Quote:

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

No, I'm not trying to box and label you, I'm trying to find out whether you believe that the Almighty intervenes in the physical world in a way that supersedes or suspends the working of natural laws, for the express PURPOSE of inflicting punishment and teaching lessons. I'm not interested in whether you think He COULD do it. I want to know if you think He DOES do it, regularly and routinely.

What are jinns?

So are you saying that the command of the Almighty sometimes (often?) supersedes the normal working of physical processes to CAUSE disasters that would not happen (at that particular time and place) otherwise?

So how could we tell if or when the Almighty's guidance of natural processes suspends or supersedes the normal operation of natural laws? Or are you saying that although it definitely does happen, we have no way to tell whether any particular disaster is an example of it?

OK, so if the final judgment on the day of resurrection is for the purpose of meting out Divine justice, what's the point of these earthly punishments in the form of Divinely inflicted disasters?

I think I might be coming to understand your point of view and to comprehend what you are trying to say. If I do understand you correctly, it is the difference in our beliefs about the nature of the Almighty's character that makes it difficult for me to adopt your point of view as my own.

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Here are some examples which is confirmed in the Quran were punishments from the Almighty,but it was "natural disasters".
Quran 51: 38 to 46
"And in Mûsa (Moses) (too, there is a sign). When We sent him to Fir'aun (Pharaoh) with a manifest authority. But [Fir'aun (Pharaoh)] turned away (from Belief in might) along with his hosts, and said: "A sorcerer, or a madman." So We took him and his hosts, and dumped them into the sea, while he was to be blamed.
And in 'Ad (there is also a sign) when We sent against them the barren wind;
It spared nothing that it reached, but blew it into broken spreads of rotten ruins.
And in Thamûd (there is also a sign), when they were told: "Enjoy yourselves for a while!"
But they insolently defied the Command of their Lord, so the Sâ'iqah overtook them while they were looking. Then they were unable to rise up, nor could they help themselves.
(So were) the people of Nûh (Noah) before them. Verily, they were a people who were Fâsiqûn (rebellious, disobedient to Allâh)."
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Regarding Jinns
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/parano...tml#post586324
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I cannot tell you whether the natural process is superceded by the Almighty, I only know that all natural occurrings happen under His command and He knows what will happen in the future.So it is not like suddenly today He decides OK I am going to destroy such and such people,
The Almighty is "all wise" and "all aware", hence everything we see as future is all known to Him.And I believe each group of people has their appointed time and it cannot be delayed or hastened how much ever we wish,each persons time of death is known to the Almighty.
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About earthly punishments, these sometimes work as an expiation, I believe that if I fall ill, it is part of the Almighty's mercy and He maybe cancelling many of my sins and on the Day of Resurrection I maybe rewarded for my patience and prayer and faith in the Almighty even during hard times.(Does not mean I will not see a doctor or take medication for it):)

The Sun is hidden during the night and we are in darkness, that to me is a sign.
During eclipses when the planets align as such we are left with a spectacular view and a sign from the Almighty.
When the waves of the sea rise in a Tsunami and crashes inland yet only few die, in that is a sign for me as a believer. A whirlwind rages through a town which may kill some while sparing others, in that is a sign.
All these processes involve the Almighty and nothing even moves against His law except as I said free will of humans and jinns.
Each is a punishment for some and a sign for others,
Some who die may have been suffering before the calamity struck and they may have been spared any more heartaches,while those living learn lessons from loss and bereavement.

So if you are asking me to answer "Why" and "When" the Almighty deems it fit for a person to meet His death,then I do not know the answer to that.

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Regarding our differences and the difficulty to understand my point, you may be right in that I do not see the Almighty as human with human qualities.
He does not possess characteristics like humans or any other of His creations,He is unique in His characteristics.
Another thing I believe is that He deserves to be worshipped as One without setting up partners from among His created beings.
He is not revengeful as He gains nothing when we are in peril nor does He lose anything when we do wrong and turn to sin, it is us who are the losers.
And it is out of His mercy that He keeps sending warnings and showing signs that we may look and understand and not turn a blind eye or deaf ear and ignore all these things.:)

Well firm, your last post was disappointing. You're basically saying "because god says so/makes it happen". You are firmly entrenched in the dogma of your religion, why even bother asking questions about science? Can't we answer all your questions with "because god makes it happen"?

I mean, c'mon, "the sun is hidden during the night" and that is a sign that your god is causing these things?
" When the waves of the sea rise in a Tsunami and crashes inland yet only few die" - 300,000 deaths is only a few?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Well firm, your last post was disappointing. You're basically saying "because god says so/makes it happen". You are firmly entrenched in the dogma of your religion, why even bother asking questions about science? Can't we answer all your questions with "because god makes it happen"?

I mean, c'mon, "the sun is hidden during the night" and that is a sign that your god is causing these things?
" When the waves of the sea rise in a Tsunami and crashes inland yet only few die" - 300,000 deaths is only a few?

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NK,sorry to disappoint you, but you see my belief in the Creator does not diminish even if I keep asking and getting answers in science.

And about the signs I talked about are not scientific explanations, it is just to make a point that it does not take a disaster for me to realise God exists,I knew that a long time ago,but a natural disaster strenghthens my faith.
And just because I believe the Almighty controls things that exist in this universe does not mean that I should not learn how each natural process works.It is my duty to learn about nature which does not mean that I question the existence of a Creator.

And about the Tsunami, a tsunami I mentioned is not the Tsunami of 2004, it could be any of the waves that hit Japan every year.

And do not try to make it seem like I do not care or are belittling the suffering of so many human beings.I was a witness right in the middle of the Tsunami.I saw the people suffer their losses of property and family and who are still struggling to get their life in order.

I personally know a little girl who lost her mother in the wave and she is getting on with life with the help of my family and hers.This does not mean that I ask the Almighty "Why", I believe in His wisdom.

I am also really sad to see that you as a fair person is judging me and expecting me to have answers to all questions posed regarding belief.
I am a beleiver which does not mean I know what plans the Almighty has in store for you and me, in reference to natural disasters or even personal tragedies.
And I do not have to justify the way the whole world works in order to prove my faith.

And also sorry to see that you have me on a pedestal of sorts expecting me to be able to give satisfactory answers for all questions posed(especially regarding beliefs).I am human as you are and I have my strenghths and weaknesses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

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Regarding Jinns
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/parano...tml#post586324

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So they are invisible, but can transform themselves into (visible?) humans? Is there any reliable way to tell if a person you meet is actually a jinn in disguise? I can see that believing in them would add spice to ones life.
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

I cannot tell you whether the natural process is superceded by the Almighty, I only know that all natural occurrings happen under His command

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Well, if we have no way to tell whether the command of the Almighty ever deviates from or supersedes the usual operation of physical laws, I'd rather just interpret them all the same way.

Quote:

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About earthly punishments, these sometimes work as an expiation, I believe that if I fall ill, it is part of the Almighty's mercy and He maybe cancelling many of my sins and on the Day of Resurrection I maybe rewarded for my patience and prayer and faith in the Almighty even during hard times.(Does not mean I will not see a doctor or take medication for it):)

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Fascinating.

Quote:

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The Sun is hidden during the night and we are in darkness, that to me is a sign.
During eclipses when the planets align as such we are left with a spectacular view and a sign from the Almighty.
When the waves of the sea rise in a Tsunami and crashes inland yet only few die, in that is a sign for me as a believer. A whirlwind rages through a town which may kill some while sparing others, in that is a sign.

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I guess I really don't understand what you mean by "sign". If you simply mean taking physical events and processes as a reminder of some spiritual truth or belief, I can dig it. Much beyond that, I'm dubious.

Quote:

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And it is out of His mercy that He keeps sending warnings and showing signs that we may look and understand and not turn a blind eye or deaf ear and ignore all these things.:)

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Signs and warnings are where you see them, I guess. I don't see the intentional infliction of disaster and tragedy as consistent with the character of a kind and loving Father, and I don't worship or believe in a God who does such things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

.................. as consistent with the character of a kind and loving Father, and I don't worship or believe in a God who does such things.

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Therein lies our difference... :)

Well haven't posted here in awhile but I have a question. First I will say yes I am a Christian and no I won't judge you if you aren't. Okay so here's the question:

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? Aside from science and everything else why do YOU personal believe that there is no God? I'm just asking why do you believe what you do. What is your personal view and outloook. Way back in this forum someone had said that no one was asking what atheists believe. So now its your turn, why? I'm just really curious to hear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spiffyness101

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? ......What is your personal view and outloook.

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Hello spiffy:

I don't believe there is a God for the same reasons I don't believe there is a tooth fairy. I'm not making light of the entity YOU have a great deal of belief in. I'm just answering your question.

My personal views on life or how I conduct myself, has NOTHING to do with the above belief.

It's no more difficult than that.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rankrank55

They just don't...they see things in a more logical sense or whats logical to them perhaps. Some people just don't feel the need to believe in god...once we die we die and that's that.

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Precicesly, on the head

I agree with excon...

It's really pretty simple... just as easily as you believe in a god... I do not.

As much as I could try and give "reasons" it won't prevent people telling me my reasons are wrong and trying to back up why I should undoubtly believe in a god.

I just don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spiffyness101

Well haven't posted here in awhile but I have a question. First I will say yes I am a Christian and no I won't judge you if you aren't. Okay so heres the question:

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? Aside from science and everything else why do YOU personal believe that there is no God? I'm just asking why do you believe what you do. What is your personal view and outloook. Way back in this forum someone had said that no one was asking what atheists believe. So now its your turn, why? I'm just really curious to hear.

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I see no reason for me to believe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spiffyness101

Well haven't posted here in awhile but I have a question. First I will say yes I am a Christian and no I won't judge you if you aren't. Okay so heres the question:

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? Aside from science and everything else why do YOU personal believe that there is no God? I'm just asking why do you believe what you do. What is your personal view and outloook. Way back in this forum someone had said that no one was asking what atheists believe. So now its your turn, why? I'm just really curious to hear.

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Well for starters you could actually read all the posts in this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Well for starters you could actually read all the posts in this thread.

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I did want to suggest that...

I agree it seems to me impossible for there not to be a God.
There has to be a mastermind behind the order of nature.
DNA and everything has a coded number and the universe works in harmony
I say the 'Big Bang' was God saying, "LET there BE....!"
People laugh at the thought of God saying he made man from dirt but now they say that everything can be broke down to ALL DNA being the same it is just how it is structured.
In other words the same DNA makes dirt, bananas, monkeys, trees, grass, man, etc... BUT each thing, species has its own pattern.
There is sooooo much science in the Bible that man said different until they were proven wrong.
The Bible says the ocean has currents
Maury 'discovered' this
EagleSpeak: Sunday Ship History: "The Pathfinder of the Sea"

More science and the Bible
Science and the Bible

How do atheists address or deal with the issue of why there is [so much] pain and suffering?




Grace and Peace

Quote:

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silentrascal disagrees: The sarcasm was uncalled for.

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There is not one other person non this board that give out reddies (Disagrees) more than you. Whatever cult you are involved with it apparently involves arguing with everyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

How do atheists adress or deal with the issue of why there is [so much] pain and suffering?

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I'm an apatheist, not an atheist, but I just accept it--pain and suffering are facts of material life, not an "issue". What makes it an issue is believing that God could prevent it if he wanted to, or worse yet, causes it deliberately.

So is it because there is pain and suffering that atheists / agnostics don't believe in God, or at least a "good" one that is omnipotent?

Because how can an all powerful benevolent God allow this?

How does one know that a malevolent god is not the cause of pain and suffering?





Grace and Peace

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

So is it because there is pain and suffering that atheists / agnostics don't believe in God

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Nah, that's the sole reason by a long shot (and remember it's not just your God but any god). I can only speak for myself of course but my reasons have mainly to do with having travelled extensively and met great people regardless of faiths and met some very misguided people because of their faith (intolerance, preaching, hypocritical). Plus my education doesn't add with the fables of the bible. I chose to live my life on my own and am having a great time doing so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

So is it because there is pain and suffering that atheists / agnostics don't believe in God, or at least a "good" one that is omnipotent?

Because how can an all powerful benevolent God allow this?

How does one know that a malevolent god is not the cause of pain and suffering?





Grace and Peace

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Not 'just' because', I mean I see no real reason to believe there is one, OK the constant pain and suffering thing is kind of fuel for our fire not to believe, but still igo by what I can see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

So is it because there is pain and suffering that atheists / agnostics don't believe in God, or at least a "good" one that is omnipotent?

Because how can an all powerful benevolent God allow this?

How does one know that a malevolent god is not the cause of pain and suffering?





Grace and Peace

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There is not just "one" reason why we don't believe... just like there is not "one" sole reason why you do believe.

Thank you for your replies.



If there is no "provable" God,

It is easy to accept joy, pleasure , happiness but how so

Sadness, pain, suffering?

Is it "that's just the facts." and go on?








Grace and Peace

Hello again, in:

If I started considering the reasons I don't believe in Santa Clause, I'd crack myself up.

It's not difficult to understand how we feel. Sit down. Get yourself in a real serious frame of mine. Begin to consider the reasons you don't believe in the tooth fairy. Tell me you're not smiling. Death and destruction in the world have NOTHING to do with your belief in the tooth fairy, does it??

I know you think God is on a higher plain than the tooth fairy, but I don't.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

How do atheists adress or deal with the issue of why there is [so much] pain and suffering?

Grace and Peace

---

Certainly it would be easy to say, "Look at the pain and suffering in the world! There's PROOF there is no god! A loving god would NEVER let that happen!" But alas, that's a little petty (to me). That's like saying your "proof" for god is the goodness in the world - nothing else, just the goodness. It's not as simple as that.

I address pain and suffering the same way I address joy and happiness - it's part of life. People do horrible things to each other, but they also can be quite nice. Nature can do horrible things to people, but it too, can be quite nice. So to me, pain and suffering and joy and happiness in the world or in my life have no bearing on my lack of belief at all. Doesn't even come into the equation. The atheists I know all credit people to their actions, so if you are an alcoholic and you turn your life around, it's not "god" who saved you, you did it yourself. If you run into a time in your life where bad things happen to you, it's not "god" punishing you, it's the way things go, or it's because of the choices you made. Personal responsibility and accountability is big to me; I try not to blame someone for my wrongdoings and I certainly don't credit someone else for my accomplishments!

What you must remember for many atheists is that we have the feeling of "completeness" and fulfillment in our lives without a god. I know that's a tough thing for devout believers to fully understand, but it's true. I don't feel a void, but I understand many people would if they didn't have faith. Some people need religion and faith to make themselves feel whole; atheists, in general, do not. That's not to say one is better or right over the other, but simply different. I think I've written something similar to that pages and pages ago! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Thank you for your replies.

If there is no "provable" God,

it is easy to accept joy, pleasure , happiness but how so

sadness, pain, suffering?

Is it "that's just the facts." and go on?

Grace and Peace

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For me it is

A true religion isn't pretending... Just look for the right one! Invest before you can ever talk like that in general... religion isn't something simple and it needs a lot of investment before you can ever be happy believing in something and never forget: what you believe is always real (this goes for excon)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by taurusss

a true religion isn't pretending... Just look for the right one! invest before you can ever talk like that in general... religion isn't something simple and it needs a lot of investment before you can ever be happy believing in something and never forget: what you believe is always real (this goes for excon)

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Maybe I'm reading this wrong--but what makes you think that believing nothing is any less real than believing in some god? Atheism takes a lot of investment too--think of how hard it is to stand by your belief of no god when there are so many people pushing you to believe in one!

As long as you're happy, and don't harm others--what does it matter what people do and don't believe in anyway?

Ok, on a lighter note,


When an atheist hits their thumb with a hammer by accident or stubs their toe do they say
"science dam.t"
Or "darwin dam.t" ?


Or in reaction to something incredible or so fear inducing do you say'

"OH!"
"Oh my darwin!"
Or "Oh my science?" ;)




Grace and Peace

I think I would say Oh Chit!
Sorry.. I know this is a serious thread. But dang you guys, are you asking because you want to know or asking cause you want to start drama??
EDIT:::::
Never mind, I am going to stay out of this one...

No


No drama - I'll stop with the lighter stuff






Grace and Peace

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

As a believer in The Creator of the worlds, I have always wondered how an atheist comes to the conclusion that God is non existent ?
Please do not think that I am going to argue your points,just curious!!!:confused:

Thanks in advance.

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I personally don't believe in God or a greater power. We didn't evolve from Adam and Eve.We acually evolved from neanderthals. I believe reincarnation. I belive that when people die they turn into something beautiful that we see everyday. I'm not gonna believe in something I've never seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Ok, on a lighter note,


When an atheist hits thier thumb with a hammer by accident or stubs thier toe do they say
"science dam.t"
or "darwin dam.t" ?


Or in reaction to something incredible or so fear inducing do you say'

"OH!"
"Oh my darwin!"
or "Oh my science?" ;)

Grace and Peace

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I'll play nice! :)

I have a friend who used to say, "Me Dam.t!!!" That was pretty funny. :)

And I've got to say, depending on how bad I hurt myself, I might let a whole string of curses loose... Some include cursing god, though I suppose I could start saying, "Santa dam.t!". Nah, doesn't "feel" right... :)

I thought that Goddamnit came from the concept that God punishes with eternal damnation, and so you are asking God to damn whatever caused you to use the profanity, like that door you just stubbed your toe on or whatever, it should be damned forever for stubbing your toe!

Science, Santa and the tooth fairy are much more benevolent inventions, and have no need to punish with damnation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spiffyness101

Well haven't posted here in awhile but I have a question. First I will say yes I am a Christian and no I won't judge you if you aren't. Okay so heres the question:

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? Aside from science and everything else why do YOU personal believe that there is no God? I'm just asking why do you believe what you do. What is your personal view and outloook. Way back in this forum someone had said that no one was asking what atheists believe. So now its your turn, why? I'm just really curious to hear.

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If you think of all the questions to which a christian might answer "Because it's part of the divine plan", for instance, Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people, most of them will be a reason I choose not to believe in the biblical god.

Examples:
Suffering
Starvation
Racial Superiority (Not realistically, but in stereotyopes)
So called "Luck"
Greed
Vengefulness
War


But most of all, it's because of the people who DO go to church. Not all of them, probably not most of them in general, but most of them where I'm from don't practice what they preach. A prime example would be when I actually did attend services still, at my parent's church. We had a closed circuit TV connection to the nursing home next door. Every week, one family was supposed to help out getting all the old folks who wanted to go into the room, help with the music, bibles, and whatnot. Of course, rarely ever did they go. I started going there every week to help the guy from the church who organized it. I did this every Sunday, for about a year and a half. My sister kept having people tell her that I should really be in church, and that I wasn't a very good Christian for not going. One day when I actually went into the church rather than go to the nursing home, I got so many comments from people, including the pastor's wife, about how glad they were that I decided to come back to worship with them. I consider it pretty rude for them to be happy that I'm not helping anyone, and having people talk down on you, just because you're not in church, even though they should know you've been working at the nursing home because they're supposed to help out there too... well, it kindof makes you lose faith in people.

I'm fine with there being a god. It explains why in a closed system (IE Universe) the level of entropy decreases, and evolution happens. By god, I just mean an influential force, be it divine, alien, characterized through beliefs and feelings. Whatever the case, I believe there is something. Just not the same something that Christians believe is there.

I have to admit, I don't say Gods name in vane... ever... I even write OMGosh instead of OMG... There are guilt factors weighing in from when I was a kid... so I stick with OH CHIT!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Ok, on a lighter note,


When an atheist hits thier thumb with a hammer by accident or stubs thier toe do they say
"science dam.t"
or "darwin dam.t" ?


Or in reaction to something incredible or so fear inducing do you say'

"OH!"
"Oh my darwin!"
or "Oh my science?" ;)


Grace and Peace

---

Why would we its not blasphemy when atheists say 'god damm it'

There is no such thing as an athiests, so called atheists are agnostic. They just know if there is a God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beatlejuice

There is no such thing as an athiests, so called atheists are agnostic. They just know if there is a God.

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This reasoning method has been tried before and failed. I suggest not going down that route. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by retsoksirhc

If you think of all the questions to which a christian might answer "Because it's part of the divine plan", for instance, Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people, most of them will be a reason I choose not to believe in the biblical god.

Examples:
Suffering
Starvation
Racial Superiority (Not realistically, but in stereotyopes)
So called "Luck"
Greed
Vengefulness
War


But most of all, it's because of the people who DO go to church. Not all of them, probably not most of them in general, but most of them where I'm from don't practice what they preach. A prime example would be when I actually did attend services still, at my parent's church. We had a closed circuit TV connection to the nursing home next door. Every week, one family was supposed to help out getting all the old folks who wanted to go into the room, help with the music, bibles, and whatnot. Of course, rarely ever did they go. I started going there every week to help the guy from the church who organized it. I did this every sunday, for about a year and a half. My sister kept having people tell her that I should really be in church, and that I wasn't a very good Christian for not going. One day when I actually went into the church rather than go to the nursing home, I got so many comments from people, including the pastor's wife, about how glad they were that I decided to come back to worship with them. I consider it pretty rude for them to be happy that I'm not helping anyone, and having people talk down on you, just because you're not in church, even though they should know you've been working at the nursing home because they're supposed to help out there too...well, it kindof makes you lose faith in people.

I'm fine with there being a god. It explains why in a closed system (IE Universe) the level of entropy decreases, and evolution happens. By god, I just mean an influential force, be it divine, alien, characterized through beliefs and feelings. Whatever the case, I believe there is somthing. Just not the same somthing that Christians believe is there.

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The reason why God allows suffering is because God can not go against his word. It is impossible for him to lie or go against His word. In the Bible when God created man he said " Let us create them in our likeness and let us give them dominion over the earth" Because of this statement God Has only given man/physical beings the ability to make an effect on the earth. That means that no spiritual beings God, angels, demons etc can do anything on earth unless a Human is envolved. That is why through out the bible what ever God did he did through a man. That is why when Demons want to do any evil on earth they possess a man inorder to do so. That is why God has called us Christians to feed the poor and clothe the naked in His name because God can not just stick His hands out of the sky and hand out clothes and feed hungry people. He does Good through his people because he has given US dominion over the earth and God is a God of principle. He said His word is greater than He is and therefore he can not make a declariation and later go against it. So we as human have created the mess on this earth and it is up to us to change it and help the suffering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beatlejuice

That is why throught out the bible what ever God did he did through a man.

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What about the burning bush? The snake that talks?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

If there is no "provable" God,

it is easy to accept joy, pleasure , happiness but how so

sadness, pain, suffering?

Is it "that's just the facts." and go on?

---

I'm sure it's harder to accept sadness, pain, and suffering than to accept joy and pleasure no matter what you believe about supernatural beings. But trying to reconcile a belief in a personal and all-powerful God with the fact of our own suffering just adds a conceptual dimension to the problem.

In my own times of loss and disappointment, I haven't found a belief in (that kind of) God to be very helpful in reaching a state of acceptance. Seeing life from a perspective where joy and sorrow are equally necessary and useful in learning wisdom and compassion, has helped at times, when I could attain that view.