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I didn't mean that comment in the sense as something so dire for myself. But What I mean is life is hard and it can be extremely dreadful at times, look at all war, crime, poverty, these are horrible humanity problems. Is that like hell on earth in my book yes. Compared to what heaven is suppose to be like. That's what I meant by a contrast. Sorry I didn't explain it better, Thanks for the concern though but Im fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I see. I'm an empathetic person myself but I try to distance myself from the inhumanity caused by others and focus on my family and the good things around us: a day at the beach, a good party, planning a trip to a Greek island, picnics, etc..
Oh I do too. In the midst of all the negativity in the world I focus on things that make me happy and try to not take everything for granted. But I can't deny what I see as far as inhumanilty goes. Just turn on your local news you can't escape it.
Maybe it just effects me different. I'm sensetive to these things.
Actually I believe hell is on earth too. I'm having a pretty good life right now, but I'm one of the few lucky ones. As you said bizygurl there's all this suffering and wars alll over the world. The majority of people in the world do not live even as well as someone on social assistance (welfare) does in Canada, for example. And living on social assistance here is really quite bleak.
If this is Eden, I want my money back. If life is kind to someone, than that person is lucky, not necessarily deserving. If they recognisee their good fortune than they are blessed. If someone has a poor life but still radiates happiness than that person is to be admired. If someone has it good but still complains, well, go away.
What bothers me is just how fast decent people can become brutes if subjected to stress. Think of a mob or a tortured prisoner. We are always only inches away from becoming animals. Where is our soul than?
Wow, you guys are depressing me. I guess I'm the only one enjoying my time here.
NeedKarma, I am really enjoying my life. Yes, lots of stress at times, many changes and many learning oppurtunities and many disappointments but I also believe the company you keep can influence how you feel. To stay positive, it is good idea to surround yourself with positive people. There are people who feed off each others energies. Or even try to take energy away from others. Who knows EH! Well Just commenting on your comment.
Joe
Saying the Hell and Earth are one in the same isn't saying that my life sucks. Life is pain. Life is suffering. We have learned that through just about every religion.
The reason why you and I (and many others) are happy is because we have found the strength to rise above it and use our free will for the betterment of ours, and others, lives.
That's the whole point! We can create this positive energy in our lives. "Where your attention goes, energy flows... where energy flows, things grow." "What you focus on is what you experience, what you think is what you create."
In Buddhism, we learn that Life Is Suffering (The First Noble Truth). Life includes pain, getting old, disease, and ultimately death. We also endure psychological suffering like loneliness frustration, fear, embarrassment, disappointment and anger. This is an irrefutable fact that cannot be denied. It is realistic rather than pessimistic because pessimism is expecting things to be bad.
We also learn that Suffering can be overcome and Happiness can be attained (The Third Noble Truth); that true happiness and contentment are possible. Lf we give up useless craving and learn to live each day at a time (not dwelling in the past or the imagined future) then we can become happy and free.
That's a really good statement Dr.Jizzle, I completely agree. I didn't know you were a buddhist. Buddhism has always fascinated me. I wanted to comment on your post but I got to spread rep. around and all that jazz
Actually, I wouldn't consider myself a Buddhist. Although, I do believe a lot that is said there. I don't really consider myself anything. Lol I have studied a lot of different religions and faiths, and I feel they all hold a lot of truth.
Thanks for the attempted rep though lol ;)
Oh your welcome. I don't consider myself anything in particular either. I like reading up on different religons also. Buddhism is defenitly a facinating one. I believe a lot of what is said too.
Hi. I just stumbled across this debate the other day, and have found it to be very interesting. Many good and valid points and perspectives. Since the subject of Buddhism has been raised, I thought I would add my perspective. Firstly though, you would have to distinguish "rebirth" and "reincarnation." Reincarnation is a Hindu belief, wherein devout followers believe in an "atman" or soul which aquires a new body upon death.
Rebirth is both more subtle and yet more complex. Buddhism states that all wordly entities and phenomena are characterized by two characteristic hallmarks, "impermanence" and "lack of an inherent seperate identity or existence." True Buddhists don't believe in a soul in the most traditional, strictest sense of the word. Rather, all sentient (self-aware) beings possess "buddha-nature", an inherently perfected state common to all life, beyond boundaries and the dualistic distinctions of self and other. Much the way we were all created in God's image. Were are all children of God, and yet there is only one God. Depending on the school of Buddhism, this perfected state has many names, but ultimately, it is the "ultimate" or "true nature of mind." A union of emptiness, and luminosity which is it's spontaneous unconceived expression. All things arise together from emptiness, and all things return to emptiness. Emptiness is the fullest expression of potential, it is ripe with every possibility. Quantum physics supports many of the ancient assertions of Buddhism in that all wordly manifestions at their grossest level are just light suspended in empty space.
"True mind" must be distinguished from "relative" or "ordinary mind" -- sometimes referred to in Zen as "monkey mind" due to our relative inability to exert control over many of our rapidly changing thoughts, much like a wild chimpanzee swinging from branch to branch. According to Buddhism there are twelve links of causation in the chain of suffering, but it is with the assertion of the ego, the independent self that all trouble truly begins. We spend the rest of our lives attempting to protect this manufactured identity. As DrJizzle stated, desiring after some things, as well as running from others. We constantly pick, rather than accept things for the way they are, perfect in their own right. It is simply our perceptions that are flawed. Like all dualistic concepts, good and bad, pretty and ugly, are simply concepts, judgements calls that have no concrete substance outside the ordinary moving (thinking) mind. It is only through ingrained cultural consensus that most of us are able to abide by the commonly accepted rules. Though often, when encountering another culture or religion, our whole notion of everyday reality can come into question, and our first instinct is to react with hostility, in an attempt to preserve the integrity and sanctity of our ordinary mind, the truest expression of our individual being. It is through our choices that karma is created, as all willful and reasoned choices have consequences. Karma can literally be translated as "volitional action." Karma is ingrained potential, and through such we literally lay the groundwork for our probable futures. It's habitual tendency coupled with opportunity and circumstance. It is these as yet unexpressed karmic potentials that carry over into future lives. An energetic continuum that very much determines the state of our future rebirth depending on our characteristic dominant delusion or negative emotion in this life, of which Tibetan Buddhism states there are six. Anger, Greed, Ignorance, Desire, Jealousy and Pride, leading to rebirth respectively in the Hell Realm, Hungry Ghost Realm, Animal Realm, Human Realm, Demigod Realm, and God Realm.
These notably are all psychological states that we all occasionally cycle through regardless of the fact that we inhabit the Human Realm, and by virture of our karma, our ingrained habitual tendencies, we all tend to gravitate toward certain negative states more than others. As well, for each of these states there is a corresponding wisdom, a virtue which acts as an antidote of sorts. It is our ultimate purpose in life to purify ourselves of these six root afflictions. Until we do, we will continue attaining endless rebirths, perpetuating the cycle of suffering in "Samsara", the world of ordinary existence. Nirvana is the opposite of Samsara, a state free of the suffering of these six characteristic afflictions. Nirvana means "to blow out (extinguish) the flame" of suffering. Though to be truly liberated, we must ultimately go beyond all notions of duality, this includes the notions of Samsara and Nirvana. It is when we go beyond all distinction, affliction and duality that we will ultimately go beyond both birth and death, and will no longer be subject to a cycle of endless rebirths. Like the famous Tai Chi (Yin Yang) symbol of Taoism, though the circles both large and small, represent that nothing can be conceptually understood in absence of its opposite and respective counterpart, fundamentally there is no true distinction -- reality is an unbounded, unbroken whole.
Many people rightfully and validly refer to this world as hell. Ultimately our karma determines our dominant view, Heaven or Hell. Though the traditional Buddhist view would state that such people are dominated by their anger, it is true that all of ordinary existence is tainted with a bit of dissatisfaction. That is why from the Buddhist perspective, a human life is considered a most rare and precious opportunity. Often when consequences are not immediate, we feel we have somehow won, escaped, or beaten the law of cause and effect. Though good people may suffer greatly in this life for actions committed in past lives, remember, you garnered enough virtue to attain the human life you now have. People with no regard for others will ultimately atone in future lives, whether they care to or not. Though the gods may have the longest lives characterized by all the luxuries this life can afford and more, they too will die someday, having lived ingnorant of their own mortality, never having been spurred to strive for something better and far more enduring. Though we all suffer in this life from time to time, yet our lives are hopefully balanced by an equal measure of joy and discerning faculties. We have enough discomfort to motivate us, and enough abilities to potentially recognize our truest nature.
In my own experience, I have read that certain early Christians did believe in reincarnation, most notably in "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche. Also in the book is the most compelling documented evidence of possible rebirth or reincarnation -- a well known story about an Englishman named Arthur Flowerdew.
Rebirth far from implies that God somehow got it wrong the first time. Quite to the contrary, it simply implies that we have been lost and searching outside ourselves for answers for countless millennia. God didn't get it wrong, we did. Whereas Christianity often sees knowledge as the original sin, Buddhism could be said to see it as ignorance. All we have to do is part the drifting clouds, our thoughts, that are the manifestations of our ordinary mind, and we will see ourselves for what we truly are, each perfect in our own right -- a marriage of luminosity and emptiness, the purest expression of Buddha Nature, the face of God. Buddha simply means "Awakened One."
Treat everyone with respect, as they have all been your best friend, mother, father, brother or sister in a past life, as well as your adversary. And ultimately, we are all already Buddhas, we simply need to finally awaken to this fact.
Namaste! :)
Well, thanks for clearing that all up Thomas1970. But I feel like I'm in the 70's just reading it! I don't claim to be well versed in Bible scripture but I can call a psychology lesson when I see it. One thing I noticed regarding your description, is, that you are focusing so hard on yourself & your mind, how can you possibly have peace? Where is the God that helps you not do it alone? Where is the abundant life, the blessings, the faith & true hope, the blissful heaven, that only
Comes from a relationship with Jesus. There's real power for living in the one true God, Jesus Christ, & the Holy Spirit. And Christianity works. The more mature in Christ ( and one be 16 & mature in Christ) the more one can see that it works.
Buddhism actually gives me a headache. I don't have do go through all of that just to meditate & get along with people ( that karma word again) No, it's like worshiping the wind
Love & Peace
Hi 31pumpkin, I appreciate your response. Admittedly, I myself am not well versed in Bible scripture despite having been raised in a Catholic family. I am fairly well versed in Western psychology, though abandoned it along with much of Western science and medicine long ago. Though Buddhism is often referred to as a psychology, a philosophy, and a religion -- ultimately it is nothing more than a "skillful means", a path to liberation from suffering. It is said in Buddhism, that the teachings ferry us across the turbulent waters of suffering. When you reach the far shore of enlightenment, you send the raft back in order that others may make use of it. Only a fool would continue across land with the raft on his back.
I'm certainly not here to argue with anyone. I simply wished to present another view, an alternate path to ultimately the same destination. The purpose of all religions is to help us attain our fullest potentials, not to argue which one is right or best. I don't believe any religion in it's truest form argues for salvation only for its devoutest followers. I know mine certainly doesn't. And I have many good friends ranging in denomination from Catholic to Wiccan. I respect all benevolent religions, all life -- and I certainly respect whatever works. I'm glad you have also found what works for you.
Buddhism is very much about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, forcing yourself to mature in the truest sense. It is very much about discipline, without a degree of which, I feel few good things ever come in life. Earnest effort is always rewarded in some manner.
My life has an equal balance of focus. I spend a great deal of time caring for everything in my world. I care for the people in my life in many ways including listening, and offering healing such as therapeutic massage. I compose healing music. And I spend a great deal of time caring for the natural world, both hands-on and by promoting awareness through photography. I believe the only route to lasting happiness is through giving freely to others, but if we don't take the time to purify our own afflictions, what can we really offer to anyone that will be of any real use. That is the true purpose of formal meditation. Though I also consider time well spent with loved ones and in nature to be the highest form of meditation. I certainly won't argue with you on that.
I never feel alone. I know that the Buddhas, bodhisattvas, and even God are there to offer their help, should I merely ask. I'm not saying my life is in any way easy, but I have far more peace in my life now than I ever could have imagined two decades ago.
I'm sorry Buddhism gives you a headache, and I do apologize if I have given you a headache. But as I said, the most wonderful thing about being human is that we have the powers to discern and choose. I'm glad we both have the peace we are searching for. As a matter of fact, I do worship the wind and the blessings it carries into my life, and I am content in the fact that I have not so much as intentionally squashed a mosquito in over 20 years.
Namaste! (I bow to the divine in you). :)
Hola Thomas1970,
I do agree with some of the philosophy in your note. I cannot say exactly what my job is for legal & ethical reasons, but I am in the business of helping people too. True what you said about suffering. I think you can't help someone if you're hurting yourself, so to speak, and you're throwing back the raft is the same philosophy as giving what's good for you to another... esp. if you are healthier, stronger, richer, etc. However benevolent your faith may seem though, it does not lead to the same destination.
If this is more than a phlosophy & it is your religious faith & u were to die tomorrow, then consider Rev.20:14-15. This is not "death therapy" this is the Word of God. In the natural world it could be though, but God is supernatural.
Worship God only- 1st commandment. Not anyone or thing else. Mt.4:10- Jesus said to him, "Away from me satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"
Got to go. Can't text like everybody else! Take the world- but give me Jesus!
I'm a christian and I know it because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. He has forgiven me of all my sins. He came to this earth lived died and rose again so that I may live a redeemed life. He said He has gone to prepare a place for us (mansion) and He will be back. The dead in Christ shall rise first. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We are a Spirit, have a soul which is our mind, our emotions, and we live in a body. There is a heaven and a hell. I do not believe in reincarnation. Once you pass away that is it. You don't come back as another form. We will all be judged by the one and only true God. Those who heard of the gospel and God's great love and still refuse to believe will still be judged. Just because a person doesn't believe doesn't mean it's not true. The Lord is coming soon. Look at the signs of the time. Everything that is going on He said will happen before his return.. . There is a heaven and hell... we will all be judged... we will all bow down to God if not now it will be later...
I am always surprised at how so many people in this country want to believe in reincarnation. The folks in the East where this idea came from know that it is a curse. According to their thought, you must pass through untold incarnations until you build up enough karma to enter Nirvana, which is a state of being something like a drop of water in the ocean, so totally at peace. Now that sounds like DEATH to me! Just to be able to finally die and get it all over with.
Personally, I'm quite happy to accept Jesus' promise of being with Him after I die.
Karma is not something one amasses quantitatively until one can pay the doorkeeper and enter Nirvana. In Buddhist teaching, the law of karma, says only this: `for every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according as its cause was skillful or unskillful.' A skillful event is one that is not accompanied by craving, resistance or delusions; an unskillful event is one that is accompanied by any one of those things. (Events are not skillful in themselves, but are so called only in virtue of the mental events that occur with them.)Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Therefore, the law of Karma teaches that responsibility for unskillful actions is born by the person who commits them.
Let's take an example of a sequence of events. An unpleasant sensation occurs. A thought arises that the source of the unpleasantness was a person. (This thought is a delusion; any decisions based upon it will therefore be unskillful.) A thought arises that some past sensations of unpleasantness issued from this same person. (This thought is a further delusion.) This is followed by a willful decision to speak words that will produce an unpleasant sensation in that which is perceived as a person. (This decision is an act of hostility. Of all the events described so far, only this is called a karma.) Words are carefully chosen in the hopes that when heard they will cause pain. The words are pronounced aloud. (This is the execution of the decision to be hostile. It may also be classed as a kind of karma, although technically it is an after-karma.) There is a visual sensation of a furrowed brow and downturned mouth. The thought arises that the other person's face is frowning. The thought arises that the other person's feelings were hurt. There is a fleeting joyful feeling of success in knowing that one has scored a damaging verbal blow. Eventually (perhaps much later) there is an unpleasant sensation of regret, perhaps taking the form of a sensation of fear that the perceived enemy may retaliate, or perhaps taking the form of remorse on having acted impetuously, like an immature child, and hping that no one will remember this childish action. (This regret or fear is the unpleasant ripening of the karma, the unskillful decision to inflict pain through words.)
If there are no persons at all, then there is no self and no other. There is no distinction between pain of which there is direct sensual awareness (which is conventionally called one's own pain) and pain that is known through inference (conventionally called another person's pain). Whether pain is known directly or indirectly, there is either an urge to quell it or an urge to cultivate it. Whether joy is known directly or indirectly, there is either an urge to nourish it or to quell it. In the conventional language of speaking of events personally, the urge to quell all pain and to nourish all joy is known as being ethical or skillful or (if you like) good. The urge to nourish pain and quell joy is known as being unskillful, unethical or bad.
Being fully ethical is said to be impossible for those who make a distinction between self and other and show preference for the perceived self over the perceived other, for such perceptions inhibit being fully responsive. Being fully ethical is possible only for those who realize that all persons are empty, that is, devoid of personhood.
It is, perhaps, thoroughly unselfish because the aim is to lose one'sself in the mind of God and not be consumed with selfishness.
M:)RGANITE
Don't kid yourself. I am having a blast!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
M:)RGANITE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
I know thee, pilgrim. I lent thee my ox and adze in 1537 and I would like them back!
M:):)RGANITE
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