You just proved how much time was involved in the writing of the bible. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
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You just proved how much time was involved in the writing of the bible. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
No. I proved that you were wrong in your statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrwild62
:rolleyes:
If you are trying to back he bible and its illusion, I'm sorry, Prove it! You can't,, not in 6000 yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Why would I try to back up a book full of unsupported wild religious claims?Quote:
Originally Posted by jrwild62
But that does not mean that you without any retort can state clearly incorrect claim like :
The fact that the bible was written 300 years after the death of Jesus raises questions off the bat.
That is NOT correct, and I posted WHY that is NOT correct.
That is why I stated : "No. I proved that you were wrong in your statement."
BTW : I am a "4.3 Billion year person" ! Of course, as that is backed up by scientific OSE.
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=
BTW : I am a "4.3 Billion year person" ! Of course, as that is back up by scientific OSE.
:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
What does that mean?
The solar system is around 4.300.000.000 years old (= 4,3 Billion years).Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
So I base my worldview on science supported facts, not on religious claims.
OSE = Objective Supported Evidence = Evidence that can be backed-up with actual data - in contrast to wild unsupported religious claims.
:)
Thank you for clearing that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Let's go back to the original topic question : "does god really exist?"
All I will do here is suggest to deeply research why you feel the way you do : what is it that causes you to question all that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by shemilo
And next to that : educate yourself. "Google" around to look into all formats of belief and non-belief. Why consider to be a Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Deist, Agnosticm, or Atheist etc. Just because you were born into such a family? Which belief or non-belief shows most appeal to you? Why do you feel you HAVE to choose now? Ever considered temporal/permanent alternatives like Deism, Agnosticism, or Atheism?
Keep your mind open to alternative views. Let nobody force his or her religious views upon you.
As to your topic question : there is no proof of any kind that God exists. All you can do is believe that God exists. Or you can reject belief in the existence of God. It is up to you to decide ! And you have an entire lifetime to take your decision.
All the best with that.
:)
I misunderstoood the opinions you conveyed. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
But all the unproven possibilies must be considered. You can't have a closed mind in this discussion. I am not the "Rocket Scientist". But I think we could have a universe in our fingernail. Or visa-Versa. Far-fetched,, Yes. Prove me wrong then! I challenge you, smiling.
NOTE, Without Bible quotes,, GO...
Indeed we could ! At the minor side I often think along the same lines, when you hear that atoms are build up from quarks, and that quarks are build-up again from fields, and that these fields... When will it ever stop?Quote:
Originally Posted by jrwild62
At the mayor side however there is a clear limit : going from atom to earth to solar system to galaxy to universe, the limit is space-time. We as part of this universe will never be able to get passed that space-time.
Thinking if something is "outside" our universe makes no sense : for us there is no "outside" to our universe ! Thinking otherwise is pure speculation and nothing else!!
:rolleyes:
I AGREE. I think that's just the point. There is no winner in this debate. WE simply do not know. If we disagree on that, we agree. Since none of the 2 trillion people that have ever lived on this planet know the answer, it is simply debatable at best. It is the very base of all scientific thinking. Like Einstein and the like, not religion. Religion relies on wild stories of HELL and suffering. Please don't let that be your reality. Your children if they so happen to, work on one Sunday, in their entire lives, WORK, you are telling them that they will go to hell forever. Lord forbid that they have an impure thought while a teenager in high school. One thought like that and your child will burn in hell for trillions of years,, and then, many more trillions beyond that. FOR having a sexual thought in his/her teens. Is that fair and just?Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I know of some personal training that would assist you in finding out about god. It is non denominational but you will find your answer... guaranteed... you will find out who you are and how you do life. God is in our hearts sometimes we just don't know how to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by shemilo
I'm not an atheist either but I'm in the same boat as you. My mom is a firm believer, my dad is agnostic, and I think my sister is an atheist. Yes its one hell of a family. Haha but I don't get how people can revolve their whole live around a man in the sky.. or around a book for that matter. I don't get it either.. and look at a picture from space.. you can't see heaven or hell.. how do people know its real?
shemilo,
Yes, I have faith that there is a God.
My faith is a religious faith that is more than just belief.
Religious faith is one which is belief, trust and a knowing. That is I know there is a God.
God has answered my prayers and I believe that he saved my life in the Korean conflict.
There is no scientific proof that there is a God, but I suspect that there soon will be. Quantum mechanics already points to a supreme intelligence and has converted several scientists.
One of them in particular is John Polkinghone who has written several books about that.
A good one is "Exploring Reality". It show how science and mathematics reality DOES indicate a God. Polkinghorne was so convince that he became an Anglican Priest.
Another EXCELLENT book is by a former atheist, C.S. Lewis.
His book "Mere Christianity" has converted many people to belief in God and Christianity.
He uses very good, sound logic to argue is well made points concerning we peopleand how and who we are.
I recommend that you read both books.
If you do I'll bet you a nice warm chocolate covered jelly doughnut that your doubts about God will disappear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I believe more in a Universal Consciousness rather than a person sitting up in the clouds with a judgmental "Smite" button. I think this Consciousness is an energy rather than a judgment.
Digipix,
Believe as you wish.
I'll respect that.
I also do not believe in some being "sitting up in the clouds"
I believe in my God who rules from heaven far beyond this eath's clouds.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
My brother of course GOD exist... He is in your heart... if evil exist then the nicest man on the universe as well... He lives in your heart... God has been there for me even thow I once thought he wasn't... He testes you to see how much faith you have that's why he confuses you... I have been through a lot in my life to the point I fell and guess what sweetie he picked me up and gave me a lot of love... So many so call witches told me I could never get pregnant, that someone had blocked me from having kids... and I believed since I would get pregnant and guess what I went to church and regreted my sins and they prayed for me and 2-3 months later I got pregnant . Have Faith.. we come from a wonderful place and we are just her to get a point of view then we are back when our time ends here... Believe in Past Lifes, that's why we have Dajavus and so on... God sends us here to see if we learned our mistakes from previouse past life which is called Karma... God Bless you and Remember he is there when you go to sleep and when you wake up.. Dont doubt him, He is all OVER
Lady_Ghost,
I am very happy for you.
Thanks,
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Have you ever asked yourself why we're here? Science can certainly explain phenomena in the natural world and how they occur but no matter how far their investigations go, scientists can never answer the question why. Why was the universe here in the first place? In other words science is limited, whereas God is not. He can and has explained in his word the bible why we are here and his purpose for us.
If there is a creator (some all powerful, invisible, supernatural being) out there, we can't expect to comprehend this one by means of telescopes or microscopes.
Take for example a painter who creates a beautiful painting. How much will you learn about the painter and the reason for the painting just by examining the painting itself? Of course you need to go to the one who created it. As in the case of Michelangelo or Da Vinci, they died many years before you or I were born, so we go to books to learn about them and their thoughts behind their art.
Although the internet holds a wealth of information on a lot of things one needs to be wary of the origin and motive of some sites. My advice to you is to go to the bible for your questions. You probably need help in understanding it too so ask God for his holy spirit to guide you. If you really really want the truth and God can see this in your heart, he'll open the way for you.
Moparbyfar,
Excellent.
Good advice.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Could you please explain to me why we are here and his purpose for us. I have a hard time understanding the way the bible is written so please don't refer me to scripture. I'd like to know in simple plain everyday English. I'd be very thankful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
We are (originally) here as caretakers of the earth. The earth and it's elements and all the living things on it were created for us to enjoy. We were created to maintain it as a lovely garden/paradise while enjoying a life without wickedness, without earthly governments, without death and sickness, without arguing religions, without racism. Basically without all the things that make mankind miserable today.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
If it weren't for Adam and Eve rebelling in the first place we'd be there already, but as this purpose has been postponed, (thanks to Satan wanting sovereignty for himself) at God's appointed time he will step in and reverse all the damage that mankind has caused themselves over the centuries, thus proving himself the rightful sovereign over this earth and those who choose to worship him.
In the meantime he set out some guidelines and limitations for man through the bible so that we could maintain integrity to him and not to Satan proving to Satan that man doesn't worship God purely for selfish reasons (like Adam and Eve) but that we do it out of love and loyalty and gratefulness.
Tried to make it as basic as possible. :)
Moparbyfar,
Well done and brief.
In a nut shell one might say.
Writing it all out with all the covenants would take a big book like the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
There is no way of knowing whether God does in fact exist. However, that is why they call it faith. If God showed up one day and did a few miracles then it would be called stupidity instead of doubt. Do you believe that God is testing your faith by not showing up in sequens and spotlight or do you just believe there is no God. Really, God gives hope and peace knowing that you are not just an insignificant being for a few decades then--then nothing. The real question is do you want to believe in God or not.
malenymph13,
I disagree some what with you.
I know God exists and so do a great many other people.
Many have different reasons they know that.
But the fact is that statement, "There is no way of knowing whether or not God does in fact exist." is in error.
There is a way that you can KNOW God exists.
Perhaps that way has not yet occurred to you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Dear Arcura,
Do you have his signature? Some artifact that he has personally given you? Maybe he has told you something...
Do not get me wrong, I love and cherish God but just because you believe a miracle happened to you does not mean that he does or that he did it for that matter. Some people say that they see heaven when they die for a few seconds. Obviously I do not have the proper evidence to say whether he exists or not and obviously neither does Shemilo but for those of us without this evidence it really is a choice of whether we want to believe in God. The definition of faith...
malenymph13,
That I lived through the Korean war and that God has answered many of my prayers is enough of God's signature for me.
Of course that's very personal. It proves nothing for you unless you accept my word on that.
I'm sure God has had an effect on your life, but recognizing what, where, when, or how is difficult for a lot of people.
The miracle of life is one that some people refuse to accept as the work of God who is the author of life.
In my mind true religious faith id more the mere belief.
It is belief, trust, and a knowing.
Thus I can comfortably say, "God Exists".
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Dear Acura,
Even if you have lived through stuff and your prayers have been answered. Chance is explained by mathematics, and by chance many of your prayers have been "answered" and you have survived. Though that is not really proof. If I want it to rain and by chance it rains tomorrow does not mean that my prayer was answerred necessarily.
In fact, it is for this reason that I have taken a new belief that God is a very hands off kind of man. Also, he does so little, you can not be sure if he's done anything at all. If he shows up and saves your life or shows up and answers your prayers then that is proof but just the fact that what you wanted happened does not prove God. God exists to be unproved, even if you do see a light at the end of the tunnel that still does not prove God, it just proves an afterlife. God wants to see our faith and would never actually prove himself to anyone(minus a very few exceptions). However, nothing that will ever happen to me or anyone else will prove that God exists but I choose to believe in him/her because that is the direction that my heart has chosen.
malenymph13,
To each his/her own.
Believe as you wish.
I am very comfortable with my believe, but not my faith; I pray that God grants that my faith becomes stronger.
I have seen faith move mountains, literally very near my home.
Nothing can be accomplished without some sort of faith.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by malenymph13
A neighbor of mine who is a pastor once said to me this line which may help explain why you and Acura can't come to an agreement on this.
My neighbor said: "Believe and you will see".
I have 'seen', I currently don't see. I have had periods in my life where I have had no doubt about the existence of God. Currently I am of the 'material' view that there is no evidence to the existence of God and could argue it quite convincingly; any person who doesn't believe would agree with me. Yet, I have had times in my life when I believed for whatever reason and then I saw the evidence, could I reconcile it with all the 'secular' questions about God's existence? Yes when I believed I could 'see' the answers.
Is this some sort of mind trick? In a manner of speaking it could be, but it's more a way of thinking that is more in tune with the spirit; with love, gratitude, selflessness, etc. For those who 'choose' faith, even when they don't 'see' though, they choose to still believe, and in most cases they know in time because of that belief they will again 'see'.
So malenymph13, until you believe it will be difficult for you to 'see' the existence of God like Acura knows it.
Please share with us YOUR way of KNOWING that God exist. I want him to exist, I hope he exist, but I don't KNOW that he exist.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
How do you know that the wind blows? Can you see it?
No, of course you cannot see the wind blow. You might be able to see the effects of the wind blowing, but you cannot see the wind. It is the same with God, you cannot see him, but you MUST know and believe in your heart that he does exist. Otherwise there is no reason for existing is there? Knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Like I quoted in another thread. "When in doubt, doubt the doubt"
It's a simple choice. Ask yourself, why do people believe in evolution? They believe because people have told them that it is true, you personally don't have any direct evidence; you are taking people word on faith; you are choosing to believe, why can't you choose to believe in God?Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
cozyk,
If you have read my previous post on the matter of God's existence you would not need to ask that.
So I guess that you have not.
My reasons for knowing God exists are:
God saved my life during the Korean War.
God has answered many of my prayers.
On top of that the very vast complexity of forms of life and of the complex make up of life in all this forms... plus the vastness and awesome complex yet very uniform makeup of the universe with its ongoing creations are what convinced me that God exists.
The odds are far, far to great than to accept the idea that they JUST happened.
Another one is the scientific evidence of the Christmas Star, also called the Star of Bethlehem and what happened because of it.
Then there is the many Biblical prophesies that have been fulfilled.
The more I think on it the more I see the existence of God in all thing seen and unseen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
No, I DID read all this. None of that proves the existence of god. I was hoping you would come up with something more concrete. God , I believe is an energy WITHIN us that is one of love, compassion, and peace. I don't believe god is a "magician" or a jeannie that grants our wishes or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
What makes you think "God" saved your life. Maybe, science or doctors, or chance saved your life.
God has answered many of your prayers. Does that mean God has NOT answered many of your prayers too? The laws of math and statistics have a say in your prayers being "answered". I have a friend whose 18 year old daughter died on New Years Eve. He prayed to God to save his daughter. Why would God save your life and not hers? Why would God answer your prayer and not his?
The creation of the universe does not PROVE God's existence. It proves that biology and "cause and effect " are alive and well.
Biblical prophesies don't mean anything since we don't know the bible is fact. It is hearsay.
What else you got? I'm not arguing as much as I am playing "the devils advocate":D so to speak. I'm waiting to hear something that is not explained by science or common sense.
I don't see God as a being "out there " somewhere " And it is not good enough that we live "god like" lives, we also have to believe a tale as crazy as the one described in Luke. He came to earth, in the form of a baby, :confused:was born unto a virgin,;) ( I guess Joseph bought this too). spread the word of gods love for us, was nailed to a cross, eventually died, after saying "MY God, why hast thou forsaken me?" was buried in a tomb and 3 days later disappeared from this tomb, supposedly to asend to heaven. And that heaven was a place only for the few that believed this tale and IF you don't believe this you can burn in hell for eternity. This is a horrible story. It is based on fear of punishment instead of love.
I do choose to believe in god. A godly power of love and goodness.Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
I do not believe in the angry wrath filled god described in the bible . The one that christians claim is the one and only true god. The one that has set a trap that so many will fail, and then be sent straight to hell.
The fact that I choose to believe gives me no authority to insist that someone else must believe as I do. THAT, is the difference, I don't say that my way is the only way as christians do. If you are going to insist on that, you better be able to back it up. So far, I haven't read anything that backs it up.
You Literally saw God move a mountain near your home. You must elaborate on this. Why wasn't CNN all over this?:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
While I don't think most Christian's would agree, but not one of them believes in the same God that the other one does. What I mean is, as human's based on our experiences each and everything appears slightly if not largely different to each of us. What we do have in common is a language which helps us describe common agreed upon descriptors which help us understand each other. Christian's have an agreed upon set of words to describe God, but I can assure you that each Christian's experience and perception is different.
So for those of us who have a different described perspective of God which does not come directly from the Christian bible are we so different from Christian's who in fact can't agree across denominations never mind that some view God as a punishing God and others simply view Him as Love.
The point is, Christian or otherwise, believing in God is personal choice and I believe a personal relationship in a power greater than yourself. Whether that power greater than yourself is a divine being or love and goodness makes no difference on a personal level.
As for Christian's believing that the rest of humanity is going to hell if they don't believe in Jesus. That's their choice, for the rest of us to get angry over their belief is silly especially if we truly don't believe it. Why get bent out of shape over it unless we believe there is some truth to it and the reason we resent the belief is that we don't want to do what is necessary not to go to hell; we want an easier way, for most on the fence people I think this is their dilemma.
The nice thing about believing in God of your own personal experience from your life only, is that you can count on being true to you. You didn't learn it from the outside influences with the exception of the God concept which helped you mold and fit your experiences into your own personal view of God or whatever else you may call your faith or lack thereof.
So God does exist for each person individually if they so choose; as equally as God does not exist for those people who do not choose to believe. It's really as simple as that.
Thank you for responding so quickly. I do agree a lot of what you had to say. Especially the part about getting bent out of shape about it. I happen to know and love wonderful, love filled, love giving people who happen to be atheist. I fear for their souls IFQuote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
The christian hell is indeed true. I can't let myself believe this and it gets under my skin so much that this theory is endorsed by so many "people of God" . There is a very slight chance that they are right and the preachers that hammered this into me as a child are right. It scares the ever loving daylights out of me. Especially the hell described to me as a child. For MANY YEARS,I was devastated because I believed my dead, non church going , grandfather was actually burning, on fire, with unspeakable pain, for all of eternity. What kind of image is that to give to a child? It's cruel really.
I feel I'm right, I pray that I am right, I just have to rid myself of the years of hell fire and brim stone that was drilled into me for so many years.:o
cozyk,
I did NOT say that God moved that mountain.
I said that faith did.
In this case it was men and women whose faith that it could be done did so.
They were after gold and silver.
They are now working on the next mountain.
My point is that nothing can be done without some sort of faith.
If you don't have enough faith to fix breakfast you can not do it.
Faith does often heal people. Most of the time it is faith in God that does the job.
Yes chance could have been what saved my life, but I believe that God provided that chance.
God answered all of my prayers but some of the answers we NO!
I believe that God in His infinite and perfect wisdom and understanding answers prayers several ways.
They are: YES, NO, MAYBE, and YOU'VE GO TO BE KIDDING.
The chance that the universe started on it own is a wild next to nothing chance.
A scientist who has studied that chance provided this example.
You are given a dart to though at an elephant 100 feet away and the target you must hit is a molecule on the hide of the elephant on the other side from you of that animal.
That chance is 1 in 10 with 1000 more zeros behind it.
In other words the words "very slim chance" is a vast exacerbation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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