31 pumpkin,

You say the numbers do not add up. That is fine you have your belief and others have theirs. You do seem to get very defensive when somebody does not agree with you. There is no need get all riled up. There are many many mysteries of God. None of us know the whole picture. Not even the bible gives us the whole picture. As far as reincarnations and memory of past lives. All of us are connected, all of us are a creation from God. So the memeries of past lives could be memeries of somebody else that is being picked up by a sensitive.

Joe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

Does that mean we should discount it ?

---

??

I didn't say anything about discounting it.

I guess I was foolish to try to give an answer to a question in a thread that has become all but answers to the original question.

I did not, though make myself clear, so will clarify:

Original questions:
What do you think about reincarnation? Do you believe in the possibilities that reincarnation exists and was taught in the earlier christian churches?

My answers:

I don't believe in reincarnation as most define it today.

It was NOT taught in the early christian churches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rickj

????????

I didn't say anything about discounting it.

I guess I was foolish to try to give an answer to a question in a thread that has become all but answers to the original question.

I did not, though make myself clear, so will clarify:

Original questions:
What do you think about reincarnation? Do you believe in the possibilities that reincarnation exists and was taught in the earlier christian churches?

My answers:

I don't believe in reincarnation as most define it today.

It was NOT taught in the early christian churches.

---

I don't believe or disbelieve ,the truth is I don't know whether there is an afterlife or resurrection or reincarnation or crossing over. People will always believe what they want, and that's cool but me I don't have a clue!

Jesushelper -

I know you mean it nicely but you said that I said the numbers don't add up.But is that even a belief? Isn't it a fact?
I know I answer strongly because I have strong relationship with the Lord. After my brother was murdered in 1998, during that time of unbearable sorrow, was when the Lord answered me, in a "burning bush" moment (which lasted about 15 endless seconds) He showed me the answer to a question I asked God and only God many years before.
According to that moment, I can honestly say I know what Heaven feels like. But the only thing that is missing for us in the Bible is what Heaven actually looks like.

God knows some of the revelations were for comfort and because of a price.
But some revelations have been for direction and instruction.

So I'm not upset that people disagree with me. Actually I don't get mad, I get sad. I get sad a little actually for God and His plan.
But I have a best friend who's just as faithful, and some relatives left to agree with me if I really need to talk to someone!

"While my guitar gently weeps". Feeling that way too.

Pumpkin 31,

Just because somebody may differ in their beliefs. Even though the numbers may not add up for you but you need to realize that maybe for others the numbers do add up. You need to respect that. As I respect the fact that your showing others how strong your belief is but it is all in the approach and all in the manner that you do this as well. So I tell you that one day I was meditating privately. I was communicating with God. I was praying to God. I was asking a question about reincarnation. I did get my answer. Yes, reincarnation exists. Only in certain circumstances. So I believe that I was communicating with God. I know I was. Are you telling me that I am wrong and that I do not have as much faith as you because I have differing beliefs then you. That is where people get into trouble when they claim they have higher beliefs, or are better believers or have more faith in God and Jesus because they believe there beliefs are right and others are wrong. We have different paths to follow, different roads to travel, and different cultures , etc.. . I do know for a fact that Gods greatest commandment is for us to Love one another. That is what God is about is Love. Not about who is better, who is not. So love for God and each other is most important everything else comes in second. I am not making that up, I truly communicate with God and we all do and we all have communication with him. Everybody does it differently, people vary in their beliefs but you can not write and tell anybody that somebody else's belief is wrong. By doing that you have already turned that person away from God. The only Greatest Judge in this whole creation is God. Let God decide who's soul is pure and who's is not.

Thank you for your reply and this is what I think and feel.

Joe

O.K. -

First. Don't ever tell me who's religion I'm going to respect or not! I do not have to respect another religion. I only have to accept that there are different beliefs. Period. Joe.

You sure are practicing that love. Ha! More like ego.

Never you minda. It doesn't matter. I don't believe you heard God right about the "Yes" for reincarnation. B/c he never says anything that isn't in line with His word. So sorry. That would be a contradiction to His word.

And yes. There is right and wrong, and God told us what it is in His word.

Your just getting nasty now Pumpkin 31, your true colours are showing and it is not from God.

Off topic Joe, but well said, We should be able to disagree with anothers beliefs but the personel trash talk is unnecessary and takes away from the whole thread. But maybe it's a good thing when people show their true colors, so we can know where they come from no matter what they profess to be. Is intolerence a sin. It should be.

Intolerance should be considered a sin. It has caused so much hatred, fighting, wars, uprisings and murders. God does not teach intolerance. God is about love and peace. Intolerance is man made, intolerance is taught by people and it is a shame that people do not see how intolerance effects everybody. Whether it is in another country, towards another religion, towards another belief, towards lifestyle. It effects the belief other people have. When people have intolerance , they tell others their belief is right and somebody else is wrong. It pushes people away from God. Gods word warns that he will deal with people who push others away from him. I wish some people would actually get that LOVE IS THE GREATEST GIFT. That peace was meant to be. As long as we have intolerance from others that peace and love will not happen. That makes me sad. Truly makes me sad and emotional that people do not know how to respect and love each other. This may be off topic, but to be honest since I started the thread, I think I am able to go off topic a bit? Or maybe I will just start another thread. (; All smiles.

Joe

I deny the accusation about being nasty. Are you sure you're a Brother? B/c Christians are supposed to stand in agreement in the Faith. Perhaps it's just lack of maturity in the faith that you have, but it wears on other Christians' patience when one does not defend the Lord's Truth.


To Taliniman - I suggest you open your Bible. The Lord will repay the intolerable ones. You have stopped learning it seems because you are too proud. You want to argue with me because you can't do it enough at home. So, I try to teach an unbeliever, such as yourself something about the Lord, but you are unwilling & give every excuse and accusation instead.


Let's draw a truce. I'm satisfied that the Lord is in control and will reveal His will to whomever He chooses. And in the end, all will see His will. :rolleyes:

Ok, so what is His Will as it has been revealed to you?

Quote:

---

I deny the accusation about being nasty. Are you sure you're a Brother? B/c Christians are supposed to stand in agreement in the Faith. Perhaps it's just lack of maturity in the faith that you have, but it wears on other Christians' patience when one does not defend the Lord's Truth.

---

This was nasty and rude, showing your lack of maturity and lack of knowing the truth.

Quote:

---

To Taliniman - I suggest you open your Bible. The Lord will repay the intolerable ones. You have stopped learning it seems because you are too proud. You want to argue with me because you can't do it enough at home. So, I try to teach an unbeliever, such as yourself something about the Lord, but you are unwilling & give every excuse and accusation instead

---

My home life is great thank you and none of your business. You cannot teach what you don't know so forget that. Maybe someday after you've matured, you will have something positive to add but for now, I DON'T THINK SO!

Quote:

---

Let's draw a truce. I'm satisfied that the Lord is in control and will reveal His will to whomever He chooses. And in the end, all will see His will. :rolleyes:

---

I have a better idea, Grow up and mind your manners.
I apologise to Jesushelper for hi-jacking this thread, and to all the others who came to discuss the subject but only found this drivel.

Back to the original question, i.e.. Was reincarnation taught in the earlier churches.
It has been stated (and I agree) that the Christian Church has never taught reincarnation. It could not have, because it has always relied on the Bible as its authority. Some things Biblical have been mis-understood, but reincarnation is not something that has ever been argued for. For those who do not accept the Bible as accurate, I pose the following:
All religions have their books, BUT, the Bible is the only one that specifically claims to be the revelation of the Creator to His creation. The other books are a record of mans search for truth by his own ability. If we reject the authority of the Bible, then we have thrown away the only "map" available to us. So when asked whether the early Church taught reincarnation, the only possible answer is "no".

Quote:

---

Scriptures from the King James Version of the Bible which hint at Reincarnation. Reincarnation was taught in the Roman Catholic Church until 553 A.D. when it was voted out (3-2) at the Council of Constantinople

---

I googled reincarnation in the bible and found this among many sites on this subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galveston

All religions have their books, BUT, the Bible is the only one that specifically claims to be the revelation of the Creator to His creation.

---

Just curious, but how do you know this, galveston? Have you read and studied the holy scriptures of other religions?

Early christian church did teach reincarnation. That is a fact that there are things that were taught at the beginning of the church and they over the years have changed it. Even books that were decided by the church, which ones were considered to be part of the bible and what should not. Whose to say we are not missing books that should be part of the bible. In the long run in things, the most important part of belief is faith. To have faith in God and everything falls into place.

Joe

I'm seeing evidence to the contrary about Reincarnation being taught in the early Churches. I looked at RickJ link on p.8 of this thread and Morganite's also.

I would like to see at least one article from you, Jesushelper to back up your statement.
From what I have heard from scholars & ministers of Christianity throughout the years regarding "the mysterious missing books of the Bible" is that these books were not included (if at all) because some were redundant (how many miracles of Christ needed to fill more text?) and that some mwere believed to focus on avoidance of evil instead of promoting what Jesus' teachings were; about love.

The problem I have (and plenty of others) with other major religions' sacred text is that the originate from a single person without any interaction and witnesses to verify their revelations.

This I've found with Hinduism and Islam.

One can look (even google) an overview of these religions and see the correlation I'm referring to when I state "man-made religion".

In the Bible, there are witnesses and consistent people to support what God's Spirit inspired those to write down.

Well. I almost was permantly banned from this sight for" disagreeing" or not having respect for others beliefs.(apparently I don't say it nice enough)

Jesushelper - You have a God-given right to believe whatever you choose.
What was overlooked was when you said you believe in reincarnation. Yes faith in Christ is the most important thing. But as a Christian myself I know that worshiping other Gods (which I believe that to be for you) is a sin.

Now if that is disrepectful, I apologize. And maybe there isn't any room for my views on this site.

31 Pumpkin,

How am I worshipping other gods? Just because I believe that reincarnation is a possibility. It is called a discussion and the possilibility in reincarnation and do I believe it exists, the answer is yes. How can you sit there and tell me that I AM SINNING AND I AM WORSHIPPING OTHER gods? Jesus gave us a gift of love. God gave us a commandment to love. All you do here is accuse, spew and much more. You judge me. That is against Gods commandment, yet you state that you have a stronger faith then me. Your what God calls a hyprocrite. Preach about the God of love and spew hate and intolerance.

Joe

I refer to these passages for your perusal:
1) Matthew 11,14 and 17,12-13, concerning the identity of John the Baptist;
2) John 9,2, "Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?";
3) John 3,3, "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again";
4) James 3,6, "the wheel of nature";
5) Galatians 6,7, "A man reaps what he sows".
6) Matthew 26,52, ”all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.
7) Revelation 13,10, ”If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed.”
I've only gone through the first concerning John the Baptist, But If you want to see the entirety of my research simply Google, Reincarnation in the bible and go through it yourself. It is common knowledge that the bible as we know it has been changed and Translated (a lot can be lost in translation) into many languages and it is not far fetched to believe that ancient man put a lot of his own prejudices and beliefs into writing. As Jesus was a Jew and Christianity was founded well after his death I can only assume that the bible was divinely inspired. The fact is I don't know just as I don't know that any other religious book is divinely inspired.

Well I went through some links on "reincarnation and the early churches" and "reincarnation and the Bible"

I learned Christian Gnostics were responsible for the reincarnation belief and were dispelled somewhere around 500 AD for heresy.
Here is a link I was referring to: www.near-death.com/experiences/origen06.html

Also, on the Scripture quotes as a "hint of reincarnation" I found that actually laughable. Everyone of them is referring to what happens to man (due to one's conduct or heart,etc.- in this life.


Somewhere there's suggestion in the readings today that John The Baptist was Elijah "reincarnated". A person has to die 1st in order that his self may be reincarnated in another body. Elijah didn't physically die anyway. He was brought up to Heaven in a whirlwind(2Kings 2,11)
"Finally, the experience of the apostles at the Mount of Transfiguration has to be remembered(Matthew 17,1-8;Mark9,2-8;Luke 9,28-36) when Elijah was identified by the apostles without being confused with John The Baptist"

But those Scriptures on one of the links for "reincarnation and the Bible" - really made me laugh today. But I did learn something also from the research!

What an interesting series of comments! And all from people of the same basic religion. WOW. Brings to mind one of my favorite quotes of all time. "My only regret is that I am not young enough to know everything."

And what is that quote from your bible... "You can tell these Christians by how..." umm, self righteous? Intolerant? Pig headed?. what was it again?

Quote from reincarnation and the bible:

Quote:

---

The doctrines of pre-existence and reincarnation existed as secret teachings of Jesus until they were declared a heresy by the Roman Church in 553 A.D. It was at this time that the Roman Church aggressively destroyed competing teachings and so-called heresies within the Church. Along with the destruction of unorthodox teachings came the destruction of Jews, Gnostics, and ultimately anyone who stood in the way of the Inquisition and Crusades

---

That was a time in history when man was exerting his influence over the people to justify his own greed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

Quote from reincarnation and the bible:
That was a time in history when man was exerting his influence over the people to justify his own greed.

---

And that sad time differs from our own how?

Whether it was taught as true by early Christians or not doesn't appear to have a great deal of relevance for today's world and there is clearly not much agreement on this topic. I wonder, does it make what we experience here and now any different, Christian or otherwise, if they did or didn't teach it?

Hmmm but now that I think about it off the cuff, I could see wishing that reincarnation could be proved as real since then people would be more careful in their actions with a real personal concern of being reincarnated into, say, a frog next time hanging in the balance, wouldn't they? And I am all for a more careful treatment of each other.

At the most basic level, the belief could prevent us humans from destroying our planet. If you have to come back, do you really want to return to a world more polluted, more disease ridden, more overpopulated. On a political level, sure those Nike's are cool, but do you really want to be the man in the sweatshop making them next time? Would we be so quick to oppress or exploit?

Yes, it would make people think.

Wow. Never really thought of it like that before so it does explain why it could be stricken from the books so to speak, and forbidden and against policy.
ByVBNomad

Quote:

---

At the most basic level, the belief could prevent us humans from destroying our planet. If you have to come back, do you really want to return to a world more polluted, more disease ridden, more overpopulated. On a political level, sure those Nike's are cool, but do you really want to be the man in the sweatshop making them next time? Would we be so quick to oppress or exploit?

---

A lot of food for thought.

One couldn't come back as a cockroach because insects don't have spirits. I don't think they even have a soul.


There will be a new Heaven & a new earth when Jesus' returns. That's why I tell myself, if I don't get to see the Holy Land in this life(b/c of the violence) then I'll have to wait for the next.

Coming back as a cockroach would be a fitting reward for some of us humans who have no soul.

Disagree. Now you're playing God. Judgmental. B/c they could say the same for you.

How do you know who has a soul and who doesn't. All creatures great and small were all created by God. They all have an importance for one thing or another. Can anything be alive without the spirit of God?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

One couldn't come back as a cockroach because insects don't have spirits. I don't think they even have a soul.

---

Short of recalling a prior life as a roach, I think this would be extremely diffuclt to speculate upon. Many people still disagree as to whether animals are capable of feeling and expressing emotion, and aren't simply motivated by instinctual needs and drives.
Though not everyone agrees that animals don't have a soul. There are Hindu temples devoted to rats, which are believed to be reincarnated ancestors. Many Hawaiian people believe the same of sharks. In the country of Bhutan, this belief is so strong regarding Black Cranes, killing one entails a mandatory life sentence with no chance of parole.
One thing is for sure though... Should we finally fire off a few of those nuclear warheads, from a purely biological perspective, meek or not, cockroaches do stand the best chance of inheriting the Earth. And please don't argue this one, unless you have lived with them as I have. :D

Hi Orange,
You are absolutely correct in that. Such religions are referred to as "Animistic", and two examples would be the native religions of Tibet and Japan, Bon and Shinto respectively. Here is a good link explaining Animism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animistic

Dogs, cats, horses, etc. have a soul (mind,will & emotions) A cockroach or lower animal couldn't I think, because it doesn't have a brain or heart. Do you agree?

But how could a rat be someone's relative? Where did the person's spirit go?
God gave man a spirit. It's what separates man from other living things.

I wouldn't think God would be limited to a physical structure or it's size or sophistication. If the lesson you needed to learn was in a worm. God could make your soul experience that existence. And 'you' would perceive as a worm. Not as a person trapped in a worm's body. And we can only speculate on the hierarchy of progression, or even if there is one. After many lives in the human form a master may prefer the life of a pampered cat or wild bird.. to be an otter for the pure joy of it. A racoon to have fun with the humans.

I think a real theological question buried in here is do we continue as souls to perceive as human once we are free of the human body. And after living bodiless, or in other forms would we ever willingly choose the human body again. Or would a spirit body be more like God's real 'image'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 31pumpkin

Dogs, cats, horses, etc. have a soul (mind,will & emotions) A cockroach or lower animal couldn't I think, b/c it doesn't have a brain or heart. Do you agree?

But how could a rat be someone's relative? Where did the person's spirit go?
God gave man a spirit. It's what separates man from other living things.

---

Into the rat, according to Hindus. Many Hindu gods, such as Ganesha, are depicted as having animal characteristics, though fully possessed of the intellectual faculties of humans.
Insects do in fact have a heart and brain, though primitive in comparison to ours. Their "blood" is green in general, as it carries no oxygen. Not possessing lungs, they bring oygen into their bodies through other means.
Though the argument could be made, even in insects, that there is an animating force beyond the simple electrical activity exhibited by the brain, as cockroaches have been known to survive up to thirty days without a head.

Now the discussions are becoming very interesting and informative. Whoo hooo. Clapping and smiling.

Joe

The nervous system and circulatory system of an insect is so primitive and simple that it is controlled innately by reflex and instinct. It reacts to it's own internal stimuli and external stimuli.
What I'm saying is an insect is not capable of thought or learning (as a pet)
I believe anything with a nervous system feels pain when it's crushed. But its brain doesn't(the insect) has the capacity to look at the " exterminator" and look like it's saying "please don't kill me!"

So that's why I don't think they have a soul. Insects are just part of ecology. I don't think there's anything "sacred" about them. Just my opinion, of course.

So is it a sliding scale of "soul"? A cockroach does have one but a dog does. How about a well-trained fish you've had for years? Does a chimpanzee have a soul? Does that cold-blooded killer have a soul? It's such a difficult concept to describe much less to have any form of agreement.

The soul consists of the 1) mind 2) will 3) and emotions. I certainly would think that mammals have the capacity to think & learn, have a will, and have feelings more than just instinctual.(heartfelt feelings) Let's forget about the spirit for now.

But the question I'd like to ask for" believers" in reincarnation is: How does the rat that may have a soul cleanse itself for the next incarnation? What would the criteria be for the rat to improve itself in its life, so that it would return something better? Does it have to reach some kind of Nirvana? What would constitute a judgment of a "good rat"?

This is sounding crazy already to me. So I don't know if it's going to get any saner!