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Originally Posted by jillianleab

As Synnen pointed out, those things are "proof" to you, not to me. The things you say are "proof" can be explained in other ways, though, for the sake of this thread, I'm not interested in debating that. Think of it this way: I can say there is proof of evolution. The evidence presented to me causes me to believe in evolution. You (the collective you), deny evolution. I can say a million times, "but look at the proof!" and you don't care, it's not proof to you. Same thing.

Look, mountain_man, all other theists reading this thread - you have "found" god. You have your beliefs, and that's great, good for you. Really, I mean that, good for you. If the belief in god and the "proof" in his existence is shown to you, and that makes you happy, then that's wonderful. But why must you be so insistent everyone else see it the same way as you? The birth of a child is not a godly miracle to me, neither is the sunrise. They are things than happen in the natural world which can be otherwise explained. The only thing, and I mean ONLY thing that will turn me into a believer is if god himself/herself appears before me, says "Hey! I EXIST dangit!" and then is gone. Until that happens, I'm not going to believe, no matter how many babies are born.

And sorry, but the question IS if there is evidence for god - you believe in god because you have what you consider evidence, not "just because". I have seen no evidence, therefore, I don't believe.

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Then don't ask for proof or evidence if you won't see it as such; just ask God TO SEE HIM!! There would be your proof, I have asked that question and got my proof.

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

Of course that is MY proof and you have the right and freedom to believe whatever you want to...remember we all have free will!

I know that the concept of God not being angry and out to get us is hard for many to believe but in MY opinion it is true....God is good, just, fair, loving......

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I've wondered since talking with all of the believers on this board that talk about proof. Do think you actually hear god speaking to you like "Mountain_Man this is god, I need you to go to the store and pick up some olives" of course probably less mundane or do you just have feelings that you need to do something with no rational and feel that is god speaking to you?

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Originally Posted by beatlejuice

So i am not going to split anymore hairs with you all, it is what it is. Peace, im out!

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We can only hope.

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Originally Posted by michealb

Why would you believe? There have been so many gods over the course of humanity that we can't even keep count. Why does anyone of them deserve your worship more than the other.

Religion was invented by man to control large amounts of people. Humans evolved to live in groups of up to 150. With the invention of agricultural humans were able to live in larger groups and the leaders had trouble keeping tribes under control. So they did what every great human leader does when loosing control; he invents an enemy. He invents a reason to hate and with the absence of other reasons, you hate for ideals and religion is born.

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:confused: Tell me my friend, what is your purpose here then? Answer: to live my life the best I can and be the best person I can until POOF I'm dead and nothingness, dirt, blackness. Sad. Or is it you don't believe because something didn't go right in your life or didn't understand it and you were disappointed. Seek the truth

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

Then don't ask for proof or evidence if you won't see it as such; just ask God TO SEE HIM!!! There would be your proof, I have asked that question and got my proof.

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I'm not asking for proof. I'm pointing out that what you consider proof is not what I consider proof. The "proof" that every theist has is not proof to me - it is proof to them. And I doubt if I tilt my head to the sky and say, "Show yourself to me" that anything is going to happen to change my way of thinking. If there is a god, and god knows everything, then god knows what it will take for me to believe. If god chooses not to do what it takes for me to believe, then I guess I'm going to hell and it's all his fault. Oh well, at least I'll be surrounded by friends and family. Additionally, when you "asked god to see him" you were under the presumption he exists. So really, ANYTHING could have happened to give you the proof you were seeking. If you tilt your head to the sky and say, "Flying Spaghetti Monster, show yourself to me!" and the phone rings, will that convince you? No, because you are operating under the presumption FSM does not exist. But, if the FSM appeared before you and said, "I EXIST, dangit!" would you believe? Probably not, but maybe. Hopefully you get my point.

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Originally Posted by speakout84

Or is it you don't believe because something didn't go right in your life or didn't understand it and you were disappointed. seek the truth

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The irony of what you say here is that most of the 'bible thumpers' have 'found' god because they hit rock bottom with addictions and abuse. Yet the non-believers have had no such issues.

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Originally Posted by speakout84

:confused: Tell me my friend, what is your purpose here then? Answer: to live my life the best i can and be the best person i can until POOF i'm dead and nothingness, dirt, blackness. sad. Or is it you don't believe because something didn't go right in your life or didn't understand it and you were disappointed. seek the truth

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My purpose just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't care about the people around me so I make my purpose to make their and my time here as pleasant as possible. That to me seems as noble a purpose as any. As far as disappointments go I don't really have any I have a good job, a good looking intelligent wife, I don't do drugs and I don't really drink except for a little wine every once in a while. Except for maybe missing the boat on selling all my realestate holdings at the height of the real estate boom my life is pretty fantastic. All without a higher power guiding me, my life is my doing. I take responsibility for the good and the bad

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Originally Posted by michealb

I've wondered since talking with all of the believers on this board that talk about proof. Do think you actually hear god speaking to you like "Mountain_Man this is god, I need you to go to the store and pick up some olives" of course probably less mundane or do you just have feelings that you need to do something with no rational and feel that is god speaking to you?

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It is really all about a relationship with God. I feel a spiritual connection with God when I seek Him (ie prayer, worship, study etc) He doesn't ask me to go get olives but I sense your mocking with that statement. He knows me and cares about me and yes I sense His presence and guidance. I don't audibly hear Him command me, like the media protrays but that is not to say it hasn't happened to others just not to me.

You have the right and the freedom to your set of beliefs.

"And I doubt if I tilt my head to the sky and say, "Show yourself to me" that anything is going to happen to change my way of thinking"

This is your quote and you won't know until you try. But the kicker is you have to want to know not just being out to test Him. It is your choice!

What's the point in choosing to believe in something u nhave no proof of? Why devote your time to praying and going to church if you have no proof god exists? That time could be spent much more profitably with your family for example. When you go to church your not helping anyone, just spending time listening to someone preach AT you.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The irony of what you say here is that most of the 'bible thumpers' have 'found' god because they hit rock bottom with addictions and abuse. Yet the non-believers have had no such issues.

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Both non-believers and believers have serious issues with abuse and addictions:rolleyes: NK...

Oh believe me I've hit rock bottom in the past and I got through it without the help of a "god", my family were more helpful to me than a so-called "god"

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Originally Posted by geniegee2003

what's the point in choosing to believe in something u nhave no proof of? why devote your time to praying and going to church if you have no proof god exists? that time could be spent much more profitably with your family for example. When you go to church your not helping anyone, just spending time listening to someone preach AT you.

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We all have a "God shaped" or spiritual void in our life that needs to be filled; and I have all the proof I need the rest is faith!

If believing in something that may or may not be there, makes you feel good about yourself then fine. But lets face it we have no solid proof either way that a god exists, not until we die anyway. I don't need a god or religion to do good in this world. Giving to the poor for example, we all know we should do this, its called humanity we don't need the bible to tell us this

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Originally Posted by geniegee2003

If believing in something that may or may not be there, makes u feel good about urself then fine. But lets face it we have no solid proof either way that a god exists, not until we die anyway. I dont need a god or religion to do good in this world. Giving to the poor for example, we all know we should do this, its called humanity we dont need the bible to tell us this

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OK

I give to charity when I can, being a student its more difficult because of money issues. But if we all gave a little bit surely the world and its people would be better off? Ive been told that I give too little, but what about pentioners? Quite a high percentage of them don't give to charity at all, they may only have a pension but they could spare £1 every month surely? They have money to waste on going to bingo and buying antiques they don't need, they don't pay for bus fare in most counties in england, that money they save on bus fare could be used to help poorer third world countries or children's charities maybe?

In a spiritual 12 step program, I see many aspects of a 'Belief in a higher power'

People are from one extreme to the other,but still try to comprehend what the other 'Birds of a feather' are flocking to,peer pressure or the like,to become more in tune with the 'CONCEPT'

It is exactly that, A CONCEPT,(my opinion)

If I chose atheism due to the loss,which my religious upbringing stated, was a lesson from a 'punishing' god,( sadom and gamora)(sp)so be it,It's a coping skill.

Can I return to believing in this 'forgiving god' when I chose to?According to the teachings, its my freedom of choice given by this god to be able to do so,He never abandoned me in my time of need,he carried me through the times I thought I would 'Do it on my own'

Is the end of this life the end of my spirit/soul... etc, who can tell?Scientifically it probably won't ever be proven, so spirituality is just that, a CONCEPT.

Interpretation of the 'religions' of the world can have too many repercussions,Are we better than.. Do their actions make ours wrong?Does the televangelists escapades make religion a questionable pursuit for the simple fact that 'Guilty by association' would make us just as bad as them,or as good and wholesome?

Atheism has none of these social pressures,to not have a belief in anything, you need only to stand on your own,portraying what you are made of,good or bad.

How many Atheists have come to your door trying to explain their point of view?Or pass out fliers in airports... etc?How many other religions have?

I am only giving some more possibilities for debate, not trying to offend.

Ken

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

It is really all about a relationship with God. I feel a spiritual connection with God when I seek Him (ie prayer, worship, study etc) He doesn't ask me to go get olives but I sense your mocking with that statement. He knows me and cares about me and yes I sense His presence and guidance. I don't audibly hear Him command me, like the media protrays but that is not to say it hasn't happened to others just not to me.

You have the right and the freedom to your set of beliefs.

"And I doubt if I tilt my head to the sky and say, "Show yourself to me" that anything is going to happen to change my way of thinking"

This is your quote and you won't know until you try. But the kicker is you have to want to know not just being out to test Him. It is your choice!!

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Mock or joke I guess it's all in how you take it. I'd prefer you take it as a fun joke rather than hurtful mocking. My point with the question is maybe we both have the same feeling maybe non-believers just see it another way. I guess not though cause when I sit and think it's just me nobody else no presence or guidance other than my own.

Not my quote by the way. I don't disagree with it though. What is the difference in testing and wanting to know. I would love to know for certain a god exists. Even if I couldn't prove it to anyone else if I was absolutely certain that god existed and there was a rule book that I could follow to get into his good graces that would be great. So I'd like to believe I just don't see any more proof for your god versus someone else's god or no god. So shouldn't that qualify me to be able to hear god if he exists?

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

We all have a "God shaped" or spritual void in our life that needs to be filled; and I have all the proof I need the rest is faith!!

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I'm not going to give you a reddie because it would be rude, but I completely disagree with you about this. Not everyone has a "god shaped" hole in their life, I don't. My husband doesn't. In fact, none of the atheists I know do. I'll never understand why it is you and many other Christians are convinced one cannot be happy without god; that atheists are miserable, lacking something, have a void, etc. It just simply isn't true. I won't deny there are people in this world that "need" god to make themselves feel complete, but to make a statement that "all" people have a "god void" is arrogant and incorrect. I get it, without god, YOU would be miserable. Did you stop to think that perhaps with god I would be miserable?

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

We all have a "God shaped" or spritual void in our life that needs to be filled; and I have all the proof I need the rest is faith!!

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I also disagree with this. Myself, my wife, my two kids have no such need at all. To assume that all people have this is erroneous.

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

We all have a "God shaped" or spritual void in our life that needs to be filled

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I'll take your word for it that YOU have a void in your life, and that you have filled it with something you call God. But it really is presumptuous of you to suppose that everybody else has a void like yours, and that your method of filling it is appropriate for them as well.