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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #21

    Jan 14, 2022, 11:09 AM
    I'm afraid it is too late . The time for this was in the Yeltsin era . I know I have a minority opinion these days since both parties love to demonize Putin and love having that Russian bogyman .

    But I take my view on the expansion of NATO post Soviet collapse from the architect of the American policy of Soviet containment and perhaps the foremost expert of Russia in his time ;George Kennan. He called the decision to expand NATO
    “the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era.”

    Opinion | A Fateful Error - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

    Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking.

    It was also a fatal error in that it killed the possibility of transforming Russia from an enemy to a partner .

    Common interests ? Let's start with the war against jihadistan. Russia has them on their border . I can't help but think that there would've been a better outcome had Russia not been competing in the ummah for influence.





    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #22

    Jan 14, 2022, 04:08 PM
    The problem with your logic Tom is confusing what Vlad wants and what the Russian people want. We really don't know either but we do know Vlad has control of the money and the people and plans to keep it. There is seldom a good option for dealing with his ilk. The Ukraine is worth trillions and of course Vlad wants it back. Obviously the Ukrainians don't want that having sacrificed to be independent. We know that feeling. As we were helped should we not help others achieve the same thing?

    How easily to forget where we came from.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #23

    Jan 14, 2022, 04:48 PM
    Tal this response is for you too ......

    Bottom line here is that Putin wants to re-establish the Soviet union, Crimea was a starter, the 'Stans will be next.
    He's ex-KGB and just cant let go of such power..


    And how many of your countrymen are you willing to sacrifice for Ukraine ?
    Question are you familiar with the Azov movement in Ukraine and the influence they have on Ukraine's actions ? I wonder why the western media down plays this ?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #24

    Jan 14, 2022, 04:55 PM
    I'm doing my homework.

    https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,332, Reputation: 156
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    #25

    Jan 14, 2022, 04:56 PM
    The problem with your logic Tom is confusing what Vlad wants and what the Russian people want. We really don't know either...
    If you don't know either one, and you just said you don't, then how did you determine Tom's logic was confusing? Maybe it's your understanding that is lacking???
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #26

    Jan 14, 2022, 04:59 PM
    I enjoy poking Tom for more information. Helps my understanding. He's probably sharpening his stick before he pokes back.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,332, Reputation: 156
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    #27

    Jan 14, 2022, 05:26 PM
    I think I’ll let you two do the poking. Sounds too painful for me!
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #28

    Jan 15, 2022, 04:24 AM
    It is not difficult to determine what either Putin or the Russian people want . Putin is very upfront and the Russian people have culture ,identity ,and a long history that is pretty much unchanged since the dawn of the nation .
    The west falsely sees Putin forging a new Russian identity . But in reality ,Russia is the same as it ever was since the beginning when Ivan became Tsar . We believe Nicholas II was the last .But even though the title changed ;Russian rulership did not . All the Communist leaders were tsars and Putin is a tsar.

    In essence Putin is a creature of Russia. He doesn't shape Russia .Russia shapes him .

    The flow of Russian history is unchanged .They believe in national destiny as much as we do. They believe in Russian exceptionalism as much as we believe in American exceptionalism . When the cold war ended ,instead of an open hand of friendship we humiliated them . One of Putin's chief goals is to restore Russian pride .

    I have already mentioned the threat Russia feels from western Europe . They consider themselves the equal of Europe .They tried to create a Russian European identity going back to the days of Peter the Great . Even Putin at one time expressed desired for Russian incorporation into NATO . But he did not think Russia should wait in line .

    George Robertson led NATO between 1999 and 2003 He recalls a meeting with Putin when Putin said 'When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ His reply was ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ Putin responded ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’

    Russia's Putin wanted to join NATO in early 2000s: Former chief | Daily Sabah

    “They wanted to be part of that secure, stable prosperous west that Russia was out of at the time,”

    In another event, Putin told David Frost in a BBC interview that his country may join NATO “if and when Russia’s views are taken into account as those of an equal partner.” Shortly before he was inaugurated for the highest post, the Russian president said that he doesn't see the military alliance as the threat of an archrival.
    “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilized world,” Putin said.

    Russia's desire to join Europe is unchanged since the 17th century . To this day they have been rejected . But just imagine how it would've been different if Russia was allied with us in the fight against jihadistan . Imagine Russian cooperation in our goal of keeping the radicals in Iran from obtaining nukes and their goal of becoming regional hegemons. You think Russia wants a nuclear armed jihadist nation on their border ?

    Anyway Russia is also linked to Europe by religion . But even there the views clash. Europe's Christianity is (I'll be kind ) postmodern. The eastern church is more traditional .The Kremlin wants to be seen as a custodian of true Christian values, in opposition to the postmodern liberal interpretations espoused by the countries of the European Union.

    In preserving it's sphere of influence that preceded the Soviet Union ,Russia believes it has a claim of geopolitical , cultural ,spiritual ,and civilizational existential interests to defend . I did not mention the Monroe Doctrine lightly .Putin mentions it all the time . The US claims an authority to defend it's interests along it's borders (except apparently it's Mexico soft underbelly .But that is a different discussion) . Russia claims the same authority . NATO expansion is the real issue and threat .
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 443, Reputation: 5
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    #29

    Jan 15, 2022, 01:25 PM
    Wonder what America would be like if not for Lafayette?
    Samuel Whittemore

    One of the first heroes of the war, Samuel Whittemore was also the oldest. An astounding 78 at the start of the Revolutionary War, Whittemore had a long military career before the war broke out. He fought in the French and Indian Wars and helped capture the strategic Fortress of Louisbourg twice over his years of service and though the evidence is scarce, he seems to have retired in his 60’s as a captain of Dragoons.

    Immediately after the Battles of Lexington and Concord, the first engagements of the war, the British marched back to Boston, dealing with skirmish Americans all the way. Whittemore was working his fields when he noticed the British marching close to his land. A British relief force had been sent to speed the main force’s retreat and was fast approaching Whittemore’s town.

    Not about to stand for any Brits marching through his land, Whittemore loaded his musket and pistols and set up to ambush the Brits. As they came close, he shot and killed one with his rifle and then drew his pistols and killed two more men. Then, at 78 years old, Samuel Whittemore drew his sword and charged the masses of soldiers.

    Whittemore didn’t make it far before he was shot in the face and bayonetted 13 times. As the British cleared the area Whittemore’s friends found him in a pool of his own blood, trying to reload his musket. Whittemore was brought to the doctor and pronounced a lost cause. His loved ones waited for Samuel to die, but he just didn’t die.

    After a lengthy recovery, Whittemore fully recovered. He had horrible scarring across his face from the gunshot but would otherwise live a normal life for another 20 years. Whitmore would live to see the end of the war, the ratifying of the Constitution and even the beginnings of the quintessential sport of baseball. We know little of Whittemore’s specific military history, but his brave stand at the beginning of the war inspired thousands and certainly qualifies him as a hero of the revolution.

    Then we have; Peter Francisco, Benedict Arnold, and many others.
    Arnold saved the Revolution...Having been thrown into a stockade by his commanding officer. Breaking out, Rallying the men...the rest is history.

    They had something to fight for...being of one body, mind, and spirit. On paper, there is no way, no how the Continental army should have ever Won!

    "what does Russia Really want" Eh, Manufacturing, developing new weapons...desiring to show/prove they have the most muscular Armed Forces? If you spend $$$ on a new car you're going to want to use it. If you spend $$$ building up your countries armed forces, your gonna put it to use.

    "What does Russia Really want"
    Whatcha want, want really, really want want!
    I think they just want to have fun (seriously)!!!

    There ain't no figuring this one out...carry on.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #30

    Jan 15, 2022, 02:07 PM
    Thank you ,The Whittemore story was in the recesses of my mind . That was the spirit of the patriot . They endured Valley Forge at a time that 'try men's souls ' (The American Crisis Thomas Paine ) This reinforces the belief that with or without the assistance of the French ,the outcome was inevitable.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #31

    Jan 17, 2022, 06:48 AM
    UPDATE

    It would be a good idea if they would start actively working to eliminate the need for Russian natural gas.


    Funny you should say that . The one sanction I would've kept was the sanctions on Nord Stream 2

    That would be in the US interests because concurrently we could drill baby drill and export LNG to Europe . The same people who want us to "sanction" the [email protected] out of Russia in leu of doing anything to actually stop them are the ones that weaken the greatest strategic threat we have against the "gas station with an army "

    As for our allies in Europe ; they would be the first ones to look for work arounds against tough sanctions
    There are 55 Senators willing to sanction the Russian company in charge of the Nord Stream II pipeline . Why has it not happened yet ? Because the Dems are blocking it with a filibuster . lol there is a separate irony in them using a filibuster as they also argue for it's elimination .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,332, Reputation: 156
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    #32

    Jan 17, 2022, 07:13 AM
    I'm sure Mr. Biden has thought it through very carefully. [SARC]
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #33

    Jan 17, 2022, 06:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    UPDATE



    There are 55 Senators willing to sanction the Russian company in charge of the Nord Stream II pipeline . Why has it not happened yet ? Because the Dems are blocking it with a filibuster . lol there is a separate irony in them using a filibuster as they also argue for it's elimination .
    I wouldn't jump the gun yet, or assume what the Russian people want given Vlad's suppression of his political enemies. Obviously Vlad wants mo' money, mo' power and will crush all who stand in his way.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...line-quicktake
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #34

    Jan 18, 2022, 03:28 AM
    The people of Russia put up with their leaders until they show weakness (see Nicholas II ;Gorby ;Yeltsin ) But ;if what you say is true then why bother caring what the Russian people want ? Do we ask what the people of North Korea want when dealing with lil Kim ?

    It is not about money or power . He has that already .It is more about respect and security . His concerns about NATO may be a little over the top because NATO is a bunch of p+ssies who at best can be considered a weak defensive force that relies almost totally on the US for muscle . But historically the threat of Western Europe to the security of Russia is real. 24 million Russians died the last time they miscalculated the threat from the West .

    However, Ben is right in that the news from Kazakstan changes the equation . Does Putin want what amounts to insufficient troops to mount an effective offensive ,tied up on the Western frontier when there is a growing threat ;with the shameful retreat of America , threatening Russia's soft underbelly ?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,332, Reputation: 156
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    #35

    Jan 18, 2022, 05:37 AM
    there is a separate irony in them using a filibuster as they also argue for it's elimination .
    It's what happens when the quest for power is greater than the respect for character.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #36

    Jan 18, 2022, 03:14 PM
    how pathetic is NATO ?

    Putin must be shaking in his boots about a NATO response to his mobilization on the Ukraine border,

    UK delivered anti-tank defensive weapons to Ukraine but had to take a circuitous route when evidently Germany denied them access to fly over German air space. Germany denies it of course ;but there is no other reason why UK planes would need to fly around Germany .



    btw on the Senate floor they renamed Nord Stream II as the Molotov–Ribbentrop pipeline
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 947, Reputation: 55
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    #37

    Jan 19, 2022, 12:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    It is not difficult to determine what either Putin or the Russian people want . Putin is very upfront and the Russian people have culture ,identity ,and a long history that is pretty much unchanged since the dawn of the nation .

    The west falsely........................................ etc etc etc ....................... civilizational existential interests to defend . I did not mention the Monroe Doctrine lightly .Putin mentions it all the time . The US claims an authority to defend it's interests along it's borders (except apparently it's Mexico soft underbelly .But that is a different discussion) . Russia claims the same authority . NATO expansion is the real issue and threat .
    Excellent history lesson. I just got around to reading it thoroughly (after originally only scanning it due to bad NE weather - snow, ice, etc etc). You made several good points. I have always believed that Russia exchanged one stream of Czars for another in 1917. Putin is in that line.

    I deleted some of your post to not use up bandwidth for easily found original post above
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #38

    Jan 19, 2022, 05:02 PM
    Thank you .

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