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    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 947, Reputation: 55
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    #21

    Jan 17, 2022, 09:10 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    yes I know James in NY is going after his business activities
    Georgia is investigating Trump's felonious attempt to rig the election in that state.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #22

    Jan 17, 2022, 04:37 PM
    All the Georgia DA has to prove is criminal intent beyond a reasonable doubt Even if Trump's call to Brad Raffensperger was somehow in violation of Georgia law ;which I doubt it was. Trump believed he was getting hosed in Georgia and he asked Raffensperger to find the votes he believed were due him .
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #23

    Jan 17, 2022, 05:35 PM
    Nice spin as usual but we all know the dufus wanted Raffensperger to lie, cheat, and steal for him and he and his sycophants would do the rest.
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    #24

    Jan 17, 2022, 06:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Even if Trump's call to Brad Raffensperger was somehow in violation of Georgia law ;which I doubt it was.
    You doubt it was? Trump asked Raffensperger to change the number of votes to the exact number of votes he needed to give him the victory. You doubt it violated the law?

    Trump believed he was getting hosed in Georgia and he asked Raffensperger to find the votes he believed were due him .
    Elections are not determined by how or what the candidate believes. They are determined by how many votes the candidate receives. When the candidate rejects the number of votes counted and asks the secretary of state to change the vote totals to accord with what he believes, he is violating the law - state and federal.

    Does that really need to be said here?
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #25

    Jan 18, 2022, 06:22 AM
    You doubt it was?
    Yes because Trump believed he was being screwed and asked him to find the votes Trump believed were stolen. You really don't get intent. Trump's state of mind is a key factor ,

    Elections are not determined by how or what the candidate believes. They are determined by how many votes the candidate receives.
    Clueless Joe said that it was who counts the votes that is determinative
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #26

    Jan 18, 2022, 06:34 AM
    Meanwhile in Wisconsin a judge has ruled that drop boxes and harvesting that was crucial in swinging the state to Clueless are in violation of state law and may not be used in the upcoming mid term elections .

    "It's all good and nice, but there's no authority to do it," Bohren said of the use of drop boxes.

    Election absentee ballot drop boxes can't be used in Wisconsin: Judge (jsonline.com)

    State law is clear about absentee ballots It allows for only two methods of returning an absentee ballot: Through the mail or in person at the municipal clerk’s office. Nowhere does it allow for a ballot to be dropped off in a drop box.

    The law also clearly states no person “may receive a ballot from or give a ballot to a person other than the election official in charge.”
    Wisconsin Legislature: 12.13(3)
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #27

    Jan 18, 2022, 07:02 AM
    also in Wisconsin.... Wisconsin Election Commission (WEC)violated their laws by instructing nursing home staffers to assist patients in filling out ballots ;a move financed by Zuck Bucks.In March 2020, Governor Evers declared a public health emergency due to covid. WEC prohibited special voting deputies from entering nursing homes and residential care facilities in violation of the statutes I linked above which [explicitly provides that special voting deputies are the only people allowed to help nursing home residents vote. WEC petitioned Evers to make an exception. He refused . But WEC voted to ignore the Governor and allow the change in a clear violation of the law. The amount of control that may be exerted by a staff member over a patient is immeasurable, especially if that patient has declined mental health

    The Racine County Sheriff office is investigating. Sheriff Christopher Schmaling and Investigator Lt. Michael Luell said they found seven individuals living at a Mount Pleasant nursing home who had severe declines in mental health and voted absentee in the election. Schmaling and Luell accused the WEC of failing to enforce oversight of absentee voting in nursing homes, since the WEC voted to waive a law the law.
    Vos: Elections officials 'probably' committed crimes | Elections | journaltimes.com
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 947, Reputation: 55
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    #28

    Jan 18, 2022, 09:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Yes because Trump believed he was being screwed and asked him to find the votes Trump believed were stolen. You really don't get intent. Trump's state of mind is a key factor
    Not true. That's like saying the murderer believed he was doing good so he's not guilty. The defendant would be clearly considered crazy. Trump is clearly mentally unbalanced.

    it was who counts the votes that is determinative
    Wrong again. The determining factor is the candidate who receives the most votes.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #29

    Jan 18, 2022, 09:31 AM
    I'm just saying what state law in Georgia says .

    For a jury to convict a defendant of a crime, prosecutors must establish mens rea, a Latin term that means the person had a guilty mind, and do so with highest standard of proof: “beyond a reasonable doubt.” By that standard, jurors must acquit if they believe there’s any other reasonable explanation for a defendant’s behavior beyond that presented by the prosecution.
    it was who counts the votes that is determinative


    Wrong again. The determining factor is the candidate who receives the most votes.

    I was using Clueless Joe's own words .

    It’s no longer about who gets to vote; it’s about making it harder to vote. It’s about who gets to count the vote and whether your vote counts at all.

    Remarks by President Biden on Protecting the Right to Vote | The White House

    I agree with him . He is just channeling his inner Joseph Stalin .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 947, Reputation: 55
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    #30

    Jan 18, 2022, 09:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I'm just saying what state law in Georgia says .

    For a jury to convict a defendant of a crime, prosecutors must establish mens rea, a Latin term that means the person had a guilty mind, and do so with highest standard of proof: “beyond a reasonable doubt.” By that standard, jurors must acquit if they believe there’s any other reasonable explanation for a defendant’s behavior beyond that presented by the prosecution.
    There is absolutely no dispute that Trump's behavior was criminal beyond a reasonable doubt. How far do you think he will get by offering his belief as a defense?

    To repeat: The winner is determined by the number of votes he receives. To say it is determined by the votes counted is self-evident. It is also determined by the number of voters who voted. It is also determined by who runs for the office. If there is fraud in the counting, it is far more likely to be done by Republican counters.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 4,332, Reputation: 156
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    #31

    Jan 18, 2022, 09:45 AM
    If there is fraud in the counting, it is far more likely to be done by Republican counters.
    Any evidence of that?
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    Athos Posts: 947, Reputation: 55
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    #32

    Jan 18, 2022, 09:49 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Any evidence of that?

    There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, will refuse to understand.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 4,332, Reputation: 156
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    #33

    Jan 18, 2022, 10:11 AM
    Oh my. I've upset him again. Sorry about that.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #34

    Jan 20, 2022, 04:51 AM
    There is absolutely no dispute that Trump's behavior was criminal beyond a reasonable doubt. How far do you think he will get by offering his belief as a defense?
    Beyond a reasonable doubt . Trump's state of mind is key . A jury would have to believe he intentionally tried to steal the vote rather than his oft stated claim that he was being screwed .


    To repeat: The winner is determined by the number of votes he receives. To say it is determined by the votes counted is self-evident. It is also determined by the number of voters who voted. It is also determined by who runs for the office. If there is fraud in the counting, it is far more likely to be done by Republican counters.
    Then why did Clueless Joe pivot from the false claims of Republicans trying to prevent people from voting to his more recent incoherent rant about whether the votes will be counted (his words not mine ....).

    As the courts settled issues the Trump campaign raised in 2020; it can also settle issues raised in 2022/2024. The attempts of the Dems to destroy the process of how the Senate operates so they can force on the nation an unconstitutional national election is the real threat to the democratic system of the country.

    The Dems go so far as claiming requiring voter ID as something that undermines democracy. Whenever it has been challenged it has been ruled constitutional and the vast majority of Americans want voter ID.

    Dems claim that only federalization shows faith in the democratic process without recognizing that the state laws are the product of the democratic process Joe's own home state has laws as restrictive of any he speaks of those red states have. But you never hear him saying the Dems of Delaware are undermining democracy.

    The truth of the 2020 election is that it was the Dems than undermined democracy by changing state laws by fiat that were adopted by the representatives of the people of the states.
    Joe's denouncing of Georgia laws adopted by the people of the state is more undermining of democracy. Joe's casting doubt about the integrity of the November election is no different than Trump casting doubt about the election prior to 2020. So, is Joe conspiring to steal the mid-term election?

    "Do you still believe the upcoming election will be fairly conducted and the results will be legitimate?

    "BIDEN: "It all depends depends on whether or not we're able to make the case to the American people that some of this is being set up to alter the outcome..."
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 947, Reputation: 55
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    #35

    Jan 20, 2022, 11:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Beyond a reasonable doubt . Trump's state of mind is key . A jury would have to believe he intentionally tried to steal the vote rather than his oft stated claim that he was being screwed .
    Absolutely NOT true! A defendant BELIEVING he is innocent is not a defense. No jury in the world would acquit a perp for that reason.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,332, Reputation: 156
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    #36

    Jan 20, 2022, 11:49 AM
    State of mind relates to the defendant's motive at the time an action occurs, and not what they presently believe.

    Mens Rea refers to criminal intent. The literal translation from Latin is "guilty mind." The plural of mens rea is mentes reae. A mens rea ​ refers to the state of mind statutorily required in order to convict a particular defendant of a particular crime.
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens...icular%20crime.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #37

    Jan 20, 2022, 12:51 PM
    Unless Trump were to admit that he intended to illegally interfere with election results, there would be no direct evidence about his state of mind. Other evidence would be a witness of Trump saying behind closed doors that he knew he had lost the election. Inference up the kazoo doesn't change that threshold
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 947, Reputation: 55
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    #38

    Jan 20, 2022, 03:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Unless Trump were to admit that he intended to illegally interfere with election results, there would be no direct evidence about his state of mind. Other evidence would be a witness of Trump saying behind closed doors that he knew he had lost the election. Inference up the kazoo doesn't change that threshold
    If you would stop watching FOX and OAN, you would have seen and heard Trump's actual deeds in trying to subvert the Georgia election. It's all on tape. AND witnesses!
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #39

    Jan 20, 2022, 04:08 PM
    What is OAN ? I have seen the tapes and it is clear Trump was looking for the votes he thought were stolen from him . Intent really does matter according to Georgia law.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,332, Reputation: 156
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    #40

    Jan 20, 2022, 04:49 PM
    Evidence of a compliant press. At this week's news conference, there were zero questions about crime, and zero questions about the southern border. None.

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