Ask Me Help Desk - Atheists do not believe,How?

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait....

If something doesn't come from nothing--where the heck did your God come from? YOUR theory doesn't explain where THAT element comes from! If something doesn't come from nothing, and your God is something--who created Him? He can't have ALWAYS been, not if thoses gases and stuff couldn't have ALWAYS been! NOTHING could have ALWAYS been!

So...using YOUR logic--where did your God come from? How can I possibly believe that he was always there, if nothing else was always there?

(psssst....the answer you're looking for here is "I take it on faith. I believe because I believe it, just like other people believe what they do because they have faith in it, whether it's God or Goddess or Flying Spaghetti Monster or primordial soup.")

God didn't COME FROM anywhere. God has simply always been in existence. THAT very point is what "scientists" have the hardest time with. God is the Almighty, the Creator of all things, the Grand Designer. His existence precludes a beginning like it precludes an ending. He absolutely could have always been, but those gases would have had to come from somewhere. Gases are not omnipotent, they're elements, they're "things". God is not a "thing", per say. YES, GOD could have always been. For some, that concept is as hard to fathom as is the concept of the extreme temperatures generated by our sun. It's extremely difficult to comprehend, but that doesn't make the point any less valid. There's no way of telling how long (in time, as measured by human standards) God had been without the need or desire to create the visible universe. If you're going in under the assumption that only science, and science alone, can explain all of these answers, then you go in with a bias against there being an Intelligent Creator of all things. Science doesn't have to be at odds with creation. Although the Bible isn't a science textbook, whenever it does touch on scientific matters, it is always fully accurate with known scientific facts.

Psst... I'm sorry, but you're not going to provide my answer for me.

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

If God can have always been, then why does he (and you) have an issue with these "gasses" having always been?

You didn't exactly answer the question just posed another, but I believe He created everything including gasses and who is to say "He has an issue with these "gasses' having always been" Have you talked to Him about this?:D

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

If God can have always been, then why does he (and you) have an issue with these "gasses" having always been?

There's a big difference between the Creator of all things, and some inanimate gases. There would be no explanation for those gases having always been unless they had been put there, by someone, for some particular reason.

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Originally Posted by silentrascal

There's a big difference between the Creator of all things, and some inanimate gases. There would be no explanation for those gases having always been unless they had been put there, by someone, for some particular reason.

Not to pick on you in particular, silent (or pick on anyone at all really), but how can some of you keep saying that god can always have been there, while a mass of gases in space can't? Is it just out of sight out of mind for you, because that's not what you believe to be true? If one can exist on it's own, why not another?

See... I just want to point out to you that that is YOUR belief. YOUR religion explains it to you that way. You take it on faith.

The whole point (which I think you missed) was that you have faith that your god created the world, and that He could have been for always. I have faith that those gases are JUST as important as your god is. Seriously--they are EQUAL in importance.

What I was poking at was that I understand why you believe what you do. You, however, seem to have no comprehension that anyone else's worldview (or view of creation) is JUST as valid as yours is.

Ive never believed in God, maybe that's to do with my parents telling me nothing like that exists. But some people genuinely believe and are quite often better peope for it. Religion and faith can be a good thing provided it doesn't get out of hand and infringe upon other peoples right to fait

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Originally Posted by Miss Sparkle

Ive never believed in God, maybe thats to do with my parents telling me nothing like that exists. But some people genuinely belive and are quite often better peope for it.

Define better because at the moment I'm going to take that as an insult

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Originally Posted by retsoksirhc

Not to pick on you in particular, silent (or pick on anyone at all really), but how can some of you keep saying that god can always have been there, while a mass of gases in space can't? Is it just out of sight out of mind for you, because that's not what you believe to be true? If one can exist on it's own, why not another?

It simply doesn't make sense than object, a thing, like a gas could just always be. A gas is inanimate, powerless, and so on. That's like saying, 'why couldn't it be possible for a house (or a car, or an airplane, etc.. etc... ) always be'? God is a being of incredible power, and incredible intelligence. His always having been and always being in existence (being the only one that can make such gases exist, by the way) makes more logical sense than accepting that any gases could always be. You can't compare one with the other, because there is no comparison.

I mean that some people have religion and are better in the sense that they are happier with their life, find they get on with peope better and generally have a more positive outlook on life :)

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Originally Posted by silentrascal

It simply doesn't make sense than object, a thing, like a gas could just always be. A gas is inanimate, powerless, and so on. That's like saying, 'why couldn't it be possible for a house (or a car, or an airplane, etc..etc...) always be'? God is a being of incredible power, and incredible intelligence. His always having been and always being in existance (being the only one that can make such gases exist, by the way) makes more logical sense than accepting that any gases could always be. You can't compare one with the other, because there is no comparison.

Why can't you compare one to another? I don't believe in a biblical god, but I can accept that one may exist. Do you just not respect people's right to have different beliefs than yourself?

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Originally Posted by Miss Sparkle

I mean that some people have religion and are better in the sense that they are happier with their life, find they get on with peope better and generally have a more positive outlook on life :)

I tend to disagree with this statement.

I am religion less and I am totally content in my shoes.

Has a lack of a god image made me a lesser person? Not in my shoes,maybe yours.

I didn't mean that, I meant that having religion may make you a better person. If you're already a fantastic person and you don't feel you need religion then well done to you :) I'm a good person and I don't need religion

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

Why can't God have ALWAYS been? Is it because there is no "proof" or because human finite minds can't logical grasp "always" or for another reason?

Is there any other proof that god existed always,or is it the idea of faith that makes him that?

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Originally Posted by KBC

Is there any other proof that god existed always,or the idea of faith?

I sure hope there's other reasonging behind it than Faith. That wouldn't be very nice of them if they were allowed to believe that God has always been there because of faith, but I wasn't allowed to believe that Gasses have always been there because of faith.

Curious. Where do you suppose the gasses came from? You can't get something from nothing. So who created the gases?

Quote:

Originally Posted by retsoksirhc

Not to pick on you in particular, silent (or pick on anyone at all really), but how can some of you keep saying that god can always have been there, while a mass of gases in space can't? Is it just out of sight out of mind for you, because that's not what you believe to be true? If one can exist on it's own, why not another?

Quote:

Originally Posted by silentrascal

It simply doesn't make sense than object, a thing, like a gas could just always be. A gas is inanimate, powerless, and so on. That's like saying, 'why couldn't it be possible for a house (or a car, or an airplane, etc..etc...) always be'? God is a being of incredible power, and incredible intelligence. His always having been and always being in existance (being the only one that can make such gases exist, by the way) makes more logical sense than accepting that any gases could always be. You can't compare one with the other, because there is no comparison.

I'll try this again.

See... it DOES make sense to some people that a gas and a god are equal in importance. Would you say that oxygen, which you breathe every day, has less importance than your god? I would say they're equal in importance, because without one, you would have no reason for the other. Or--if you gave a person who couldn't breathe the choice between accepting God as their saviour, or a gas that could save their life--which becomes the more immediately important "thing"?

What I'm trying to say is that your logic doesn't work. If god could always be, then gases could always be. How can you prove different? How can logic say that one thing can exist always, because it's a GOD, and another can't, because it's just a gas? How do you know that the gas isn't a god too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by silentrascal

It simply doesn't make sense than object, a thing, like a gas could just always be. A gas is inanimate, powerless, and so on. That's like saying, 'why couldn't it be possible for a house (or a car, or an airplane, etc..etc...) always be'? God is a being of incredible power, and incredible intelligence. His always having been and always being in existance (being the only one that can make such gases exist, by the way) makes more logical sense than accepting that any gases could always be. You can't compare one with the other, because there is no comparison.

Although an object can be destroyed it's energy can not be. At least as far as we know right now. So you are right gasses haven't always existed but the energy contained in those gases has. An atom is stored energy. You can destroy an atom but in the process you release energy. That energy could then used to form a different atom. That energy will always be and it always has been. Maybe your religion isn't that different from science after all. Shame you won't study it.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Curious. Where do you suppose the gasses came from? You can't get something from nothing. So who created the gases?

Where did GOD come from? If you can't get something from nothing--who created the god?

Seriously--this is the SAME logic applied here! What is so hard to understand about it?

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Originally Posted by Synnen

I'll try this again.

See...it DOES make sense to some people that a gas and a god are equal in importance. Would you say that oxygen, which you breathe every day, has less importance than your god? I would say they're equal in importance, because without one, you would have no reason for the other. Or--if you gave a person who couldn't breathe the choice between accepting God as their saviour, or a gas that could save their life--which becomes the more immediately important "thing"?

What I'm trying to say is that your logic doesn't work. If god could always be, then gases could always be. How can you prove different? How can logic say that one thing can exist always, because it's a GOD, and another can't, because it's just a gas? How do you know that the gas isn't a god too?

Because we do not pray to oxygen.

If the gases always were, then how did they suddenly decide to form into worlds, stars, plants, animals and people? Where did the order and beauty come from if not designed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synnen

I'll try this again.

See...it DOES make sense to some people that a gas and a god are equal in importance. Would you say that oxygen, which you breathe every day, has less importance than your god? I would say they're equal in importance, because without one, you would have no reason for the other. Or--if you gave a person who couldn't breathe the choice between accepting God as their saviour, or a gas that could save their life--which becomes the more immediately important "thing"?

What I'm trying to say is that your logic doesn't work. If god could always be, then gases could always be. How can you prove different? How can logic say that one thing can exist always, because it's a GOD, and another can't, because it's just a gas? How do you know that the gas isn't a god too?

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

If the gases always were, then how did they suddenly decide to form into worlds, stars, plants, animals and people? Where did the order and beauty come from if not designed?

ONE WORD

EVOLUTION!

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Originally Posted by KBC

Because we do not pray to oxygen.

No... YOU don't pray to oxygen.

I do. Or rather, I pray to the Element of Air. And that of Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit.

Others pray to trees. Or stars (ever wished on a star?). Or volcanoes. Get the picture?

YOU believe that your god created the universe. OTHERS don't.

YOUR religion is right for YOU. The fact that your mind is closed to what others believe is what scares the bejesus out of me.

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Originally Posted by Miss Sparkle

I didnt mean that, i meant that having religion may make you a better person. If you're already a fantastic person and you dont feel you need religion then well done to you :) im a good person and i dont need religion

I still don't like the way you used the term better, I don't understand why some of those that have religion qualifies them to be a 'better' person than me or others

If the poison were sending down the Mississippi river eventually kills off all marine life at the gulf of Mexico, how will that area ever be restored?

Evolution,adaptation to the new surroundings,new and more tolerant species able to deal with the new chemical imbalances.

How did man come to make a wheel? Was it divine intervention that gave him the ability to deduce the idea from thin air?

How does nature decide to send planets spiraling around each other,divine also,NO it is fact,magnetism and gravity.

Even Darwin agreed that if there was one thing that proved him wrong he'd throw out the theory. He was always puzzled by the complexity of the eye and the peacock's feather. He wrote an essay stating that he could not account for these things, yet this is not common knowledge.

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Originally Posted by KBC

ONE WORD

EVOLUTION!

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

If the gases always were, then how did they suddenly decide to form into worlds, stars, plants, animals and people? Where did the order and beauty come from if not designed?

There's no reason why they had to be always there in a constant state, they coul dbe constantly part of a process, and the big bang happened when that process reached the stage when it became unstable and big banged. The collapse of the last universe could have caused the big bang of this one.

What order and beauty? Evolution only explains plants and people and animals. The universe is a dull and ugly place. Gravity explains most of the order out there.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

He wrote an essay stating that he could not account for these things, yet this is not common knowledge.

The commer comes after the 'yet'

Where does magnatism and gravity come from? Why is the earth the only planet that has life? If evolution worked, wouldn't there be life everywhere since evolution states that the universe was created at once?

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Originally Posted by KBC

If the poison were sending down the Mississippi river eventually kills off all marine life at the gulf of Mexico, how will that area ever be restored?

Evolution,adaptation to the new surroundings,new and more tolerant species able to deal with the new chemical imbalances.

How did man come to make a wheel? Was it divine intervention that gave him the ability to deduce the idea from thin air?

How does nature decide to send planets spiraling around each other,divine also,NO it is fact,magnetism and gravity.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Even Darwin agreed that if there was one thing that proved him wrong he'd throw out the theory. He was always puzzled by the complexity of the eye and the peacock's feather. He wrote an essay stating that he could not account for these things, yet this is not common knowledge.

Have you ever read the origin of species? He goes on to suggest a way that the eye could have evolved a few pages after suggesting that it might be puzzling. He uses the same kind of asking a question then giving an answer throughout the whole book, it's the way he wrote. He was not puzzled by the eye.

They didn't suddenly come into being. It took billions of years. The reason earth is so perfect for us is because we adapted to life on earth, if earth was different we either wouldn't be or we would be different. It's that simple we are a peg that has been rounded over millions of years to fit the round hole.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Where does magnatism and gravity come from? Why is the earth the only planet that has life? If evolution worked, wouldn't there be life everywhere since evolution states that the universe was created at once?

How do you know there isn't?

I just went to the darwin exibit at the field museum in Chicago. He wrote the origin of species in a hurry because someone else was publishing something similar, after he had been afraid to publish his ideas that he had worked out, but not written into book form, over the past 15 years because he feared he would spark controversy with the Church, and he didn't want his wife to be involved in that.

It would be pretty natural for him to have been thinking about an eye being too comples on one page, then answer his own question later, if he was in such a hurry to write it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Where does magnatism and gravity come from?

These come from inherent properties of matter? You want matter to have no inherent properties?

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Why is the earth the only planet that has life? If evolution worked, wouldn't there be life everywhere since evolution states that the universe was created at once?

Earth is the only planet that has life? That's a pretty far-fetched statement. What evidence do you have? Evolution doesn't state anything about the creation of the universe.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

No....YOU don't pray to oxygen.

I do. Or rather, I pray to the Element of Air. And that of Fire, Earth, Water, and Spirit.

Others pray to trees. Or stars (ever wished on a star?). Or volcanoes. Get the picture?

YOU believe that your god created the universe. OTHERS don't.

YOUR religion is right for YOU. The fact that your mind is closed to what others believe is what scares the bejesus out of me.

I am in total agreement with you, I don't subscribe to the creating of the universe by a divine being,I am too intellectual to fall prey to a concept which I see as unprovable.

Yes, I wish on stars almost every night( have yet to see a wish come true, that's show biz... LOL)

I am sorry it seems my views are looked at as closed minded, I am only looking for discussion,often playing the devils advocate.

Ken

The order and beauty of the human body for one. How do you explain the machinery of your cells?There are many studies done on the human cell that prove the order necessary for life to exist. Randomness does not produce life. The Biology Project: Cell Biology There can be no mistakes in the cell or it dies or does not function as intended. DNA replication is a very precise order. http://207.207.4.198/pub/flash/24/menu.swf This is order and beauty.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'
What about the order of the seasons? The rotation of the earth? The process of life? All of these things are ordered and not random. Evolution was a theory based on randomness. Creation is based on order. There is order to life. Randomness and chaos to death.
Isaiah 65:18
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;

Quote:

Originally Posted by savedsinner7

The order and beauty of the human body for one. How do you explain the machinery of your cells?There are many studies done on the human cell that prove the order necessary for life to exist. Randomness does not produce life. The Biology Project: Cell Biology There can be no mistakes in the cell or it dies or does not function as intended. DNA replication is a very precise order. http://207.207.4.198/pub/flash/24/menu.swf This is order and beauty.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’
What about the order of the seasons? The rotation of the earth? the process of life? All of these things are ordered and not random. Evolution was a theory based on randomness. Creation is based on order. there is order to life. Randomness and chaos to death.
Isaiah 65:18
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;

Like I said, evolution explains the order of animals and plants. Anything that is not ordered enough to live just dies and does not pass on the disorder. Evolution is anything but random.

Hello saved:

It's not about randomness at all. You just don't understand it. You've got bits and pieces, but they don't make a theory. I think until you grasp the whole thing, you're better off not arguing about it.

excon

Evolution states that man came from ooze, or a single celled organism. This cannot be. Millions of different species cannot come from one cell. There is design in the order of creation.

Debunking Evolution - problems, errors, and lies of evolution exposed as false and wrong

ACK---KBC, my apologies. I have to spread the love first, but you're right. I was looking at what you wrote, and not who wrote it. I, too, play devil's advocate, so I apologize for taking your words out of context.

I still mean what I said... I just don't think that you, personally, are close-minded. I was going with the argument, and I should have paid better attention to who wrote it.