LMAO!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
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LMAO!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
We agreed on something:D
I took a bit of liberty with your previous post in citing it as an example of scientism. But here you do seem to reinforce my inference that you think the scientific method is the right tool for every job. So let me ask you straight up: Do you believe (hold dear and love) that the scientific method is adequate to provide a satisfactory (to you, at least) explanation for every phenomenon whatsoever? Do you see any inherent limitation on the kind of phenomena that can be examined and explained by its use? It does seem to require a human being to conceptualize the problem as a theoretical model, operationalize the model to formulate a testable hypothesis, design an experiment to test it, and interpret the resulting observations and measurements to construct a coherent explanation story. Is this (the human mind) a significant limitation? What it really comes down to, I suppose, is whether there is anything whatsoever beyond the reach of the rigorous application of logic, experiment and observation by the rational human intellect. The only limitation you have alluded to so far is the precision of measurement technology. Is that the only one there is, in your view?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
Karma exists, it cannot be determined where it comes from. Somehow what we put out in the world, comes back to us. That energy can't be seen or detected, but it is there, the universe somehow is aware of it, and it is sent back the same way. Scientists cannot disprove it, just as they cannot disprove there is a "God".
The ability to have emotions and feelings can be detected and monitored, we can't be sure where it originates from, or why we have them.
Intuition has saved lives and prevented people from putting themselves in danger that they have never experienced before.
Just from a personal experience with de ja vu, knowing that a bridge and heavily wooded park is up around the corner, on a certain street, when you have never even visited the state in your lifetime, cannot be explained, it just is. That is from when I was a child.
Science was created by man, and therefore has flaws like all of us and it isn't absolute.
Life is a mystery, no one can explain it and that is why we are all given our own perspectives.
Ordinary guy hit the nail on the head. So, is then the precision of measurement technology the only view that holds true for you?
I have put in quotations I have taken from different sites by different authors (links are below) which shows my viewpoint clearly and some reasons I believe in a Creator.
http://saif_w.tripod.com/curious/Mis..._or_chance.htm
“The Macro/Micro patterns
If we look at the universe at large we find that it is composed of vast areas of empty space and also other areas containing shapeless matter in the form of hot gases, dark matter and formed stars. These stars group together to form galaxies. Our galaxy, 'The Milky Way' has within it no less than 100 billion individual stars. Our star, the sun, has nine planets in orbit around it. Most of these planets have a number of moons again in orbit. The basic force that governs the movement of all these bodies is gravity. The moons rotate around their planets, which all rotate around the mother star, which in our case is the sun. Similarly, all these stars revolve round the centre of gravity of the galaxy.
Galaxies group together to form clusters of galaxies and once again individual galaxies revolve round the centre of gravity of the cluster. Clusters group together to form super-clusters, and these obey the same laws. These are the largest units in the universe as we know it today.
However, and if we proceed in the opposite direction, we notice that the similarity is truly remarkable. If we look at the other end of the scale and examine the atom which is the smallest form of substance able to exist in a chemical reaction, we find that it is composed of electrons revolving round a nucleus, in the same way as stars revolve round the centre of gravity of their galaxies.”
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http://saif_w.tripod.com/curious/evo...tml#xperiament
“We know that mirrors and burning lenses date back as far as to the age of written records and Egyptian ophthalmologic recipes go back at least to Papyrus Ebers, copied before 1500 from considerable older sources. We find advanced theories of visual processes and of light in the oldest extent Greek philosophical works. Thus vision, mankind's “most noble sense” has been the subject of every notable philosopher and practitioner of medicine since ancient times. The Atomists had their theories of vision and so did Plato. For the former, and they were by no means unanimous on it, vision required a material effluence to be conveyed from the visible object to the eye.”
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I cannot comprehend the fact that some people believe that the above mentioned macro.micro patterns exist by chance.
Even if science can explain what happens when we look at something, I believe this shows the chemical reaction in our body, but science cannot explain to me how this sense of seeing came about (not just humans, but any animal (as evolutionists believe everything evolved).
I do not believe the universe to be infinite,
It had a beginning and it will have an end.
I respect an atheists view to be his own choice,but I cannot even imagine myself drawing that conclusion as the “science can explain all” theory does not make sense to me.
I read science and understand many things from what scientists are trying to discover by studying the universe and the living things on earth.
I cannot seem to come to the conclusion that the trees around us came about by chance and in that chance they became an organism which works within itself by producing its own food and taking up water from underground etc(I know science helps explain the process of how this works).
I cannot even conclude that for example a giraffe eats from the tops of trees because it elongated its neck to reach the part of the plant others cannot reach OR that the plant grew thorns below a certain level to protect itself from predators. But I do believe and can conclude that a certain tree was made"(by a Creator) in such a way to facilitate certain animals to easily feed on it, in turn have its seeds dispersed to various different spots…etc
I know this argument has been presented before, but I just need those who support the evolution theory or science to know that I do believe in science, but I believe that science helps explain God's creations in order for us to marvel at them.
I have not included any of religious texts which I believe in(and shows that what some scientists are proving today has already been mentioned in the Quran) as it maybe considered inappropriate for this thread.
As I said I state my opinion not to argue but to share my thoughts.
I thank you all for sharing yours and proving to me that what I believed was true all along and reading up all the posts has made me stronger in my faith and belief.:)
So is the bible and the koran and all other religious texts. We all choose our reality I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by shatteredsoul
Although many beleivers suscribe to the notion that the Bible was written through man by God. If untampered with than it would be absolute, we will never really know that.
Sorry, the Bible and other religious texts.
You know I couldn't live with myself if I didn't say...Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
The Bible is indeed true and accurate and inspired by God.
And the best selling book of all time and full of incredible wisdom on every page.
To further that point, you don't need to believe in God to agree with what He is saying. Well He if you do believe and it (the Bible or other religious texts if you don't).
This may be your view, but I believe the original Bible would not have had flaws, and the Quran in its Arabic form has no flaws (not to say that all believe the book to be without flaws), in the transliteration some meaings may have been changed/lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Soooo... the Bible is absolutely right, and everything in it should be followed, since it's the Voice of God speaking through the pages? Am I understanding correctly what you are saying here?
You are to understand that it is from God(if a beleiver) and to do your best to live your life in accordance with what it says. What facinates me is that if you were to actually try hard to follow it you would be amazed at how you feel. I mean if someone followed the Bible to an exact T or even close you all would think he/she was a wonderful person no?
I wonder what gets people so hung up on the notion of MUST follow the rules. The golden rule is do unto others as you would have done to you, I really don't think you need to believe inanything to agree with that.
Yes that is what I believe. Now I feel a set-up in here so let me explain your questions to the best of my ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Hello again, BMI:Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
No!
Don't people discriminate against gays because the Bible says something about men lying down with men?
That's not wonderful at all. Actually, it sucks!!
excon
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Originally Posted by excon
Yes but the bible says more and more clearly that we should not judge lest we be judged and of course the two greatest commandments 1) Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself
Don't need the bible for that. You don't need a book to tell you not to murder or commit adultery. My wife cuts her hair and wears pants, all such women in the world would be called apostates under your idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
Hi ex-con,
That's neither here nor there, whether gays are dicriminated against because of the Bible, some do others don't. I mean I am Italianand my friends discriminate against gays all the time, well that's to saythey do not like it and they makefun of gays, they do not do it because of the BIble I can tell you that.
Its just that women are just so much prettier:)
We find commomn ground! The golden rule indeed transcends all religions. At least you can see the light at the end of the tunnel - you don't need to follow strict rules from a 2000 year old book.Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
HI NK,
You may not need the Bible for that but then again it is 2007. The Bible taught that way back ago, and it has lasted through the ages, what makes sense B.C makes just as much sense as it does in 2007. Thanks for that post, just another marvel of the Bible, it stands through time, whatelse does that?
Science books, medical books and the like all change, this never does.
So why are you still friends with them?Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
What does that mean? Is it to suggest that because I am friends with them I am like them, or that the BIble would tell me to not be friends with them. Actually you may be right, my friends are idiots, but I'm not perfect and neither is anyone.
I could hang around anyone and find fault, just likethey can in me, humans are not perfect, we can't be, otherwise we would beGod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Where did you get that?!
You don't have Pentacosts where you are? They are strict christians like yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
More here for ya: Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You are talking about a religious belief not a biblical based belief... very very different my friend. Find that in the bible?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
So... Incest is okay, then, right? Since Lot lay down with his daughters and all that jazz.
And so is making sure a guy gets killed because you covet his wife, right? Didn't David arrange Uriah's death so he could hook up with Bathsheba?
Let's not even TALK about the great Jezebel---makeup makes you a whore, did you know that?
And bigamy--wouldn't that be okay then too?
The Golden Rule is great. The rest of it (what's left after political moves that removed parts of it so that they could take power away from others and give it to themselves) is pure sophistry.
What I'm trying to say is that there are some really great ideas in the Bible---but there are also some really horrible ones. Women shouldn't be subjugated because the Bible says so. Blacks shouldn't be slaves because Ham or Shem or whoever looked at a drunk Noah and laughed his rear end off. Gays shouldn't be ostricized because of the sins of 2 ancient cities that don't even exist anymore.
The only line in the Bible I truly love, and the line which is MOST ignored is this: Judgement is mine, saith the Lord.
Every single christian denomination claims to follow the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Very well put Synn, this is the one of the many reasons I have a hard time with my faith...Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Something's we can apply, and something's we just cannot in this day and age. My friend, I am glad you know how to use these words and I take value in them.
CLAIMS TO FOLLOW THE BIBLE... CLAIMS is the word we need to look at... doesn't mean they do. Aww crap, I keep agreeing with you, damn it!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I'm not sure who you would include in the "some people" category, but if you include astrophysicists and elementary particle physicists, I think it's a misrepresentation of current scientific thought to say that they think the macro and micro patterns of matter and energy in the observable universe arose "by chance". My understanding, as a literate but "casually informed" layman, is that they think these patterns arose through the action of a few fundamental forces acting on several forms and types of matter over a period of about 13.5 billion years since the Big Bang, i.e. the Beginning. This is quite different than saying that the current state of the cosmos came to be what it is "by chance"--quite the opposite, in fact. As to why there was a big bang at all, or what came before it, science is simply silent. Again, silence is not the same as saying that it happened "by chance". It happened, we don't know why, but given that it did, we can construct a credible story about how it has unfolded since then. If you want to attach the name "God" to the cause of the Big Bang, the supplier of the energy it released, the author of the laws of light and time, and gravity and subatomic forces, that's fine with me, and I would imagine most scientists, because they recognize that these matters are beyond the reach or the interest of science. To a scientist, figuring out how the universe works is so interesting that they hardly have the time to wonder why it exists at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
As I said earlier, a "good explanation" is in the ear of the hearer. I think a lot of people dislike scientific explanations because they've really only been exposed to caricatures of them, not the thing itself. The details of scientific knowledge (physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics) are quite time consuming and laborious to learn, so not everybody cares enough to learn enough to be able to follow the explanation all the way through. Rather than go to all that work, it's often easier to just say "God did it" and go on with the business of living.Quote:
Even if science can explain what happens when we look at something, I believe this shows the chemical reaction in our body, but science cannot explain to me how this sense of seeing came about (not just humans, but any animal (as evolutionists believe everything evolved).
For myself, I'm quite content to have no explanation at all for any number of things. I'd rather do without one than to cling to and defend one that seems farfetched to me, whether scientific or religious in origin.
This is consistent with scientific thought about the beginning, but I don't think there's as much consensus about the end.Quote:
I do not believe the universe to be infinite,
It had a beginning and it will have an end.
I don't think that even all scientists believe that science can explain all, if by "all" you mean to include questions of "why things exist" as well as "how things work".Quote:
I respect an atheists view to be his own choice,but I cannot even imagine myself drawing that conclusion as the “science can explain all” theory does not make sense to me.
So you seem to be saying that you like the scientific explanations of how trees or giraffes work, at this point in time, but you don't like the scientific explanations of how trees and giraffes came to exist at all. Well, I do agree that "scientific" explanations about how the distant past may have given rise to (i.e. caused) the present are harder to follow, harder to test, and harder to accept than those that provide explanations for what we can observe and measure in the present. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong, but it ought to make people who accept them a bit more tolerant of those who don't, at least not yet.Quote:
I read science and understand many things from what scientists are trying to discover by studying the universe and the living things on earth.
I cannot seem to come to the conclusion that the trees around us came about by chance and in that chance they became an organism which works within itself by producing its own food and taking up water from underground etc(I know science helps explain the process of how this works).
I cannot even conclude that for example a giraffe eats from the tops of trees because it elongated its neck to reach the part of the plant others cannot reach OR that the plant grew thorns below a certain level to protect itself from predators. But I do believe and can conclude that a certain tree was made"(by a Creator) in such a way to facilitate certain animals to easily feed on it, in turn have its seeds dispersed to various different spots…etc
Hi Ordinaryguy,
Thanks for your input on my post.
I accept science and scientists in their quest to find the how's of things work have provided for us who believe in a Higher power to be more appreciative of the intricate processes going on within our bodies and beyond.
I agree that the earth took a long time to form and that humans came many years later, before that the earth must have seen strange creatures and plants which in turn in their deaths enriched the earth with many materials which today we see as minerals and salts.
I agree that the earth must have seen asteroids crashing to earth and this would have brought about a change in the earths surface.
I also believe that ancient civilisations have come and gone and I believe some of them were more advanced in their knowledge than the present generation in the sense that they did not have the tools we have today to facilitate their studies,but still they advanced in many areas of life.Yet we only see their remenants in archeological sites.This makes me believe that each generation has their appointed time and whether we believe or not everything that has a beginning must have a end.
I also believe when scientists say that certain animal have become extinct down the ages and new species have been found.I can't say whether I totally agree with evolution of some animals, but as a whole I cannot believe in what scientists say that human beings came from apes or apelike creatures.
I do have a theory that the apelike creatures with human features that have been found could be the people Quran mentions as those who were transformed into monkeys and swine for their disbelief when truth had been revealed to them.
After reading both sides of the argument on atheism or religion I still hold firm to my beliefs in believing in a Higher Almighty Lord of all things that exists in the Universe and beyond.:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
First, do not infer I am of a certain "religious" belief if you do not know me and second have you found that in the Bible yet?:)
"Not wear that which pertaineth to a man" (Deuteronomy 22:5) and "adorn [yourself] in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety" (1 Timothy 2:8-10). Men and women alike are discouraged from wearing jewelry, scripturally "gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Timothy 2:8-10).
More here: United Pentecostal church
Incest is okay, then, right? NoQuote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
And bigamy--wouldn't that be okay then too? No
To understand the Bible you have to 1) take the verses and stories in context of the times and traditions 2) realize that all of your references are from the Old Testament and are very legalistic and are correct that don't apply 3) when Jesus came and died for our sins; His death literally ripped the curtain of the Old Covenant and created a New Covenant that is the New Testament 4) by understanding the Bible thoroughly one would understand that we are no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament because of Christ's death as the ultimate sacrifice for all people
There are mountains and mountains of laws and commandments in the Old Testament but the New Testament clearly states: Matthew 22
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law(emphasis added), tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."(emphasis added)
Mountain Man, we all take the bible in our own way, and understand it in our own way. You will never be able to tell me how to take what it says, because frankly, unless you are the man or woman writing that sentence, then you just don't know. BUT you can assume...
You see you can quote the Bilble and look at these words and say the Bible is telling you that you are forbidden to do this and forbidden to do that, when in reality you are not forbidden to do them. I think many read the words as they appear without giving them proper consideration or meditating upon the actual meaning of them.
The Bible, in most ways, tells you how to live a happy life, one that will bring you great happiness. Parts of the Bible mention that if you gave everything you own away you would build your treasure in heaven and be quite content with what you have. Think about it deeper, the fact thatyou wear no jewellery means you are not concerned with appearance, the fact you have no money means you can be content with what you do have and not get caught up with greed and false pride (COnrad Black as an example). The Bible offers you a way of life that in this day and age seems outdated, but it really isn't, I wager that if you did follow the Bible tooth by tooth than you would not sin as much, not be concerned about trivial things and so on.
Society has made people the way they are because people buy into it, teens and youth look to Hollywood for answers, the Bible gives you something different, a different way, a better way in my opinion. As for what is forbidden and such, don't get caught up in that so much, if you are good God will forgive, not strike you down with a bolt of lightening. There is always a deeper meaning.
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Originally Posted by startover22
I wasn't telling you how to take the Bible I was setting up an example from the Bible so you could see the point I was making... If you choose to believe the way I or other Christians do is your choice you can take it or leave it.
Ok, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
NeedKarma: I can't say it better than that! Thanks BMIQuote:
Originally Posted by BMI
I know! I especially loved this part:Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
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Originally Posted by BMI
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