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Originally Posted by michealb

Atheists I believe tend to follow occam's razor when explaining books like the Qur'an. We know that the book was actually put to paper by a person, it didn't come from the sky fully written on paper that didn't come from earth. Is it more likely that the book was written by a man on his own like the millions of other books on earth or that the book was dictated by god and man only put down god's words. An atheists says the simplest answer is that the Qur'an like every other book was the work of man.

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And the Almighty wanted it that way, that the book be written by a human hand, but divinely inspired, that in itself is a test of our faith and belief, and for those who do not believe it is hard to understand why the Quran is regarded as such.

And even if atheists believe the Quran to be a work of human minds, I assure you cannot justify because in this book, we are given the guidance of inheritance, of marriage and divorce, of business transactions,of the right way to dress,about the moon and the sun being in an orbit etc
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-what Dr. Maurice Bucaille said after he had read the Qur'an:
"My first goal was to read the Qur'an and to make a sentence by sentence analysis of it... my approach was to pay special attention to the description of numerous natural phenomena given in the Qur'an; the highly accurate nature of certain details referring to them in the Book, which was only apparent in the original, struck me by the fact that they were in keeping with present-day ideas although a man living at the time of Mohammed couldn't have suspected this at all...what initially strikes the reader confronted for the first time with a text of this kind is the sheer abundance of subjects discussed... whereas monumental errors are to be found in the Bible I could not find a single error in the Qur'an. I had to stop and ask myself: if a man was the author of the Qur'an how could he have written facts in the seventh century A.D. that today are shown to be in keeping with modern scientific knowledge?... What human explanation can there be to this observation? In my opinion there is no explanation; there is no special reason why an inhabitant of the Arabian Peninsula should have had scientific knowledge on certain subjects that was ten centuries ahead... It is an established fact that at the time of the Qur'anic Revelation, i.e. within a period of roughly twenty three years straddling Hegira (622 A.D.), scientific knowledge had not progressed for centuries and the period of activity in Islamic civilization, with its accompanying scientific upsurge, came after the close of the Qur'anic revelation."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/dyktb.html

The bible didn't fall from the sky either, it was written by 40 completely different people, who never met, collaberated, etc, over thousands of years, yet all their writings are in complete agreement...

The Qu'ran is far more scientifically sound than the Bible, but a lot of the statements are somewhat similar in style to Nostradamus' predictions, i.e. they could be interpreted many ways.

Well, ill take your word that it matches up with science more capuchin, because I'm unlikely to ever read another religions holy book

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Originally Posted by cal823

im unlikely to ever read another religions holy book

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I really wish you would reconsider this choice. If you're truly interested in the life of the spirit, why not find out as much as you can about how people over the centuries and in many other cultures and circumstances have understood and expressed their spiritual ideals and longings? This kind of information is not threatening to the core truths of the faith you have already found, and it might make it possible for you to see them in their universality. Just a thought.

Books that claim to be inspired and transmitted by God, Allah, or any other trans-human intelligence are great. I've read a lot of them, and I love them all. But honestly, the fights we humans get in over which ONE is the RIGHT one wear me slick.

Why do you think Jesus didn't write a book? It certainly wasn't because he didn't know how to write. He was well educated and certainly could have written his teachings down for his followers. Not only did he not write one, as far as we know, he never suggested that his disciples write down any of his teachings either. It wasn't until several years later that his disciples started writing down what they remembered. So why not?

Could it be that he had seen first-hand what mischief and arguments people get into over holy books? During his years in the religious schools of the time, he surely got his fill of endless disputations about trivial aspects of obscure interpretations of this or that passage in the scripture. Just looking at what he did and didn't do, it strikes me that the lesson his example teaches is that words in holy books are not necessarily central to the spiritual quest.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Books that claim to be inspired and transmitted by God, Allah, or any other trans-human intelligence are great. I've read a lot of them, and I love them all. But honestly, the fights we humans get in over which ONE is the RIGHT one wear me slick.

Why do you think Jesus didn't write a book? It certainly wasn't because he didn't know how to write. He was well educated and certainly could have written his teachings down for his followers. Not only did he not write one, as far as we know, he never suggested that his disciples write down any of his teachings either. It wasn't until several years later that his disciples started writing down what they remembered. So why not?

Could it be that he had seen first-hand what mischief and arguments people get into over holy books? During his years in the religious schools of the time, he surely got his fill of endless disputations about trivial aspects of obscure interpretations of this or that passage in the scripture. Just looking at what he did and didn't do, it strikes me that the lesson his example teaches is that words in holy books are not necessarily central to the spiritual quest.

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Have you really read the Quran?

Muhammad(peace be upon him) was illiterate, but he had the Quran memorised as it was revealed as Allah stated that this final revelation will be preserved till the end of the world and that it is a mercy and blessing for all mankind and jinn.

I prefer to differ on this point you are making, in that there was a revelation revealed to Jesus (alaihi salaam) which we know as Injeel and we believe it was tampered by human hands and hence the ones we see today are mixed up with truths of the Almighty and human errors.This is the reason we accept that some of the things the Bible teaches agrees with Islamic teachings.

The message of Jesus
(alaihi salaam) was also pure monotheism as we believe he was one of the special people of the Almighty sent as a messenger to the people going astray from the true Lord.
And I believe in Jesus(alaihi salaam) returning to earth during the end times and he will establish the truth and abolish the falsehood being uttered by people about him.

I also believe that for us muslims Quran and the Hadith (sayings and/or guidance given by Muhammad (peace be upon him) as central to a muslims belief.
The Quran provides the guide for us to follow and Muhammad's life is the example we try to keep to, and we believe that his (peace be upon him) life was everything Allah advised in the Quran .

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Originally Posted by cal823

the bible didnt fall from the sky either, it was written by 40 completely different people, who never met, collaberated, etc, over thousands of years, yet all their writings are in complete agreement....................

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The people who wrote the Bible were different people but some wrote more than one book and did know each other... they were followers and disiciples of Christ. Some knew and walked with Christ while He was alive. Many are letter and expressions of circumstances the disciple is experiencing. The amazing thing is that they ARE in agreement with each other. Its just not coincedence...

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Originally Posted by cal823

the bible didnt fall from the sky either, it was written by 40 completely different people, who never met, collaberated, etc, over thousands of years, yet all their writings are in complete agreement

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Originally Posted by spiffyness101

The amazing thing is that they ARE in agreement with eachother. Its just not coincedence...

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The amazing thing to me is that so many people are willing to skip right over and ignore the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible that are plain to see. To me, these inconsistencies aren't a reason to disregard it altogether, but they are a reason to be skeptical of rigid and doctrinaire interpretations of it.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

The amazing thing to me is that so many people are willing to skip right over and ignore the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible that are plain to see.

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And what contradictions inconsistencies do you see that are so plain to you? Would you mind naming some.. : / To my personal knowledge I've never encountered contradiction in the Bible... There are certain things that are said that shouldn't be taken literally but contradictions..

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There are certain things that are said that shouldn't be taken literally but contradictions..

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With the many interpretations are they not contradictory? Even the Qu'ran has more than one interpretation. Each sect follows their own.

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

Have you really read the Quran?

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Why do you ask? Do you mean to suggest that if I had read it, I would have arrived at a different conclusion about the perils of holy books and the arguments they engender? Actually I have read some, but not all of it. What I've read so far confirms my views on the subject rather than challenges them. If that changes as I read more, I'll be sure to let you know.

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Muhammad(peace be upon him) was illiterate, but he had the Quran memorised as it was revealed as Allah stated that this final revelation will be preserved till the end of the world and that it is a mercy and blessing for all mankind and jinn.

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Whatever its virtues, and I agree that they are many, I really can't accept that it is the final revelation. The stream flows on, and on, and on. Every age and every culture receives the revelations that they need to perform their function. The "end of the world" is a highly localized event, I suspect. There is no end without beginning, and the seeds from the last cycle germinate in the next.

Another hazard of excessive dependence on holy books to guide the spiritual life is that it tends to overemphasize doctrine and belief at the expense of direct knowledge and inspiration.

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Originally Posted by spiffyness101

And what contradictions inconsistencies do you see that are so plain to you? Would you mind naming some...?

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There are hundreds of them, small and large. Here's a whole long discussion of the topic if it interests you. Internal consistency of the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't have a problem with inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible or any other holy book. The fact that they exist doesn't make me less respectful of the book or less inclined to value the many gems of wisdom that it contains. But it's just silly to deny that they exist. Sure, there's a whole industry devoted to the task of coming up with interpretations that reconcile them, and that's fine too, for those whose interest runs to such endeavors. But to me, it just seems unnecessary and trivial.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Why do you ask? Do you mean to suggest that if I had read it, I would have arrived at a different conclusion about the perils of holy books and the arguments they engender? Actually I have read some, but not all of it. What I've read so far confirms my views on the subject rather than challenges them. If that changes as I read more, I'll be sure to let you know.


Whatever its virtues, and I agree that they are many, I really can't accept that it is the final revelation. The stream flows on, and on, and on. Every age and every culture receives the revelations that they need to perform their function. The "end of the world" is a highly localized event, I suspect. There is no end without beginning, and the seeds from the last cycle germinate in the next.

Another hazard of excessive dependence on holy books to guide the spiritual life is that it tends to overemphasize doctrine and belief at the expense of direct knowledge and inspiration.

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I did not ask if you read the Quran as a challenge,but out of curiosity to know if you have read and what you found to be interesting and how you took it.
But I also think if you read the entire Quran, there are certain different things which might make you think more on certain subjects.

And we agree to disagree on certain points about the Quran,Islam and Muhammad(peace be upon him).

About the end of the world, are you not a Christian?
If so I always assumed that we shared similar views on the world ending some day and that Jesus (alaihi salaam)will descend near the end times etc.
Do you not believe in an end of the world and a life after death?
I ask out of curiosity and not as a challenge.

Are you saying that you believe in receieving direct revelations from the Almighty in this day and age?Or are you saying that some are specially chosen to revive religious doctrines?If you could elaborate?

Thank you:)

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

I don't have a problem with inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible or any other holy book. The fact that they exist doesn't make me less respectful of the book or less inclined to value the many gems of wisdom that it contains. But it's just silly to deny that they exist. Sure, there's a whole industry devoted to the task of coming up with interpretations that reconcile them, and that's fine too, for those whose interest runs to such endeavors. But to me, it just seems unnecessary and trivial.

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Then how can something be believable and true if there are contradictions and such? It wouldn't be true then if their were... That would mean you only half believe of what it says. Just doesn't seem to make too much sense...

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Originally Posted by spiffyness101

Then how can something be believable and true if their are contradictions and such? It wouldn't be true then if their were...That would mean you only half believe of what it says. Just doesn't seem to make to much sense...

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I don't think you realize the large amount of christians that do just that.

Oh I know there are plenty of Christians that only half believe of what the Word says. I know they are out there and to me personally I'm not okay with it but it doesn't make me not like them any less.

That makes an awful lot of people on this planet that you do not like.

I never said I didn't like them I just disagree with what they think. That's it.

I just re-read your post and I read it totally wrong, my apologies.
End of day, I need a beer. :)

Sorry about that.