe.
Well there are still a lot of sheep and so there will always be a leader for them. The wheels turn slowly, but they still are turning.Quote:
You could not be further off the mark in this.
In evidence you only have to look at the masses of the conservative right who hang on every word Bush says and follow him even unto destruction.
Humanity will always look to leaders, despite information that would suggest that they should abandon certain ones, but that is the nature of mnakind and the appeal of leaders and leadership.
For another example, take the Jonesboro scenario... Adfolphus Hitler... Georgius Bush... Benito Mussonlini... Benjamino Hinn... Jacobus Bakker... did I mention Georgius Bush?
Isn't it interesting that aggressive proponents of Christianity can so easily disregard one of the central teachings of its founder--the golden rule? I have even heard them claim that they are following it when they browbeat others, claiming that if they were steeped in ignorance, they would want to be forcibly enlightened. That kind of foolish logic is why I prefer the inverse formulation of the golden rule: "Don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you".Quote:
Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow
This must be the longest thread ever
Visit the lounge if you want to see longest.Quote:
This must be the longest thread ever
I believe that all living creatures will live different lives and die different deaths, The reason for this I believe is we would not understand the suffering who/what went through before they died or the joys etc. I also believe that we remember all the knowledge of our past lives when we finally reach heaven, which heaven then would be the perfect place with the who and what's truly understanding exactly what the who and what's have gone through by having similar lives.SQuote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
! We all must die once, Is the biblical quotation most frequently used to try and undermine the re-incarnation belief but once this quotation is interpreted in a spiritual way rather than a material way it becomes self explanatory because the truth is, since the crucifixion or more importantly since the resurrection, whosoever accepts Christ as Saviour is released from the pangs of death, liberated, no longer the slave of their past sins or (karma) no longer having to return to this earth to live and die once more. Should we not accept Christ as our Saviour (remember this is a free choice) then we remain entrapped in the ever ending vicious circle of re-incarnation through the signs of the Zodiac, or as Paul said ! You remain slaves of the ruling spirits of the universe as we have been for century after century.
Do you know anyone that has not accepted Christ and is currently caught in this vicious reincarnation circle?Quote:
Originally Posted by unwaitheto
Unwaitheto seems to accept some things from the Bible, but I call your attention to the following:
Heb 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(KJV)
According to this, you only have one chance to get it right.
This statement only proves that you have made no serious effort to study the Bible. It is filled with prophecies that have been fulfilled to the letter, especially those concerning Messiah. The probability that all of the details of His birth, life, ministry, arrest, and crucifixion could happen by chance are so remote as to be an utter impossibility. Also, the very unity of the book itself, having been written by so many different people over such a lengthyt period is further proof of its authenticity.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
When I meet my maker I'll put in a good word for you and Unwaitheto, in case you come back as bugs. Is that cool enough for Ya!!
This is exactly what the establichment want you to believe, that is wwhatgives them the power over their flockQuote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Support for reincarnationQuote:
Originally Posted by pussycatman
1Sam ch2 v 6 The LORD brings death and gives life; (L)
He sends [some] to Sheol, and He raises [others] up. (M)
7 The LORD brings poverty and gives wealth; (N)
He humbles and He exalts. (O)
8 He raises the poor from the dust (P)
And lifts the needy from the garbage pile. (Q)
He seats them with noblemen (R)
And gives them a throne of honor. [a]
For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; (S)
He has set the world on them. (
The Bible is actually a whole library of books. However, you are correct when you say it is not perfect, but remember that it does not claim to be perfect. Biblical inerrantists are in the same league as flat-earthers.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
M:)
Some of the Bible is the truth, but the erroneous parts are not the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassie
M:)
And my wife's first husband!Quote:
Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
M:)
JK
See Unwaitheto's post:
I did not comment on the passage from Heb. 9:27 as appears in the post, I only referenced it.
It is a real stretch to assign reincarnation ideas to the passages quoted from 1 Sam 2:6.
Look at the original question again. Jesushelper asks 3 things. One, do you believe in reincarnation? Two, do you believe in the possibilities that reincarnation exists? Three, was it taught in the earlier Christian churches?
Questions one and two may be answered any way you please, because it calls for opinion, and we all possess that!
Question three is a different matter. Some of you out there object to scripture quotations, but consider this; the early church believed what the Apostles taught. In order to determine what they taught, we have only one source, and that is the Bible. The New Testament was written mostly by the original Apostles, and entirely by those of that first generation of believers. So, to answer the third question, you are forced to go to the Bible whether you want to or not.
galveston disagrees: Why not point it out? If its wrong, its wrong!
Who is to say it is, or isn't? We all have our opinions, and they reside in places other than this thread.
You perspective from a Christian and biblical point of view is a travesty of Christian teaching that owes more to paganism than to Christian belief and teachings. While you are free to disagree with Christian and biblical teaching on any point, you must not mangle what is taught and believed into something that is not taugtht, was never taught, and has never been believed b y Christians who base their beliefs on the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by unwaitheto
M:)RGANITE
.
And how does one determine what of the Bible is erroneous and what is not? Listen to the Church? The very people who have stained the pages of the Bible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
This is quite untrue and is a belief that is taught and believed by many... and is completely based on the Bible. What you call travesty is nothing but a different interpritation of your version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
How is this belief NOT based on the Bible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas1970
There have been several attempts to show that early Christians believed in reincarnation, and one has even suggested that reincarnation is supported by some writings found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The truth is that reincarnation has not been taught nor believed by Christians who have adhered to the central tenets of Christianity, and the efforts some have made to make it appear as if they did are flawed because they are based on an imperfect understanding of the Christian “journey of the soul” and continuous cycles of rebirth that are the proper meaning of reincarnation.
Some Christian language could lead the unwary astray, but when it is explained as it is and always has been understood by Christians then the supposed similarities between reincarnation and Christian teachings vanish like morning mists at noon.
That some thought John the Baptists to be Elijah returned from the dead should not be taken to signify that Christians believed in reincarnation, nor that Jews (who were the ones making the speculative determination as to who John the Baptist might be) believed in reincarnation. While it might be true that individual Christians and Jews might have had personal belief in rebirth in another body as another identity, that has never been part of the normative teaching of either faith.
The notable case of Arthur Flowerdew is a prime example of one who, we may suppose, was a Christian who ‘remembered’ a former life. This has supplied ammunition to some who wish to make a connection between Christianity and reincarnation, but it is an unreliable test, and is no more a reliable indice of what Christianity has believed than taking the case of a Christian who murders his wife and children and on the strength of his acts calling murder a principle of Christianity.
Other biblical passages have been quoted in support of a belief in reincarnation, but when their context is known, the erroneously perceived ‘connection’ goes away.
The Bible does hint many times at pre-existence, but not at mortal existence, rather a pre-mortal existence from which the spirit or soul comes to earth for a period and at death leaves the body to return to God and to await the resurrection, at which time the dead body is revivified by receiving again its spirit but in a changed and permanent condition. Thus, biblical understanding is of a time line continuum that is not circular, and in which the personality of the individual is neither subsumed nor destroyed, and immortal spirits are nor recycled through several incarnation, but are on an eternal journey that passes through mortality once on its way to becoming a resurrected immortal.
Jesus’ statement that to see and enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again has no connection with reincarnation whatever the semantics sound like. Balingenesis in this context is to change the self and become what Paul called ‘ a new creature.’ This is not achieved through rebirths but by improving the self and conforming one’s life to the pattern and standard determined by God and Jesus, and by emulating them through obedience to their teachings and commandments.
Some believe that some Gnostics, Valentinians, Ophites and Ebionites, etc. included reimbodiment among their teachings. Yet others believe that the Church Fathers, including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen taught reincarnation or one or another aspect of reimbodiment. One can only accept that by misunderstanding what they wrote and what they believed. Their works are available to disabuse the careful reader of any such idea.
Others have misunderstood what Synesius wrote in a prayer: "Father, grant that my soul may merge into the light, and be no more thrust back into the illusion of earth." His reference, as attested by his other works along similar lines, is to self-improvement towards what Aquinas called the “Imitation of Christ.” It has no connection with reincarnation.
Origen's teaching of the pre-existence (not reincarnation) of man’s immortal spirit has persisted although some of its original parameters have been changed, notably the starting point of its existence, and modern Christianity is unable to agree when the life of the spirit of man begins.
Henry More’s essay The Immortality of the Soul has been charged with teaching reincarnation, when it does no such thing.
I would sing the Prae-existency
Of humane souls, and live once o'er again
By recollection and quick memory
All that is past since first we all began.
But all too shallow be my wits to scan
So deep a point and mind too dull to clear
So dark a matter,
Tell what we mortalls are, tell what of old we were.
A spark or ray of the Divinity
Clouded in earthly fogs, yclad in clay,
A precious drop sunk from Aeternitie,
Spilt on the ground, or rather slunk away.
More writes: "there was never any philosopher that held the soul spiritual and immortal but he [also] held also that it did pre-exist."
An interesting subject.
MRGANITE
On what grounds do you make this statement? I'd appreciate knowing your sources for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by K_3
M:)
I would just like to mention that Christmas is derived from paganism so is Easter and Sunday is self explanatory from the pagan sun worship. There are many other so called Christian celebrations can be attributed to the Romans and paganism.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
That is why it is important for us to do as Jesus said: Seek and you shall find and Knock and it will be opened to you. The Church is not responsible for our souls, we are.
If you look at it from the quantum physics side: reincarnation IS possible. There are many scientific books and many people have written their experience of it.
If you think of consciousness/soul/beings all there is and all infinite, when u die and reincarnate all you are doing is following a cycle. The cycle of life, of beingness. I don't know or have a way of knowing if you will come back as u are now, but it is your decision to come back if so you wish. It is all about what the higher being decides to do, since you are a part of it and it is a part of you.
all life is about experience and experience is all there is. If you put it in a way that we are part of God; the part of God that is NOT God so God can be God. In other words, if you see things as one thing stretched into 2 sides: God at the top, humans at the bottom. Is still the same thing, just 2 side of it (like a coin).
So reincarnation, for ME, is not u dying and coming back as the same spirit in the same knowledge and identity you have now. It is to return to the infinite Essence and come back as another expression of this.
We are all One.
~Peace & Namaste~
It makes sense to me, given what i read and know about reincarnation
In reference to the Bible, I think that religion and religious people put way too much attention about what the Bible says, not what Jesus said.
If you go back to the essential message, Jesus taught Love.
He showed how he could be Love above all the negativity that was throw against him.
He talked about how the "Kingdom of Heaven is Within."
He said "Be still and know that I'm there"
I think that the teachings have been lost in the discussion of whether is truth or not. I think that in order to something to be true there must be evidence supporting the statement. Most of the things in the bible are very possible not truth (in my opinion) because you can't prove them, but you can always PROVE Jesus' statements by applying them into your life.
Meditate, quiet your mind, be still, and you will find God. God is in every, and you as a son of God, you are God.
Practice Love, practice random acts of kindness, just for the pure pleasure of doing something Lovefull.
Love is not a small line in the emotions spectrum, Love is ALL of the spectrum, the positive and the negative. You cannot know one side without knowing the other. So don't limit your Love to those who "deserve" it, because the more you give, the more you are.
*** On the reincarnation books of the bible: didn't Jesus come back from the dead, wouldn't that be considered reincarnation?
Also, the Judas book has come to light in recent time, although it has been quieted by "they," but that book is filled with wisdom beyond most of what the typical King James bible has to offer. I recommend you search for information on that.
Your last paragraph is really wild! How did you confuse reincarnation with resurrection? Who supposedly wrote the gospel of Judas? He certainly did not. He committed suicide about the same time Jesus was crucified. Baby birds swallow anything dropped into their mouths. Let's be a little smarter than birds.Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Powell8
[quote=8Powell8]
8Powell9
In reference to the Bible, I think that religion and religious people put way too much attention about what the Bible says, not what Jesus said.
Much of what Jesus said is in the Bible, so you cannot pay attention to one without paying attention to the other.
If you go back to the essential message, Jesus taught Love.
Jesus taught love, but also much more. In addition to teaching people to love their neighbours, Jesus taught mankind what it must do to obtain eternal life. While love was part of that, it was not all of it.
He showed how he could be Love above all the negativity that was throw against him.
He talked about how the "Kingdom of Heaven is Within."
Jesus said the kingdom of heaven was at hand – meaning that he was and represented the kingdom. He also said hi kingdom was ‘not of this world.’
He said "Be still and know that I'm there"
It is elohiym who said “Be still, and know that I am God.”
I think that the teachings have been lost in the discussion of whether is truth or not. I think that in order to something to be true there must be evidence supporting the statement. Most of the things in the bible are very possible not truth (in my opinion) because you can't prove them, but you can always PROVE Jesus' statements by applying them into your life.
Almost every other spiritual principle in the Bible can be subjected to the same test.
Meditate, quiet your mind, be still, and you will find God. God is in every, and you as a son of God, you are God.
Job asked: Canst thou by searching find out God? Jesus gave out some advice on ‘finding’ God:
yhvh said: If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Practice Love, practice random acts of kindness, just for the pure pleasure of doing something Lovefull.
Love alone, while it will bless the giver as well as the recipient, does not satisfy the requirements that Jesus taught must be obeyed.
Love is not a small line in the emotions spectrum, Love is ALL of the spectrum, the positive and the negative. You cannot know one side without knowing the other. So don't limit your Love to those who "deserve" it, because the more you give, the more you are.
Love is not the sum of all the emotions. Love knows nothing of hatred, greed, jealousy, envy, covetousness, prejudice, etc, etc, etc. Christian love is caritas, the pure love of Christ and has none of these negative and destructive elements in it.
*** On the reincarnation books of the bible: didn't Jesus come back from the dead, wouldn't that be considered reincarnation?
Most definitely not. There is a qualitative difference between resurrection and reincarnation that cannot be reconciled.
Also, the Judas book has come to light in recent time, although it has been quieted by "they,"
THEY? It is readily available from booksellers – if you mean the spurious pseudeppigraphic Gospel of Judas – so how has anyone “quieted” it?
For example: AMAZON.com - The Gospel of Judas (Hardcover)
by National Geographic Society (Author), Bart D. Ehrman (Commentary), Rodolphe Kasser (Editor), Marvin Meyer (Editor), Gregor Wurst (Editor)
(66 customer reviews)
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From Nat Geographic: wwww.shop.nationalgeographic.com - The Gospel of Judas Book
Published for the first time since it was condemned as heresy by early church leaders, the Gospel of Judas is told from the perspective of Judas Iscariot, history's ultimate traitor. However, the Judas that emerges in this volume is a hero, not a villain. The gospel has been translated from its original Coptic into clear prose and is accompanied by commentary that explains its fascinating history in the context of the early church, offering a whole new way of understanding the message of Jesus Christ.
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but that book is filled with wisdom beyond most of what the typical King James bible has to offer.
Such as?
If you have read it, and you must have to laud it so roundly, why not show where it is superior to the AV in, say, ten principles? I shall read your answer with interest.
Also, what on earth is ‘the typical King James’ Bible? How many versions of the King James Bible are there?
Would I be correct in assuming from the internal evidence of your post that you are unfamiliar with the inside of both the Gospel of Judas Iscariot and with the Bible?
M:)RGANITE
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