Chek101, I believe the God of the universe is a fair and just but also one that has certain expectations for His people. I also believe God to be a VERY loving God that sent His very own son to die for all of humanities sins so that we all be saved. Pretty awesome in my mind! In a previous post you stated something to the effect that you found the Bible very scary at 10yrs old and haven't picked it up since. I thought the Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe was scary at 10 but when I read it now it holds an entirely different meaning and emphasis. You do pose a delicate and interesting questions about the scripture being written by man and it's innacuracies; I pasted a response that I believe to be true:

Can the Bible be infallible if it is written by fallible humans?

There is no logical reason why this could not be true. After all, even fallible humans can get things right some of the time, especially if they are supervised by Someone who is infallible.

Christians do not claim that the humans who penned the books of the Bible were always accurate in everything they said or did. We simply believe that the Bible is right when it claims that God guided these men in their task of writing Scripture, in such a way that the result is an infallible book. The apostle Peter undoubtedly said some foolish things during his lifetime, but God did not allow him to clutter up the Bible with any of those blunders.

2 Timothy 3:16 contains the classic claim that the Bible was produced by God, not just men:

All Scripture is inspired by God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
One standard explanation of the concept of "inspiration" is given by Ryrie:

God's superintendence of the human authors so that, using their own individual personalities, they composed and recorded without error His revelation to man in the words of the original autographs [Charles Ryrie, A Survey of Bible Doctrine (Chicago: Moody Press, 1972), p. 38].
We do not know exactly how God accomplished His purpose of providing a totally accurate Bible. But 2 Peter 1:21 gives some insight:

No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
The word "moved" in this verse is also used in Acts 27:15 to describe the way a great storm blew the apostle Paul's ship off course across the Mediterranean. The people on board could spend the time as they chose (either bailing or wailing!), but the storm determined their destination of Malta. Similarly, God guided the writers of Scripture to produce exactly the message He wanted.

Author: Dr. John Bechtle

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Originally Posted by chek101

Gee ... most of those who replied to my post are attacking me because I asked if they believed in the stories of the bible ... forgetting that I originally asked "Define God." These people had a choice: to behave as if I insulted them, or to to simply answer my questions. They chose to be insulted. Um ... turn the other cheek; does that ring a bell with anyone here? Anyway, listen, I read the bible from cover to cover when I was 10 yrs old. Why? because it was the only book I could find in the house. At that time, it was a requirement that we kids bring in a book for reading class every Wednesday. So I lugged in this huge bible to class every reading session. And I did finished reading it from cover to cover that same year. I have to tell you, as a kid, that book scared the daylights out of me; I thought it was the scariest book I ever read and I kept reading it because typical of kids, I liked being scared. That is the impression I had of the bible. But I did like some of the psalms and had committed to memory (back then) several of them (also committed to memory, back then, the Gettysburg Address). But I never picked up the bible again since. I still have that bible btw. It belonged to my mother. So I DO know what's in it. When you believe in a thing without question, that's called "faith." When you question that same belief, it's called blasphemy by the believers. I call it "science." There was no insult meant here, and I will not apologize for expecting to hear others interpretations. Instead, you people would rather go on the attack. Some here have answered with no malice. To those I say, "Thank you for your kind and sensible reply." One of which asked ME to define God. I already did in my opening address. God, to me, is that which all scientists seek to find ... that one small equation that is the answer for "everything." Could that be "faith?" Might be. Could it be a molecule inside a molecule? Could be. I don't know, I just know it exist or none of us would be today. I believe in that. Have a nice day, people.

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Yes, I agree, the Bible is scary: love your enemies, forgive, the beattitudes etc...

I think every believer questions there faith, I do. Just look at the world today with all its senseless mayhem. I think even Mother Theresa, from a Time article, had questions - who could blame her.


I think science and God are on 2 different planes and not mutually exclusive.
Science will never prove nor disprove God, because the issue is faith.



Grace and Peace

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

These are put-downs -- "do you really believe...?" (i.e., you are that stupid to believe...?) "Is that how you imagine your God?" (i.e., that's sure a dumb way to imagine God, the way you do it...") "Not putting the bible OR your God down..." (i.e., "Actually I am because I can't imagine how anyone can believe..."

You don't know what I believe or if I even go to church. Please don't jump to conclusions in your haste to prove your point.

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How can I be jumping to conclusions when I am ASKING what you believe? Ok, let me try to untrack that one track mind of yours that seems to just want to home in what you THINK I'm saying rather than what I AM asking. Again, do you believe the stories of the bible? For instance how about the one where God turned this poor guy's wife into a pillar of salt for looking back at the doomed cities of Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes, I know it was Lot's wife; that much I do remember. Why salt? First off, salt was an immensely important staple back in the day of camels and rocks... yeah, I know, we got camels and rocks today, too, but the point is she was turned into a pillar of "salt." Why not plain old rock or stone? Why? Because turning one to salt would impact the reader of that time, who broke their backs earning their sack of salt, way far more than say: rock or stone might. The image is a metaphor as is a lot of the bible (and our entire constitution I might add). Salt was as good as money back then. What better way to symbolize sin than to depict greed? Money/greed, greed/money... sin! Why not stress the evils of greed and take advantage of, what I believe really happened: that being hot volcanic ash having fallen on lot's wife thereby calcifying her body... yet another opportunity, reconstructed, to keep the commoner in tow. I believe a lot of the bible was written by wealthy and powerful heads of church; perhaps through borrowed tales and revising them like crazy. Do you believe Lot's wife was turned to salt?

Hi! Chek,

You appear to be going through a bit of what I call 'Soul Searching'. Ask all the questions you want. Make them as clear as you can and we will do our best to answer them.

I don't believe in God but I do believ we all pocess God-like qualities. Plan to work on those and I think life will improve around you. You deserve to be happy, we all do. I too believe actions are louder than words. but words are all I have on here. So I'll do my best to get my thoughts and good intentions over to you.

Take care. ;)

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Originally Posted by chek101

Once I was asked if I believe in God, I replied "Define God!" A reply that elicited a look of surprise. I, personally, don't buy much of what I've read in the bible since the bible was written by man. Man as you know is a cunning creature, loaded with vanity, and a war-like, pitifully God-like nature. Back when men wore thongs: sandals and leaves in their hair and where The Today Show show featured feeding folks to the lions, well ... why would I believe text written by people of such a barbaric era? My opinion of the bible is that it was just another way to pen people in, keep them under control. I certainly couldn't have met any of these writers in perosn. I have to tell you, I place a whole lot of credence on body language and eye contact. Words alone don't do it for me. I need to see with my heart's eyes what's behind the words.

As to "Do I believe in God?" Yes, I do! Just not the one written about. My God is an "always was" and "always will be" kind of entity for lack of a better word. Take the universe for example: what a realm of magnificence that is ... a design fully far and away above "perfect" even in the sectors where utter chaos rules. Everything about the way it works suggests a master plan, and behind every master plan, there has to be a master. Reality doesn't work any other way. At least not for us mortals it doesn't. We are limited by a myopic mortal scope. Which is why the masses NEED to believe in something "less work" like maybe ... the bible - where credos are layed out for you. I am renegade in that. I believe more in what I hear coming from inside me and what I pick up in the air.

I equate the writers of the bible to modern day paparazzi or reporters; taking events, shadowing resemblance to the truth, and shaping it so it jells with their own belief system. When it is then pulp-fed to the public by the truck loads. I think I'll stand with the gut on this one. What about you? Do you really believe the stories in bible? Is that how you imagine your God? I am curious about the people who abide this typical wide-spread acceptance. Not putting the bible OR your God down, now, mind you ... I'm just stating my own views on this. What's yours?

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Why believe?

Seek and You Shall Find

Seek within the depths of our being... turn inwards and find the 'one' that resides in 'many'.

BE STILL AND KNOW THAT YOU ARE GOD...

And this being still can happen through meditation and/or devotion.

I believe in the God of the Bible. I believe the Bible is breathed by God's Holy Spirit and written by select persons. I believe that Jesus is God's Son sent to the earth to Testify to the Truth. I believe Jesus died for the sins of all men and that He rose from the dead after the third day. I believe that God is the Creator of all that is. I believe that He is, He was and He will be forevermore. I believe that one day we will all stand before Him and give account for our lives to Jesus, both for the seen and unseen deed and thoughts. I believe that my human mind cannot fathom Who God Is, but only understand Him as I seek Him and He reveals Himself to me through prayer and His Word, the Bible and Jesus Christ--who I believe is the Word Made Flesh.

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Originally Posted by chek101

Do you believe Lot's wife was turned to salt?

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Yep. I believe that what is written is true. I also believe that what is written may also be a foreshadowing of spiritual events and may be symbolic.
Jesus talks about being salt of the earth here:
Matthew 5:13
[ Believers Are Salt and Light ] “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
Matthew 5:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:49
[ Tasteless Salt Is Worthless ] “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.
Mark 9:48-50 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:50
Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”
Mark 9:49-50 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 14:34
[ Tasteless Salt Is Worthless ] “Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned?
Luke 14:33-35 (in Context) Luke 14 (Whole Chapter)

Salt was used for preservation, seasoning, healing qualities. Salt also stings a wound.
I believe the pillar of salt was literal and symbolically used to show the purification of the land from the sin.

One can only truly understand the Bible through the revelation God provides by His Holy Spirit.

I am not worthy.

Completely agree with you chek101... I think the Bible was altered by the men who wrote it. I was a baptist for a long time in a small town, then I moved to a bigger city and am now enrolled in college. This has allowed me to open up my mind. While I was a big christian in my hometown people always said that God talked to them. I can't even imagine this because when I accepted him into my life and worshipped him I felt nothing more than what I do no. I believe in a God, there has to be something out there that has created everything, but I don't believe for a second that all these religions are correct each one is so different from the other. So my question is has God ever talked to any of you? Also which was first adam and eve or the dinosaurs, did God create the dinosaurs then?

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Originally Posted by msu-chanchey1

So my question is has God ever talked to any of yall?

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Well, I can say that I used to believe that God was 'talking to me'- but over time, I've come to see that many of the beliefs I held about god as a Christian were not based on any kind of actual knowledge-

The god I believed in was pure goodness- loving- kind- forgiving- all of the attributes I associated with god were #1. HUMAN attributes being applied to a purely spiritual being, and #2. simply a PROJECTION of that which I thought the ideal PERSON would be- which is, I believe, why humanity's understanding of 'God', at least in Christian theology, has changed in the way it has over time. Rather than perceiving god to be vengeful and punishing the wicked with death and disease, many now see god as loving and forgiving... except in cases where it is convenient to revert to the old view of god.

In times when I believe that god was 'talking to me' (not verbally of course- but leading me in some way), I now believe that those were times when my own instincts and feelings were taking charge. I'd flip open my bible and find something that seemed fitting to the situation- and then think 'wow, that's god speaking to me' when really I had no concept of the context of the passage and what the true meaning was. I would see 'signs' of what I should or shouldn't do-

But in retrospect, I feel that the 'god-talk' was really more 'self-talk'. I was working my way through my own situations, but by projecting that onto some divine being, I was more comfortable in doing so because I felt less alone. In circumstances where I needed someone to lean on and had no one, belief in a powerful and concerned god who offered me guidance and support was welcome- but now I understand that it was merely my belief in that external source of strength that provided me with the ability to find my internal strength and push my way through situations that would have otherwise seemed incredibly difficult. The external source was not present, but my belief that it was supplied me with motivation to persevere.

And as I recognize that, it becomes evident to me that I am strong enough to subsist on my own without any dependence on an external god- perhaps, if there is a god or spirit that created all that is, that god has instilled within me the strength to overcome and persevere- or, if there is not anything beyond what we see, belief in something more propels us to make a greater effort to achieve because we feel that we are never alone in our struggling, and therefore that belief, whether it is based on reality or fiction, has some psychological impact on what we can or cannot do-

But, to surmise my beliefs, as requested- I believe that the 'god' that those of the judeo/christian tradition believe in is a human projection of that which we wish to be. People prescribe the attributes of perfection to an ultimate power that is the essence of all that is good and right and just. Having belief in such a power is not necessarily beneficial or harmful in and of itself- it depends upon the person and what they need on an individual basis, and how they utilize that belief to their benefit. Some may need that belief in a 'higher power'- and some may not.

I have a problem with doctrine and dogma- and with any claims to have 'the truth'- I feel that if there is a god, it is impossible to know that being fully enough to make any definite statements about him/her/it and what he/she/it wants of humanity(if he/she/it is even capable of such a human things as WANTING).

And in the long run, I do not feel that it is really important to 'know' for sure anything about god or the possibility of god- because we cannot know fully, and possibly not even partially, with any certainty. I believe that the most important thing is to treat one another with respect, love, and kindness. Strict religion often serves as more of a barrier between people than a bridge between the human and the divine- and I'd like to think that if there was some great source behind all that is, he/she/it would prefer coherance and peace amongst it's creation than division resulting from failed attempts to understand the creator.

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Originally Posted by chek101

Once I was asked if I believe in God, I replied "Define God!" A reply that elicited a look of surprise. I, personally, don't buy much of what I've read in the bible since the bible was written by man. Man as you know is a cunning creature, loaded with vanity, and a war-like, pitifully God-like nature. Back when men wore thongs: sandals and leaves in their hair and where The Today Show show featured feeding folks to the lions, well... why would I believe text written by people of such a barbaric era? My opinion of the bible is that it was just another way to pen people in, keep them under control. I certainly couldn't have met any of these writers in perosn. I have to tell you, I place a whole lot of credence on body language and eye contact. Words alone don't do it for me. I need to see with my heart's eyes what's behind the words.

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That rules out a lot of history. Did you ever meet George Washington, Thomas Jefferson? Do you believe what they wrote? Or that they existed?

You got to believe somebody? At what point in time do you begin to believe people?

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As to "Do I believe in God?" Yes, I do!

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Well that's good. So why did you ask that God be defined?

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Just not the one written about. My God is an "always was" and "always will be" kind of entity for lack of a better word. Take the universe for example: what a realm of magnificence that is... a design fully far and away above "perfect" even in the sectors where utter chaos rules. Everything about the way it works suggests a master plan,

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Amen!

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and behind every master plan, there has to be a master. Reality doesn't work any other way. At least not for us mortals it doesn't. We are limited by a myopic mortal scope. Which is why the masses NEED to believe in something "less work" like maybe... the bible - where credos are laid out for you. I am renegade in that. I believe more in what I hear coming from inside me and what I pick up in the air.

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Do you believe that God communicates with us? Do you believe that God wants us to communicate with Him?

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I equate the writers of the bible to modern day paparazzi or reporters; taking events, shadowing resemblance to the truth, and shaping it so it jells with their own belief system. When it is then pulp-fed to the public by the truck loads. I think I'll stand with the gut on this one. What about you? Do you really believe the stories in bible?

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Yes.

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Is that how you imagine your God?

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Yes. I believe the Bible and the Bible's description of God. That description is not necessarily what you understand is in the Bible however.

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I am curious about the people who abide this typical wide-spread acceptance. Not putting the bible OR your God down, now, mind you... I'm just stating my own views on this. What's yours?

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My view is that those people were generally martyred or suffered persecution for what they preached and wrote. And they never backed down or changed their story. Either they were complete fools or they were telling the truth. I don't believe that even complete fools would die with the conviction they exhibited. Therefore, I believe they were telling the truth. And that their example shows that what they taught and wrote was worth dying for.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I found cheek101s post to be articulate and thought provoking. I don't find it as a put down to question religious beliefs. It seems to me that if you do get offended by someone questioning certain beliefs, then there is a little piece of doubt in you, and you don't want to go there.
And, if you do feel judged or offended, or what ever rilled you, doesn't the Bible say turn the other cheek? Seems like some of you came back with a vengeance.

I truly believe that defining who or what God is on a large scale to the world will never be known. Different religions and people of the Earth have there own ideologies and philosophies of what or who God is. Some make him out to be so cruel and evil and to scare the be-jesus out of others due to control.
I believe God is defined within. We are all made different with different thoughts, and different ideas, as well gifted in different ways. God is incredible and is uplifting, God is the highests of the high. God is anything that is positive in you and around you!
Furthermore, the stories in the bible, yes they are written by man and I do believe not everything is revealed, but the stories in the bible are to be uplifting, it is not made for condemning or punishing people when they make mistakes, but knowing how to take a mistake you made and learn from it and become the greater person you are born to be from within.

To me, God is our Heavenly Father.

God to me is not a perfect "God" but a learning one based on what is observed in the hear and now and then creating better innovations in the new species that takes its place in future time.

God is one who does not need to defined. He is always there for us and within us. Just do some soul searching and we find him within the inner layers of our mind. What we need to do is that we should obey the inner conscience and it will always guide us to do the right and think in the right direction. It is something to start with.We will feel GOD within us.

No matter what you say about the bible its stood the test of time, it may have been interpreted wrongly, its still here, and still sells so I would say with that knowledge there must be something that's right about it.