Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Then don't ask for proof or evidence if you won't see it as such; just ask God TO SEE HIM!! There would be your proof, I have asked that question and got my proof.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Then don't ask for proof or evidence if you won't see it as such; just ask God TO SEE HIM!! There would be your proof, I have asked that question and got my proof.
I've wondered since talking with all of the believers on this board that talk about proof. Do think you actually hear god speaking to you like "Mountain_Man this is god, I need you to go to the store and pick up some olives" of course probably less mundane or do you just have feelings that you need to do something with no rational and feel that is god speaking to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
We can only hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by beatlejuice
:confused: Tell me my friend, what is your purpose here then? Answer: to live my life the best I can and be the best person I can until POOF I'm dead and nothingness, dirt, blackness. Sad. Or is it you don't believe because something didn't go right in your life or didn't understand it and you were disappointed. Seek the truthQuote:
Originally Posted by michealb
I'm not asking for proof. I'm pointing out that what you consider proof is not what I consider proof. The "proof" that every theist has is not proof to me - it is proof to them. And I doubt if I tilt my head to the sky and say, "Show yourself to me" that anything is going to happen to change my way of thinking. If there is a god, and god knows everything, then god knows what it will take for me to believe. If god chooses not to do what it takes for me to believe, then I guess I'm going to hell and it's all his fault. Oh well, at least I'll be surrounded by friends and family. Additionally, when you "asked god to see him" you were under the presumption he exists. So really, ANYTHING could have happened to give you the proof you were seeking. If you tilt your head to the sky and say, "Flying Spaghetti Monster, show yourself to me!" and the phone rings, will that convince you? No, because you are operating under the presumption FSM does not exist. But, if the FSM appeared before you and said, "I EXIST, dangit!" would you believe? Probably not, but maybe. Hopefully you get my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
The irony of what you say here is that most of the 'bible thumpers' have 'found' god because they hit rock bottom with addictions and abuse. Yet the non-believers have had no such issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by speakout84
My purpose just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't care about the people around me so I make my purpose to make their and my time here as pleasant as possible. That to me seems as noble a purpose as any. As far as disappointments go I don't really have any I have a good job, a good looking intelligent wife, I don't do drugs and I don't really drink except for a little wine every once in a while. Except for maybe missing the boat on selling all my realestate holdings at the height of the real estate boom my life is pretty fantastic. All without a higher power guiding me, my life is my doing. I take responsibility for the good and the badQuote:
Originally Posted by speakout84
It is really all about a relationship with God. I feel a spiritual connection with God when I seek Him (ie prayer, worship, study etc) He doesn't ask me to go get olives but I sense your mocking with that statement. He knows me and cares about me and yes I sense His presence and guidance. I don't audibly hear Him command me, like the media protrays but that is not to say it hasn't happened to others just not to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by michealb
You have the right and the freedom to your set of beliefs.
"And I doubt if I tilt my head to the sky and say, "Show yourself to me" that anything is going to happen to change my way of thinking"
This is your quote and you won't know until you try. But the kicker is you have to want to know not just being out to test Him. It is your choice!
What's the point in choosing to believe in something u nhave no proof of? Why devote your time to praying and going to church if you have no proof god exists? That time could be spent much more profitably with your family for example. When you go to church your not helping anyone, just spending time listening to someone preach AT you.
Both non-believers and believers have serious issues with abuse and addictions:rolleyes: NK...Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Oh believe me I've hit rock bottom in the past and I got through it without the help of a "god", my family were more helpful to me than a so-called "god"
Quote:
Originally Posted by geniegee2003
We all have a "God shaped" or spiritual void in our life that needs to be filled; and I have all the proof I need the rest is faith!
If believing in something that may or may not be there, makes you feel good about yourself then fine. But lets face it we have no solid proof either way that a god exists, not until we die anyway. I don't need a god or religion to do good in this world. Giving to the poor for example, we all know we should do this, its called humanity we don't need the bible to tell us this
Quote:
Originally Posted by geniegee2003
OK
I give to charity when I can, being a student its more difficult because of money issues. But if we all gave a little bit surely the world and its people would be better off? Ive been told that I give too little, but what about pentioners? Quite a high percentage of them don't give to charity at all, they may only have a pension but they could spare £1 every month surely? They have money to waste on going to bingo and buying antiques they don't need, they don't pay for bus fare in most counties in england, that money they save on bus fare could be used to help poorer third world countries or children's charities maybe?
In a spiritual 12 step program, I see many aspects of a 'Belief in a higher power'
People are from one extreme to the other,but still try to comprehend what the other 'Birds of a feather' are flocking to,peer pressure or the like,to become more in tune with the 'CONCEPT'
It is exactly that, A CONCEPT,(my opinion)
If I chose atheism due to the loss,which my religious upbringing stated, was a lesson from a 'punishing' god,( sadom and gamora)(sp)so be it,It's a coping skill.
Can I return to believing in this 'forgiving god' when I chose to?According to the teachings, its my freedom of choice given by this god to be able to do so,He never abandoned me in my time of need,he carried me through the times I thought I would 'Do it on my own'
Is the end of this life the end of my spirit/soul... etc, who can tell?Scientifically it probably won't ever be proven, so spirituality is just that, a CONCEPT.
Interpretation of the 'religions' of the world can have too many repercussions,Are we better than.. Do their actions make ours wrong?Does the televangelists escapades make religion a questionable pursuit for the simple fact that 'Guilty by association' would make us just as bad as them,or as good and wholesome?
Atheism has none of these social pressures,to not have a belief in anything, you need only to stand on your own,portraying what you are made of,good or bad.
How many Atheists have come to your door trying to explain their point of view?Or pass out fliers in airports... etc?How many other religions have?
I am only giving some more possibilities for debate, not trying to offend.
Ken
Mock or joke I guess it's all in how you take it. I'd prefer you take it as a fun joke rather than hurtful mocking. My point with the question is maybe we both have the same feeling maybe non-believers just see it another way. I guess not though cause when I sit and think it's just me nobody else no presence or guidance other than my own.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Not my quote by the way. I don't disagree with it though. What is the difference in testing and wanting to know. I would love to know for certain a god exists. Even if I couldn't prove it to anyone else if I was absolutely certain that god existed and there was a rule book that I could follow to get into his good graces that would be great. So I'd like to believe I just don't see any more proof for your god versus someone else's god or no god. So shouldn't that qualify me to be able to hear god if he exists?
I'm not going to give you a reddie because it would be rude, but I completely disagree with you about this. Not everyone has a "god shaped" hole in their life, I don't. My husband doesn't. In fact, none of the atheists I know do. I'll never understand why it is you and many other Christians are convinced one cannot be happy without god; that atheists are miserable, lacking something, have a void, etc. It just simply isn't true. I won't deny there are people in this world that "need" god to make themselves feel complete, but to make a statement that "all" people have a "god void" is arrogant and incorrect. I get it, without god, YOU would be miserable. Did you stop to think that perhaps with god I would be miserable?Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
I also disagree with this. Myself, my wife, my two kids have no such need at all. To assume that all people have this is erroneous.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
I'll take your word for it that YOU have a void in your life, and that you have filled it with something you call God. But it really is presumptuous of you to suppose that everybody else has a void like yours, and that your method of filling it is appropriate for them as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
I also agree with the giving of a red,Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Try to picture this,
I had a recovering 'friend' come to the meetings stating personal issues that she wouldn't tell anyone, at least in detail.
Eventually, through enough time and closeness to the small group, she did confide in me.
A person born and raised in a functional Satanic cult( believe me, not many get away from this situation and live outside for long)Her raising was for procreation of sacrificial babies,amongst other duties.
Now was she 'miserable' or missing something in herself that 'My God' would cure? I would like to think so, and tried to compassionately express,to no avail, She made it clear,what her beliefs were, and that she is OK in her shoes, just not in mine. Now, do I have to accept her as just another one of gods creatures, or look at her with disdain over the upbringing and past she has.My atheist side says, LIVE AND LET LIVE, the religious side says SAVE HER FROM HERSELF.
Who is right?
Ken
You all KBC, ordinary guy, NK, jillianleab; all have the right to "stand on your own" that is and always will be your choice. I am not pushing anything on either of you, although I would love to see you believe and be saved, I cannot force you or can anyone. You are free to make your own choice and clearly have. There is no point to further agree a point where two sides are so firmly grounded. If a reddie is what you see fit to give go ahead I don't see it as rude but I will continue to agrue or debate my beliefs against whatever topic is posed so if we come back to this point so be it. Take care
Are you talking about being saved by Jesus(alaihi salaam)?Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Yes
Then according to your thinking I will need saving too,but then as I already accept Jesus(alaihi salaam) a little differently from you I do not believe in what you believe.
I believe in an Almighty who has none equal or like Him.No partners.Not born of anyone, no offspring...
Now see the road this could take.
I believe mine is the One true religion,but I cannot show concrete proof as expected by most people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Your statement about believers is just as wrong as if I classified all atheists as this monster:
Jeffrey Dahmer - Wikiquote
Grace and Peace
But in here we can at least have a social discussion on a very volatile issue.
Catholicism,Judaism,atheism,satanism,paganism,wicc an,baptist,. the list could go on and on.
IS THERE A HAPPY MEDIUM WE CAN ALL AGREE TO?
NO!
What makes one better or more right than the other? NOTHING,just a concept.
If I can live without belief in a higher power/god figure,YES, I will 'stand on my own' like mountain_man stated. Is it something others have to accept,YES.
Anyone else?
Ken
I'm not giving you a reddie because it is rude to do so when someone has expressed their opinion. I felt it necessary, however, to point out the flaw in the reasoning you used to come to your opinion. You said "all" when you should have said "some". I'm sure you would disagree with me if I said, "All people would be better off if they were atheist".Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
As far as pushing anything on any of us, you've done just that. Rather than respect the differences in our views and beliefs, you have consistently told us to "ask god to see him" and so on. Have I asked you to turn away from god, except in the sense that if you do it will help you gain empathy for our position? You continue to say how you would "love to see us believe and be saved", yet no one has said they hope you reject god. So perhaps in your mind you are not pushing your views, but reverse everything you've said, and pretend it came from me.
All people would be better off if they are atheist.
No one has a "god shaped" hole.
Open your eyes, and you will see there is no god.
I would love to see you reject god and realize atheism is the true way.
If I said those things to you, would you not feel I was pushing my beliefs on you? I think you would. Here's the difference between you and me: I don't care what you believe. I really don't. You don't hurt me in any way, shape or form by believing in god. In fact, if your faith is what gives you moral guidance and keeps you from killing your neighbor, well, I'm GLAD you believe in god. But you, on the other hand, appear to have a problem with the fact that I don't believe. Despite the fact that I have morals and values, I don't commit crimes, I'm a good person, I contribute to society and my community, I have a family, etc, that's not enough for you. You insist I must believe to be "good" in your eyes. How about basing your opinion of someone based off their actions instead of their beliefs? How about respecting the differences people have, and keep your religion to yourself when you encounter someone who is satisfied with their spiritual self?
You say you will continue to argue or debate your beliefs, and I respect that, I really do, but this thread is not about YOUR beliefs. This is not the place to argue why Christianity is the "way" the "truth" or whatever. This thread was started to find out WHY atheists believe what they do and what they if fact, believe. It's here to clear up misconceptions, no to present an argument as to why atheism is better that Christianity. There's nothing personal about it, but you seem to have taken it as such.
Well, since I can't give another greenie to you, I will just state the obvious, WE really do see alike on this issue, and I for one, am glad you can write out the feelings I feel so clearly, thank you for your outlook and opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Ken
Actually I was referring to this discussion board uniquely. And I wasn't painting all believers as such, you know me better than that, only the ones who constantly push scripture and can't understand why we don't want to be saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
I believe in the Bible and the road to salvation represented in that. We will all be ultimately be judged by the one true God, I can only do what I believe to be right and have faith that it is such.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
You are right, although I could respond to this I will not because it has nothing to do with the original post.
I was just saying what I said because when you want to save me or others from whatever fate is in store for us after death, it is not really in our hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
We cannot change hearts,soften them or humble them, but the Almighty does when it is their time to accept.
As far as this thread goes, I asked for informations sake about atheists,because as a believer it is hard for me to think of not believing ever as it does not make sense for me not to believe.
Since I started this thread I have come to an understanding of the why's people may not believe and I accept that (not that I accept their beliefs),but just their reasoning.
As I cannot say who is and who isn't going to be saved from Hell (except those mentioned in the Book I follow), I am not going to say all those on this thread will go to Hell or Heaven. As far as I believe, someone who does sin all his life,may change his beliefs in an instant and that is all that takes for a change of heart from disbelief to belief.The same goes for those who believe, I cannot guarantee my place in Heaven just because I believe, it is by the Mercy of the Almighty if I am in Heaven in the afterlife.
All I know is that I am firm in my belief and that I believe I am on the truth,whether others accept that or not I really do not care.The only One I humble,submit myself to is the Almighty and His judgement alone is all that counts in the end.
None of you on this thread can prove to me that my belief is false because none of you can show me proof,nor can I show you proof of the truth of my beliefs except it takes a lot of faith to believe in an unseen Almighty God and as I had said somewhere I see sense in my belief.
I pray that those I do care about (that would include a lot of people on this thread and forum.. :)),see the light before their life ends,but then I cannot guarantee anything to any of you. All I know for certain is that the temporariness of this worldly life is something all of us will agree on.For each it lasts only as long as one is alive,then it ends for that person.
What lies beyond I believe my belief shows me the truth of the afterlife and what happens in the afterlife happens whether one believes or not.Heaven or Hell, its existence will be confirmed to each of us at the moment of our death.
For those of you who are trying to save those who do not have the same faith as you, please help those who seek help first, the ones that turn to you in need of guidance.
The ones that have not asked yet, are not ready to seek that path, no matter how much we wish for things, it happens only at the time it is supposed to happen,not before or after that moment.
The money we earn,the families we share,the friends, homes,degrees,knowledge... all these things matters,but without peace within ourselves there is little we can enjoy..
I wish all of you peace... complete Peace.
I believe that is what all desires for from the depths of their being.
This needs repeating.Quote:
For those of you who are trying to save those who do not have the same faith as you, please help those who seek help first, the ones that turn to you in need of guidance.
Wonderful post, firmbeliever.
Thank you Jill,
That post is from the depths of my soul.
There you go again. You'd get a lot better reception for your ideas if you could just avoid that word "all" when referring to people. Stick with "I" or "some" and you'll be amazed at how much more receptive people will be. Try it. The next time you're tempted to write "we will all" or "we are all" or "we all have" such and such, just say "I" instead. What you believe goes for you, and those who agree with you. Nobody else.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
I feel like every post of yours is from the depths of your soul... That is why I respect you so much Firmy! You are good!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
I think I disagree with you here. It annoys me when people think they have a religion that only applies to them. If there is one true religion, then it will apply to all of us, and if there is no true religion, then the fact that we are nothing more than a fortuitous arrangement of salty water applies to all of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
In that case, Cappy...
We're all going to be reincarnated. If the good things you did in your life outweigh the bad, then you'll come back as something or someone of a higher station than you are now. If your evil actions outweigh your good, you will come back as the thing you looked down on the most, so that you can have a better understanding and compassion for that position. If you don't learn your lesson in one life, rest assured that you will in another. And once we all learn all of our lessons, the peace and joy that we all will have, the understanding and knowledge, will allow us to stay by the side of the Goddess forever. The only hell that you will be condemned to, ever, is one of your own making... the hell of having to live as that which you despise or condemn the most.
/grin
I'm sorry... I just HAD to.
You can't say that "you'll come back as something or someone of a higher station than you are now" you can't tell or promise someone that because you don't know that is what will definitely happen, it's kind of giving people false hope.
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