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Originally Posted by albear

i disagree i think that we can control how we die, up to a certain point, yes there are more .......horrible ways to die, and a lot of unexpected ones, but if we get to the point where we can feel that our time is soon then we can choose how we end it, carry on down the path of nature or end it by our own means, its the unexpected ones that catch us off guard, but what im getting from you is that you want to be able to kill yourself legally (tell me if im wrog), but really it would be taking a life and thats murder and although many criminals would hope they change it from being against the law am afraid i just dont see that happening.

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I actually don't see it as murder, because if someone is already on their Death bed, they are already dying. So its just a matter of making their passing more peacefully and without pain. I mean a person has the right to die with Dignity, and as their last wish on this earth, why not help them go out painless. The law should have Mercy on the dying, because after all they are dying, weather they are helped to die or not, they are dying anyway, so I don't see it as murder. But then this is just my opinion. Why do you think animals are put to sleep? So they don't suffer, is it murder? I don't think so because they are doing anyway. Not putting them to sleep will not stop them from dying, it will only make the pass peacefully, that is why people put their pets to sleep. I think we as humans should have the same right, to die with dignity, as it is bad enough our illness has kept us in pain, but at least our last wish should be carried out. Anyway like I said its just my opinion, and it would be my wish as well. The State of Oregon has already made it legal,
So why not make it legal in New York too and other states? It's legal in Europe .

Death is my 2nd biggest fear right after flying.

The only thing I have found that helps is putting it out of my mind. When I start to dwell on it (the what ifs and whys) I panic.

It's not as hard as it seems after a while. I simply put it out of my mind... I can talk about it, but don't think about it...

Clear as mud right? LOL

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

I actually don't see it as murder, because if someone is already on their Death bed, they are already dying. So its just a matter of making their passing more peacefully and without pain. I mean a person has the right to die with Dignity, and as their last wish on this earth, why not help them go out painless. The law should have Mercy on the dying, because after all they are dying, weather they are helped to die or not, they are dying anyway, so i don't see it as murder. But then this is just my opinion. Why do you think animals are put to sleep ?? So they don't suffer, is it murder ?? i don't think so because they are doing anyway. Not putting them to sleep will not stop them from dying, it will only make the pass peacefully, that is why people put their pets to sleep. I think we as humans should have the same right, to die with dignity, as it is bad enough our illness has kept us in pain, but at least our last wish should be carried out. Anyway like i said its just my opinion, and it would be my wish as well. The State of Oregon has already made it legal,
so why not make it legal in new york too and other states ?? It's legal in Europe .

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I know you don't see it as murder (and I'm sure many killers would say they were dying anyway) but seriously I'm the same if somebody wishes to be euthanised so that they don't sufferi think that they should be allowed to do so. There are a lot of complicated issues with it though like I said before I believe the US being largely christian isn't helping, but another is that people could kill the elderly like this and it could be very difficult to prove that they killed them on purpose, harold shipman comes to mind, he killed older women by drugs and if it was legal here to euthanise people if they wanted to be all he had to do was get them to sign a form asking for it in a drug induced state and he might have gotten away with it, especially since people tend to leave something for their doctors/people who look after them in their will, things could get very ugly seeing as humans are so greedy, and I think thas another reason why most countries don't allow it. But s you say Oregon seems to have found a way to allow it.

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Originally Posted by ConfusedInAK

Death is my 2nd biggest fear right after flying.

The only thing I have found that helps is putting it out of my mind. When I start to dwell on it (the what ifs and whys) I panic.

It's not as hard as it seems after a while. I simply put it out of my mind.... I can talk about it, but don't think about it....

Clear as mud right? LOL

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My Dear you are lucky that you can put it out of your mind, I never used to think about it before, but its just that I just lost my mother, and now I am all alone in this world. Also my age I am already 47 years old, soon I will be 50 years old in 3 years from now. I will be half a century old, and that time has gone by so fast. When I look back I say where did all of the 47 years go? So that means Death will come for me just as fast, and knowing that I am just terrified, my mothers death only made it more of a reality how Death is apart of us, and each year that people celebrate their birthday they are actually getting a year closer to their own deaths, that is why I don't celebrate growing older, as the times gets closer and closer to do that old " Death Rattle " on the Agony of our death beds.

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Originally Posted by ConfusedInAK

Death is my 2nd biggest fear right after flying.

The only thing I have found that helps is putting it out of my mind. When I start to dwell on it (the what ifs and whys) I panic.

It's not as hard as it seems after a while. I simply put it out of my mind.... I can talk about it, but don't think about it....

Clear as mud right? LOL

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:) lol there's too much to think about in this life, so just hang the sense of it and just get through life one day at a time :)

Hi IS... like you I lost my dear Mum( bless her ) not long ago and my dear Dad is also gone, making me an orphan... hence the user name.

As you say... the watching and remembering is too much to bare.. I won't go into my details they are to painful, I know you'll understand.

Like you I have all the same problems... sleeping, flashbacks and much more.
The shortness of breath you speak of is also there, which is caused by anxiety.

I promise you it does get better and easier to cope with in time, but in the mean time you must visit your GP, you need some help with the sleeping and anxiety. If you can get some decent sleep it will help your mind to heal and deal with day to day living.



You think you are alone but trust me when I say your Mum will not be far from you.Do you talk to her when going about your daily life, I do and it really does help, I also go to her resting place and fill her in on all the gossip etc... I don't really care if people think it's strange I know she hears me. There are several people where I go that do the same.

Perhaps you might find some councilling might help, just talking about your fears will clear your mind, making less heavy.

Try and focus on the good times you spent with your Mum... the time you shared and the laughs you had, if you get the flashback pictures replace them with a good picture of you Mum, I know how hard it is, but please try for your own peace of mind, your Mum would want to look down on a smile and not a tear.

Once you have some help with sleep etc... you will find that the concentrating on dying will fade into the back ground.

I wish I could help you more... please go see your GP and talk about your feelings.

Takecare

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

... I mean a person has the right to die with Dignity, and as their last wish on this earth, why not help them go out painless...

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Precisely. Dignity is the norm here.
And so far I have seen lot's of words, but not one single valid reasoning as to why people are not allowed to decide for themselves when "to flip the switch".

All that prevents the introduction of euthanasia is the religious influence in political matters.
If someone - for religious reasons - does not want euthanasia for him/her, than don't ! Nobody should be forced. But for those who want that : WHY NOT ?

What VALID argument is there against that format of euthanasia ?

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Originally Posted by 0rphan

Hi IS......like you i lost my dear Mum( bless her ) not long ago and my dear Dad is also gone, making me an orphan ...hence the user name.

As you say... the watching and remembering is to much to bare..i won't go into my details they are to painful, i know you'll understand.

Like you i have all the same problems...sleeping, flashbacks and much more.
The shortness of breath you speak of is also there, which is caused by anxiety.

I promise you it does get better and easier to cope with in time, but in the mean time you must visit your GP, you need some help with the sleeping and anxiety. If you can get some decent sleep it will help your mind to heal and deal with day to day living.



You think you are alone but trust me when i say your Mum will not be far from you.Do you talk to her when going about your daily life, i do and it really does help, i also go to her resting place and fill her in on all the gossip etc... i don't really care if people think it's strange i know she hears me. There are several people where i go that do the same.

Perhaps you might find some councilling might help, just talking about your fears will clear your mind, making less heavy.

Try and focus on the good times you spent with your Mum....the time you shared and the laughs you had, if you get the flashback pictures replace them with a good picture of you Mum, i know how hard it is, but please try for your own peace of mind, your Mum would want to look down on a smile and not a tear.

Once you have some help with sleep etc... you will find that the concentrating on dieing will fade into the back ground.

I wish i could help you more...please go see your GP and talk about your feelings.

Takecare

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Thanks for your answer, you know I always talk to to my mothers picture, I have it on my altar along with my Dads, But the thing is I don't believe she hears me. I have asked her Spirit to come to me, even in a dream so I may talk to her and tell her how much I miss and love her, but so far she doesn't come to me. According to the Bible, The Dead are not
Alive but are sleeping, until the day of Christ's return which will be the 2nd coming of Christ. The Dead have no memory of the living all of their Love or Hate of anything in this world is perished. So sad to say , we can speak to them but they cannot hear us, because Christ has made them fall asleep, until he comes to judge the living and the dead.

Ok what is a GP? Do you mean general practitioner ? A Doctor ? A Doctor will only tell me what everyone else tells me, Death is apart of life you have to accept it, we all have to die some day, And nothing we can do to prevent. Then he will give me some pills for either Sleep or Anti-Depresents, and that's it. But The " Fear " of Death is still there.
Saying that we all have to die is something I already know, and that only makes my fear even worse. So actually I don't think a doctor can help, because what he would tells me, anyone else from my family or co-workers would tell me the same thing. I guess only God
Can remove this Fear, only he has the power, and if he wants to he can wake up my mothers Spirit to come to me, to give me some peace, other wise I will just suffer till the end of them.
:(

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Precisely. Dignity is the norm here.
And so far I have seen lot's of words, but not one single valid reasoning as to why people are not allowed to decide for themselves when "to flip the switch".

All that prevents the introduction of euthanasia is the religious influence in political matters.
If someone - for religious reasons - does not want euthanasia for him/her, than don't ! Nobody should be forced. But for those who want that : WHY NOT ?

What VALID argument is there against that format of euthanasia ?

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The only Argument they have is they consider it assisted suicide, which I don't. They perfer to wait for the body to shut off on its own, regardless to how much people are suffering.
As they feel by doing that they consider it murder. That is why that Doctor Korvikian got arrested for so many years they called him " Doctor Death " . But actually he helped people that were dying anyway, just go more peaceful and painless just like when they put the animals to sleep. To that is not murder, it is just being humane.

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

The only Argument they have is they consider it assisted sucide, which i don't.

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So you agree that there is no VALID argument against euthanasia.

:)

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

So you agree that there is no VALID argument against euthanasia.

:)

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Yes I agree I see no valid argument against Euthanasia, I wish by the time I am ready to Die New York will make it legal to do it, just in case I would need it. Other than that the only other way out would be if the end of the world came before I died, the 2nd coming of Christ, which clearly states that those who are alive will be taken up in the clouds and will be together with the Lord and the Dead who resurrected in Chirst. At least in that way who ever is alive and believes in Christ, would not have to die.

I have known people who have been dying... to be helped on their way, the dose of morphine is increased enabling the person to be pain free so that they may slip away peacefully.

Although this is not suppose to happen it does,and every one knows it does.I do think if you wish to end your life, the decision should be yours and yours alone. The only objection I would have is... what if the person suddenly began to get better, it does happen despite medical opinion, new medication is being discovered all the time, for all manner of deceases, so I always have that lingering doubt.

Many peoples opinions on this subject are down to their religious beliefs,however I think the good guy upstairs ( GOD) would understand if the person ending their life was in severe pain leaving no quality of life for this person.

Yes GP is a doctor and yes they probably will give you pills to help you, this is a difficult time right now, it is natural to grieve it is all part of the healing process but a little help until you are stronger I feel would be beneficial, obviously it has to be your choice.

I am so sorry that you don't believe your Mum can hear you, obviously you have to stand by what you believe and I respect that, I can only add that I have not seen my Mum either but I have heard her call my name, I have seen my Dad though and I have spoken to him.

I think they come of their own free will you cannot call them, they will come naturally to you, I have had many eperiences that prove to me that there is a spiritual life without doubt, what I have seen leaves me no doubt, I am only sorry that you cannot gain some comfort from this.

I do still think that you need some sort of councilling... we all think of death and dying but try not to think about it, where as you seem to have become obssesive about death which is not normal behaviour... try and speak to a berievement counciller or maybe your minister, I am sure they will help.

Your only 47 you have many years in front of you yet, so try not to dwell on the fact that soon you will be 50... there is still 3 years to go.



Takecare

The panic attacks you describe could be a real medical problem. You could have a heart valve problem, even bacteria from your teeth can cause small blockage and a leaky heart valve. I saw a dr. years ago and she prescibed calcium channel blockers (which didn't work for me) and then beta blockers. After that the whole racing thoughts can't breathe pain in chest worried about dying thing went away completely, it was like I was a whole new person. So get a good medical checkup, especially if family history of diabetes.
Also it's important to remember if a person is approaching death like you speak of, they are very likely unconscious which is a whole lot like being asleep, you aren't aware of your surroundings. The brain and organs start to shut down and you go into a sugar rush or intoxicated state because the body is not removing the normal waste products. The limbs may be numb it's like when a person is out in exteme cold and starts to fall asleep.
I do not agree with "putting them to sleep" I made that decision once for one of my dogs that was very old. The injection I understand just paralyzes the muscles so they can't move or breathe and they die of oxygen starvation. My dog never got rigor mortis after the injection. The vet pronounced him dead because there were no vital signs. For all I know I buried him alive. That still haunts me. I would never do it again.

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Originally Posted by 0rphan

The only objection i would have is ....what if the person suddenly began to get better, it does happen dispite medical opinion....

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This suggests somehow that euthanasia would be available on impulse. That is clearly not the case. Here in Europe you first get a physician, than a psychiater, and last a lawyer next to your bed, all making sure that you have a terminal disease, pain, and the wish to pull your own "plug".

If you read the story about In Sorrow's mother, you will know that for her there was no longer any chance to get better. And that her mother was in great pain and distress.
Than why not allow her the dignity to depart in the way she wanted? Why did she have to go through all that pain? Why are people forced by religious fanatics - through their influence on US politics - to die like beasts ? (actually they die worse than beasts, as beasts at least get their injection...

:rolleyes:

#5 : Aliboosh disagrees : "If your not religious you could still fear nothingness"

You may disagree... But I work at a hospes where I see people dying on a weekly basis.
In general (and I can assure you this is correct) the majority of those fearing death do not do that in view of the nothingness. Do you fear sleeping each night because that is several hours of nothingness?

Under normal circumstances (being healthy) nobody looks forward to his/her death.
Mainly because it is final, without any way back.
People who fear death do that because they were brainwashed by religion to fear death.
And religion does that, because it is a way to keep control over the flock, to keep people in line with empty promisses of heaven and empty threats of hell.

Christian people who fear death fear Final Judgement and hell. Not nothingness.

:rolleyes:

Well my mother passed away after a long illness of 10 years She had Alzheimers'. She had a bad reaction to some medication and coded in cardiac arrest but was resuscitated and rushed to a hospital. I sat there with my father as he struggled over his decision whether to sign a no code order for her after this. A priest gave her the anointing of the sick or maybe it was the last rites and asked her if she loved Jesus. My mother had not spoken to anyone in years because of her illness, clearly said, "yes I do" I can't think she could have been afraid
My father broke down in tears as he realized if she held nothing against God, he had no reason to and he needed to get on the right path if they were going to see each other again on the other side(she passed away 3 years later)

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

The panic attacks you describe could be a real medical problem. You could have a heart valve problem, even bacteria from your teeth can cause small blockage and a leaky heart valve. I saw a dr. years ago and she prescibed calcium channel blockers (which didn't work for me) and then beta blockers. After that the whole racing thoughts can't breathe pain in chest worried about dying thing went away completely, it was like I was a whole new person. So get a good medical checkup, especially if family history of diabetes.
Also it's important to remember if a person is approaching death like you speak of, they are very likely unconscious which is a whole lot like being asleep, you aren't aware of your surroundings. The brain and organs start to shut down and you go into a sugar rush or intoxicated state because the body is not removing the normal waste products. The limbs may be numb it's like when a person is out in exteme cold and starts to fall asleep.
I do not agree with "putting them to sleep" I made that decision once for one of my dogs that was very old. The injection I understand just paralyzes the muscles so they can't move or breathe and they die of oxygen starvation. My dog never got rigor mortis after the injection. The vet pronounced him dead because there were no vital signs. For all I know I buried him alive. That still haunts me. I would never do it again.

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Well my mother was completely aware, she was having difficulty breathing so they rushed her to the ICU, she just did not fall into a peaceful sleep and peacefully dirft away, I wish that were the Case, she struggled for breath that was why she was put on a machine in the ICU to help her breath . And I fear that happening to me.

If you look on line, they tell you the signs that a person is approaching Death, and one of them is " Dyspena " which is difficult breathing like my mother had. And also the dropping of the blood pressure, not wanting to eat, feeling naushas, these she had a week before she died, then last but not least is the " Awlful Death Rattle ", just the thought of the dying process terrifies me alone, as I would not want to die from Suffocation or not being able to breathe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 0rphan

I have known people who have been dying... to be helped on their way, the dose of morphine is increased enabling the person to be pain free so that they may slip away peacefully.

Although this is not suppose to happen it does,and every one knows it does.I do think if you wish to end your life, the decision should be yours and yours alone. The only objection i would have is ....what if the person suddenly began to get better, it does happen dispite medical opinion, new medication is being discovered all the time, for all manner of deceases, so i always have that lingering doubt.

Many peoples opinions on this subject are down to their religeous beliefs,however i think the good guy upstairs ( GOD) would understand if the person ending their life was in severe pain leaving no quality of life for this person.

Yes GP is a doctor and yes they probably will give you pills to help you, this is a difficult time right now, it is natural to grieve it is all part of the healing process but a little help until you are stronger i feel would be beneficial, obviously it has to be your choice.

I am so sorry that you don't believe your Mum can hear you, obviously you have to stand by what you believe and i respect that, i can only add that i have not seen my Mum either but i have heard her call my name, i have seen my Dad though and i have spoken to him.

I think they come of their own free will you cannot call them, they will come naturally to you, i have had many eperiences that prove to me that there is a spiritual life without doubt, what i have seen leaves me no doubt, i am only sorry that you cannot gain some comfort from this.

I do still think that you need some sort of councilling....we all think of death and dying but try not to think about it, where as you seem to have become obssesive about death which is not normal behaviour......try and speak to a berievement counciller or maybe your minister, i am sure they will help.

Your only 47 you have many years in front of you yet, so try not to dwell on the fact that soon you will be 50...there is still 3 years to go.



Takecare

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My friend you are lucky that you at least heard your mums voice, and you said you saw you dad and spoke to him, how was this in a Dream , or while you were awake?

I have heard of people Speaking to the Dead, but I have never seen my mother or my father I have prayed for their spirit to come fourth so I can talk to the, I even asked Jesus if he may please give me that favor, I go to church and pray to him and I pray also in my house, and I have never Seen my Dad or my mom, my Dad has been dead 21 years now, my mom just died on July 25th. Unfortunately the Dead are just Dead, I wish they could appear and speak to me. But according to the Bible the Dead are asleep until Christ comes
So they can't hear us, sad to say. Its ashamed that Christ keeps the Spirits of the Dead away from the loved ones, even though they are dead in Body, at least he should allow their spirit to come and comfort the living it would make things so much easier. Although it still would not remove my fear of the dying process, but I would feel much more comforted knowing that, my mom and dads Spirit was hear and they can speak to me.

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Well my mother passed away after a long illness of 10 years ...

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That's a nice story about your parents. And I am sorry to hear of your mother. But it has nothing to do with the topic.
Nobody here suggests that at a certain moment people will no longer be treated to get healthy again. Of course not. If the patients wants to go on : that is his/her wish, and that wish has to be respected and honored. Nobody - I repeat NOBODY (including those on death-row) should be forced against their will to die, other than from natural causes.

Once more : the following ONLY refers to a patient with a fatal illness :

You want to go on living to the natural end for personal or religious reasons, including pain and distress : Fine, it is your decision !
But if anyone else wants to end his/her life for personal reasons, than that should be fine too. Nobody has anything to do with what others believe or prefer.
It is their life, and they are the only one who has the right to decide what to do with that life.

I respect your decision to include your religious beliefs in this matter.
But you should respect my and other people's decision to end my/their life the way I/they want.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

If you look on line, they tell you the signs that a person is approaching Death, and one of them is " Dyspena " which is difficult breathing like my mother had. And also the dropping of the blood pressure, not wanting to eat, feeling naushas, these she had a week before she died, then last but not least is the " Awlful Death Rattle ", just the thought of the dying process terrifies me alone, as i would not want to die from Suffocation or not being able to breathe.

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Yes I understand what you are saying, your mother suffered from diabetes and could have had diabetic nerve pain, basically the sugars that her body couldn't handle built up in her tissues just like the uric acid crystals build up in the tissues of a person suffering from gout and they experience intense pain. There is no guarantee that you would suffer the same thing. And when a person's kidneys are affected by the overuse, trying to get rid of sugar, they start to fail which causes a build up of fluids in the lungs, just like a person with a bad case of the flu has to keep coughing to get rid of fluid in the lungs. Or heart trouble could cause excess fluid. Diabetes is an awful disease. This death rattle that you are so centered on, do you realize that the person is already dead when that happens. Just like CPR can put air into the lungs of a person who has stopped breathing, having the air go out of our lungs is normal. We have to be alive and breathing to draw the air back in, just like you have to blow up a balloon but the air will come back out of it on its own.
Your friend Wildandblue does not need to look up death on line, he has experienced it firsthand more times than he cares to think about when he was in combat. Trust me, living is a LOT harder. Any guy can die for his country, it takes a lot of work to come back alive and deal with it.